2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

[JLB]

If there is an "or else" attached, i.e. to avoid eternal condemnation, then it's just another "law" to earn salvation. Works salvation by any other name, i.e. obedience or else, is still works salvation.

It's called the law of faith.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

The law of faith says this; Faith without works is dead! James 2:20


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The message is that they had already died and were "in Christ", [The Ark] and were saved from God's judgement. The Ark being a type of Christ.

While it is true that the Ark is a type of Christ, no one from the OT were placed in Christ. That is reserved for those who believe since the First Incarnation. Being positionally "in Christ" involves the sealing ministry with the Holy Spirit, and we know from the OT that very few believers received the Holy Spirit.

Christ is the One who actually went down and was raised again, and be "in Him" is what saves us.

Yes.

We were Baptized in the "likeness" of His death, and the likeness of His resurrection, "IF" we obey His command to be Baptized.

The "baptism that saves us" is NOT the water that we may be dunked in. The "baptism that now saves us" (1 Pet 3:21) refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does NOT involve water.

Matt 3:11 - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:8 - “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16 - John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John the baptist was contrasting his water baptism with Jesus' dry baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Romans 6:3

Clearly a reference to dry baptism.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5

Ditto

It's the obedience of faith, the doing of what God says, that activates and makes your faith alive and able to function and produce what it was intended to produce; ie a divine result.

One who believes in Christ already has an "active faith". It doesn't need to be made alive.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2
These also did not "get wet", as you say, but remained dry.

It was the Egyptians that "got wet" and drowned, thereby suffering the Judgement of God.

Correct.

If the children of Israel would have "disobeyed" the Baptism in water [sea] as you teach, then they would have perished at the hands of the enemy.

They weren't baptised by getting wet in the sea. They went through the sea DRY, just as the 8 in the Ark were DRY from the flood.

Those who got wet, both in the Exodus and the flood, all died. So much for water baptism saving anyone. It sure didn't save the world nor the Egyptian army.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's called the law of faith.
The law of faith says this; Faith without works is dead! James 2:20 JLB

OK, we all know the rules of the forum. When a claim is made, one must provide Scripture that supports the claim.

So, where is the verse that states what the "law of faith" says. There is nothing about the "law of faith" in James 2:20.

Here are some verses regarding the law of works contrasted with faith:

Rom 3:27, 28, 4:13, 14, 16, Phil 3:9

None of them state anything close to James 2:20.

 

[Jim Parker]

Water baptism is for obedience, not for salvation!

Jhn 14:15 (RSV) If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:23-24 (RSV) If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

If you do not obey Jesus then He is not your Lord and you are not saved.

Luk 6:46-49 (RSV) Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you? Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.


So which person are you?

Rom 6:3-7 (RSV) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin.

In baptism, we are united to Christ in His death and are resurrected to new and eternal life.

But, you say that is not necessary for a Christian! You know better than Paul!!!! Astonishing!!!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Jhn 14:15 (RSV) If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:23-24 (RSV) If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

If you do not obey Jesus then He is not your Lord and you are not saved.

None of the verses you provide here say that loving Christ results in salvation. It's placing one's trust in Him for salvation that results in salvation.

Luk 6:46-49 (RSV) Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you? Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.


So which person are you?

I'm a saved person. I have placed my full trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Rom 6:3-7 (RSV) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin.

In baptism, we are united to Christ in His death and are resurrected to new and eternal life.

This baptism is the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit as taught in Eph 1;13,14 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Key words in these 2 profound verses:
"having believed" results in being "sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit"
The "Holy Spirit is a PROMISE, given as a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers)"

But, you say that is not necessary for a Christian! You know better than Paul!!!! Astonishing!!!!

No, I know WHAT Paul meant by "baptism". He was referring to the dry baptism of the Holy Spirit, not the water dunking that it seems most everything thinks he was referring to.

Don't you remember what John the baptist said about the difference between his baptisms and Jesus' baptisms?

Matt 3:11 - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:8 - “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16 - John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John the baptist was contrasting his water baptism with Jesus' dry baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Works salvation by any other name, i.e. obedience or else, is still works salvation.

AAAhhhh the ole hyper-grace doctrine...

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Strong's G4100 - pisteuō

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
      3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   
   1. to be intrusted with a thing
      

Unbelief is disobedience.
Disobedience is unbelief.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

None of the verses you provide here say that loving Christ results in salvation. It's placing one's trust in Him for salvation that results in salvation./QUOTE]
SO, according to you, can a person hate Crist and be saved?

I'm a saved person. I have placed my full trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Then why do you say that people don't need to be baptized when the one you claim to trust commanded that everyone who believes be baptized? If you trust Jesus Christ, then why don't you believe him?

This baptism is the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit as taught in Eph 1;13,14 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Great. Jesus commanded that you be baptized. You tell people not to bother. That suggests to me that Jesus is NOT your lord.

No, I know WHAT Paul meant by "baptism". He was referring to the dry baptism of the Holy Spirit, not the water dunking that it seems most everything thinks he was referring to.

The word baptism refers to being dunked.
The Ethiopian eunuch was baptized IN WATER. Act 8:38
The household of Cornelius was baptized in water AFTER they received the Holy Spirit. Act 10:47
The word translated "baptize" is the Koine Greek word βαπτίζω. (baptizō) It means: to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe.

BUt you don't have to believe that. You can just continue to make up your own stuff.

Don't you remember what John the baptist said about the difference between his baptisms and Jesus' baptisms?
John the baptist was contrasting his water baptism with Jesus' dry baptism with the Holy Spirit.

John's Baptism was not being buried with Christ in His death as Christian baptism is according to Paul. John's baptism was a Jewish baptism of repentance.

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

If anyone is not baptized in water (assuming that it isn't impossible as it was for the thief on the cross) then:
- he is not baptized into Christ Jesus or into His death
- he is not buried with Christ and will not be raised to walk in newness of life
- he is not united with Christ in a death like His and
- he will not be united with Christ in a resurrection like His.

How is it that the Holy Spirit has not led you into that truth?

 

[smaller]

It's called the law of faith.
The law of faith says this; Faith without works is dead! James 2:20
JLB

When believers turn N.T. precepts into laws with penalties they are promoting works salvation, which I do NOT adhere to. Nobody "works" their way into heaven.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[FreeGrace]

AAAhhhh the ole hyper-grace doctrine...

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Strong's G4100 - pisteuō

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
      3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

Unbelief is disobedience.
Disobedience is unbelief.JLB

Correct. And John 5:24 teaches eternal security. Those who have believed HAVE eternal life, WILL NOT come into condemnation, and HAVE PASSED from death to life.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace said: ↑
None of the verses you provide here say that loving Christ results in salvation. It's placing one's trust in Him for salvation that results in salvation.

SO, according to you, can a person hate Crist and be saved?

A person IS SAVED when they place their trust in Him for salvation. Why do you ask such silly questions? I am unaware of anyone who has placed their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation to turn around and hate Him. What would they be hating Him for anyway?

Eph 1;13,14 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Great. Jesus commanded that you be baptized. You tell people not to bother. That suggests to me that Jesus is NOT your lord.

Where did I tell anyone "not to bother"?? Please STOP lying about what I tell people. What's the matter with you anyway?

And why did you totally ignore the verses I gave that support my view?

Act 8:38
The household of Cornelius was baptized in water AFTER they received the Holy Spirit. Act 10:47
The word translated "baptize" is the Koine Greek word βαπτίζω. (baptizō) It means: to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe.

The word was used in connection with dipping cloth in a dye. It came to mean to be identified with. Which is exactly how Paul used the word in 1 Cor 10:1-3. 1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea (though DRY); 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food

Being baptized into Moses "in the cloud" and "in the sea" were NOT water baptisms. The reference to the cloud is a reference to the Shekinah Glory, which was the cloud by day and the fire by night. And the Jews were identified with the Shekinah Glory. And being baptized in the sea means they were identified as going through the sea DRY, which was a miracle by God.

It was the Egyptian army that got "dunked" and DIED.

The Jews were identified WITH Moses

That's what I'm talking about.

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

If anyone is not baptized in water (assuming that it isn't impossible as it was for the thief on the cross) then:
- he is not baptized into Christ Jesus or into His death
- he is not buried with Christ and will not be raised to walk in newness of life
- he is not united with Christ in a death like His and
- he will not be united with Christ in a resurrection like His.

How is it that the Holy Spirit has not led you into that truth?

Your comments here just illustrate how much you do not understand the difference between John's kind of baptism, which included water, and the baptism of Jesus by the Holy Spirit, which does NOT include water.

I'm not even sure you'd want to understand the difference, given what you've posted here. iow, your mind is made up that every mention of "baptizo" means to dunk in water.

Yet, Peter mentioned the ark and 8 people who were saved through water. Notice that he didn't say "saved by water". It was the rest of humanity that got dunked and DIED. Not saved.

So much for dunking in water as a mode of salvation. Nope. It's definitely a mode for dying. Proven by the Egyptian army during the Exodus, and during Noah's flood.

Everyone who was immersed in water DIED as a result. Yet the Bible speaks of the ones who survived the flood and the Red Sea didn't get wet or die. They were SAVED.

I believe you need to re-think your views of what baptism is all about.

In fact, the Bible notes 7 different baptisms, some wet and some dry.

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/7-baptisms-in-the-bible/

The interesting thing is that all of them are about being identified with someone or something.

 

[Jim Parker]

When believers turn N.T. precepts into laws with penalties they are promoting works salvation, which I do NOT adhere to. Nobody "works" their way into heaven.

That is absolutely true.
We were created to do good works so when we do them we're only doing what we were designed to do.
BUT:
Rom 2:6-10 (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

And, when god comes to judge, according to Jesus' own words found at Matthew 25:31-46, He will separate the saved from the lost according to what they did or did not DO.

Mat 25:31-46 (RSV)
When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It's the fulfillment of what Jesus said at Jhn 5:28-29; "... the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."

And THAT, my "faith and nothing else" brothers and sisters, is a clear description of salvation based on your WORKS. :shock :yes

 

[Jim Parker]

FreeGrace said: ↑
None of the verses you provide here say that loving Christ results in salvation. It's placing one's trust in Him for salvation that results in salvation.

Ah so! You have to place your trust in Jesus. That would be salvation by what you do (place your trust) or by works.

A person IS SAVED when they place their trust in Him for salvation. Why do you ask such silly questions? I am unaware of anyone who has placed their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation to turn around and hate Him. What would they be hating Him for anyway?

Because you say such silly things.
A person is saved when they hear the words, "Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." (Mat 25:34-36 RSV) and not a moment before.

Where did I tell anyone "not to bother"?? Please STOP lying about what I tell people. What's the matter with you anyway?

You said that water baptism was not necessary for salvation. If it's not necessary then why bother?

And why did you totally ignore the verses I gave that support my view?

Because you totally ignore the verses which refute your view. ALL of scripture is true; not just your "proof texts."

The word was used in connection with dipping cloth in a dye.

The word "baptize" is from the Greek word "βαπτίζω". ( baptizō )
Strongs ( g907) defines it thusly: "to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe"

It came to mean to be identified with. Which is exactly how Paul used the word in 1 Cor 10:1-3.

Passing through the sea was a type or shadow of Christian baptism.

Your comments here just illustrate how much you do not understand the difference between John's kind of baptism, which included water, and the baptism of Jesus by the Holy Spirit, which does NOT include water.

Jesus is indeed the baptizer in the Holy Spirit.
He is also the one who told you that you must be born again of water AND of the Spirit.

I'm not even sure you'd want to understand the difference, given what you've posted here. iow, your mind is made up that every mention of "baptizo" means to dunk in water.

Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded that we be baptized in water and that is what the church has always done beginning at acts 2 until today. But you deny fact and history to give the appearance of having support for your silly notion that Christians need not be baptized in water.
Suit yourself. Proclaim your personal gospel of ignoring Jesus command to baptize.

Everyone who was immersed in water DIED as a result.

So you ignored what Paul; told you.
Rom 6:3-7 Or do you not know (and your refuse to know) that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

 

[smaller]

BUT:
Rom 2:6-10 (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Romans 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

You really should stick with a better rendering, like maybe the KJV and then upgrade understandings of the principles of Grace, Mercy and the Love of God in Christ for those who believe.

Mat 25:31-46 (RSV)
When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It's the fulfillment of what Jesus said at Jhn 5:28-29; "... the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."

And THAT, my "faith and nothing else" brothers and sisters, is a clear description of salvation based on your WORKS. :shock :yes

Uh, not even close my friend.

LOOK at Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Your sight is completely VOID of the obvious in these scriptural equations.

If any "works for salvation" adherent thinks that the evil present with Paul or the sin indwelling his flesh or the messenger of Satan in his flesh benefited from baptism OR WORKS or any other good and gracious and merciful matters from God in Christ y'all are quite sadly mistaken.

 

[Seabass]

T

Actually, not. The phrase "by water" means "by the means OF water". But "through water" means just the opposite; We are saved, not BY water, but THROUGH water.

If they mean the same thing, then we are saved BY water. But that is not what Peter was saying.

In fact, just consider the previous verse, which proves that he was teaching that they were saved by being OUT of the water, in the ark.

The Greek word dia can be translated "by" or "through"

Saved by water or saved through water means the water is the means by/through which they were saved. By changing hydor (water) to ark you are totally changing what Peter said and meant.

Peter said "...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...."

The Greek word for "like figure" is antitypos and means antitype. An antitype is a mirror reflection of the type. In the context Pter gives the OT type and the NT antitype:

OT type:-----------saved by water (flood)
NT antitype:-------saved by water (baptism)

Therefore Peter meant water and not ark:

OT type------saved by an ark
NT antitype---saved by water

This is obviously NOT an OT type to NT antitype connection.

v.20 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

This is clear. They were brought SAFELY THROUGH the water. They stayed dry. If water saves, it would have been all the humans who drowned that would have been saved. Because they were the ones who were immersed IN the water.

But, in fact, they died BY water. They were not saved, in any sense.
But 1 Pet 3:20 tells us that Noah plus 7 were saved by staying OUT of the water. They were actually physically saved by the ark, which kept them OUT of the water.

They were in an ark but that is not what Peter said saved them. He said the word hydor>water. You cannot change what Peter said for then you no longer have the OT type to NT antitype Peter is making.

It was the water that separated Noah from the wicked. It is water baptism that separates the saved from the lost.
It was water that cleansed the earth of the evil filth of the flesh. It water baptism where the filth of sins are washed away b the blood of Christ.

His point in v.21 is that it ISN'T physical water that saves. The water that "puts away the filth of the flesh" doesn't save at all. That's exactly what Peter said in v.21. "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but anappeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection ofJesus Christ,"

The bolded phrase shows that he wasn't talking about water, which does remove dirt from the flesh. He was talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which John the Baptist made note of about Jesus.

Peter point IS the fact water baptism saves.

Peter said:

Acts 2:38--------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
1Pet 3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>now saves us

In Acts 2:38 and 1 Pet 3:21, Peter is speaking of the "one baptism" (Eph 4:4,5) that is in effect today, that being the human(disciple) administered water baptism of Christ's great commission. Peter is NOT talking about baptism with the Holy Spirit for that does not fit the type to antitype connection;

v20---------saved by water (flood)
v21---------saved by water (baptism)

Peter did NOT say:

v20-------saved by spirit baptism
v21-------saved by spirit baptism

The earth was not flooded with "Spirit" but with literal water. Therefore the antitype, being a mirror reflection of the type, means we are now saved by literal water baptism.

“I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8

See also Mt 3:11 where this is fulfilled in Acts 1:1-5 and refers to the Apostles being baptized with the Holy Spirit not anyone today.

Earlier you were wanting the OT type in v21 to ark, now you want it to be spirit.

Again,

v20 OT type-----------saved by water
V21 NT antitype-----saved by water

Anything other than this then you no longer have an OT type to NT type

V20----saved by an ark or spirit
v21 ---saved by water (baptism)

This is NOT an OT type to NT antitype connection.

His point is very clear. We are NOT saved by water baptism - "not the removal of dirt from the flesh".


Exactly! And that kind of immersion does not save. That's Peter's message.

Peter's OT type to T antitype proves he is speaking about literal water, literal water of the flood and literal water of baptism.

The water of baptism is not for taking a bath to cleanse dirt form the flesh but is an "answer of a good conscience toward God "

In Actd 2 Peter convicted his hearers of crucifying the Messiah. They heard and understood peter's message and were "pricked in their hearts" so much so they asked Peter "what must we do". They had a bad conscience du to the sin Peter convicted them of.
What was Peter's answer to them for a good conscience towards God? Repent and BE BAPTIZED..for the remission of sins. Water baptism therefore was their "answer of a good conscience towards God" for sins are remitted in water baptism where then one can then have a good conscience towards God. They were not told being in an ark or spirit baptism was the answer of a good conscience toward God. Again, neither "ark" or "spirit" fit the OT type to NT antitype.

 

[Jim Parker]

Romans 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

You really should stick with a better rendering, like maybe the KJV and then upgrade understandings of the principles of Grace, Mercy and the Love of God in Christ for those who believe.

The KJV??? Why would I use a Bible written in Late Middle English when there are better translations in Modern English?
You don't speak Jacobean English. Why don't you read a translation written in the language you speak?
And JTLYK; God loves ALL of mankind, not just those who believe. Jesus died for ALL of mankind.

John 3:16-17 (NKJV) For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the WORLD through Him might be saved.

LOOK at Paul:
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Your sight is completely VOID of the obvious in these scriptural equations.

Says the guy who tries to read a language he doesn't even speak.
And those are not "equations." Get a dictionary; look up "equation."
Paul said the "thorn" was to keep him humble. ("lest I should be exalted above measure")

If any "works for salvation" adherent thinks that the evil present with Paul or the sin indwelling his flesh or the messenger of Satan in his flesh benefited from baptism OR WORKS or any other good and gracious and merciful matters from God in Christ y'all are quite sadly mistaken.

Who would think that evil or sin or Satan's messenger would benefit from baptism? That doesn't even make sense.
Your faith without works is dead and a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Jesus said he is going to judge you according to what you did and did not do. He was talking about "works." (Mat 25:31-46 any version)
Jesus also said: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29 NKJV)

Paul said the same thing. (God) will render to each one according to his deeds;eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Ro 6:2-10 NKJV)

That's what the sola scriptura says and that's what I believe.
If you believe Jesus then you will believe you should do as He says.
If you don't think you need to do what He says then you don't believe He is who He said He is.

Luke 6:46 (NKJV) But why do you call Me "Lord, Lord," and not do the things which I say?
The obvious answer to that question is that the "you" didn't really think He was who He said He was.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ah so! You have to place your trust in Jesus. That would be salvation by what you do (place your trust) or by works.

Ah so…NOT!! Believing in Christ is not a work for which one earns salvation, or deserves salvation. Paul was quite clear about distinguishing between works and grace by faith. Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

I said this:
"A person IS SAVED when they place their trust in Him for salvation. Why do you ask such silly questions? I am unaware of anyone who has placed their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation to turn around and hate Him. What would they be hating Him for anyway?"

Because you say such silly things.

Nothing I said was silly. (but I'll get to what you said that is) And I noticed that you dodged my question. Why? Because you know that you have no answer for it. Which made your question probably worse than silly.

A person is saved when they hear the words, "Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." (Mat 25:34-36 RSV) and not a moment before.

Right here. A very silly statement. A person is saved WHEN they believe. Do you really believe a person can receive eternal life and not be considered saved?? That would be silly as well.

You said that water baptism was not necessary for salvation. If it's not necessary then why bother?

It's an outward expression of being identified with Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus Himself was water baptized as an outward expression of being identified with His Father's plan.

Why do you take communion? As an outward expression of gratitude for what Christ did for you.

Because you totally ignore the verses which refute your view. ALL of scripture is true; not just your "proof texts."

None of the verses you provided refute my view. Don't be silly.

The word "baptize" is from the Greek word "βαπτίζω". ( baptizō )
Strongs ( g907) defines it thusly: "to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe"

Well, I have already explained how the word came to mean. Whether you accept that or not is up to you.

Passing through the sea was a type or shadow of Christian baptism.

You're free to think so. But it was an identification with Moses.

Jesus is indeed the baptizer in the Holy Spirit.
He is also the one who told you that you must be born again of water AND of the Spirit.

The "water" is a reference to physical birth, and the Spirit is a reference to spiritual birth.

Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded that we be baptized in water and that is what the church has always done beginning at acts 2 until today.

But NEVER for salvation.

But you deny fact and history to give the appearance of having support for your silly notion that Christians need not be baptized in water.

Please show me where I ever said Christians need not be baptised in water. Stop the lies.

Suit yourself. Proclaim your personal gospel of ignoring Jesus command to baptize.

I've never ignored it. The difference between us is that I understand what water baptism is for.

I said this:
"Everyone who was immersed in water DIED as a result."

So you ignored what Paul; told you.

Apparently you're just not following much of what I say. I pointed out that in the Noahic flood, everyone who got water dunked DIED, while the 8 in the ark were saved THROUGH WATER. They stayed DRY.

Also, the Exodus generation, baptised "in the sea" STAYED DRY, while the Egyptian army got water dunked and DIED.

Why do you ignore these plain facts?

Rom 6:3-7 Or do you not know (and your refuse to know) that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

This is speaking of the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit, NOT water.

 

[FreeGrace]

T

The Greek word dia can be translated "by" or "through"

I'll just ask one question. Did the 8 get wet or not?

Saved by water or saved through water means the water is the means by/through which they were saved.

This is incorrect. They were saved by the ark, a type of Christ. If they were NOT in the boat, they would have DIED from the water, or IN the water, like all the rest of mankind.

By changing hydor (water) to ark you are totally changing what Peter said and meant.

No I haven't. I reject your opinion. Any one is free to deny that the ark kept the 8 from drowning, but they are only denying fact.

The water did not save anyone. In fact, the water killed not only the rest of humanity, but all the animals. Which is why God directed Noah to put animals in the ark.

Peter said "...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…."

They weren't saved BY water. They were actually saved FROM the water. If not for the ark, they all would have drowned, like the rest of humanity. This is undeniable.

The Greek word for "like figure" is antitypos and means antitype. An antitype is a mirror reflection of the type. In the context Pter gives the OT type and the NT antitype:

OT type:-----------saved by water (flood)
NT antitype:-------saved by water (baptism)

They weren't saved by water. They were saved FROM water. Obviously.

Therefore Peter meant water and not ark:

OT type------saved by an ark
NT antitype---saved by water

Nope. The NT antitype is Christ Himself. We are saved by Christ. Not water. It is, imho, blasphemous to give credit to water as the means of our saving. Christ gets all the credit. He alone is the antitype.

They were in an ark but that is not what Peter said saved them.

It is exactly what he was referring to. The 8 were saved through water. FROM water. If not for the ark, they all would have drowned. You want to argue against that? Be my guest.

He said the word hydor>water. You cannot change what Peter said for then you no longer have the OT type to NT antitype Peter is making.

I've not changed anything. It's your view that is trying to change things by trying to force "through" to mean "by", as if the water itself saved the 8 while killing ALL THE REST OF HUMANITY. That is nonsensical.

It was the water that separated Noah from the wicked. It is water baptism that separates the saved from the lost.

Nope. Not even close. It was the ark (antitype of Christ) that separated Noah from wicked. And Christ is what separates the saved from the unsaved. That is why Jesus Christ is properly called Savior.

Consider what the Bible says:
Gen 7:20-23
20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.
21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

It is very clear that only those in the ARK were saved FROM the water that killed everything else.

It was water that cleansed the earth of the evil filth of the flesh. It water baptism where the filth of sins are washed away b the blood of Christ.

What cleanses us is the work of Christ, referred to as "blood of Christ". Heb 9:22

In fact, Peter makes very clear that he WASN'T speaking of water baptism by this phrase:


Peter point IS the fact water baptism saves.

Peter said: Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience 1 Pet 3:21

He first says "baptism now saves you". Then he clarifies with "NOT the removal of dirt from the flesh". iow, NOT WATER. It is water that removes dirt from the flesh, right? And he clarified that he wasn't referring to water baptism, but rather Holy Spirit baptism.

Acts 2:38--------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
1Pet 3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>now saves us

Both of these are about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water.

In Acts 2:38 and 1 Pet 3:21, Peter is speaking of the "one baptism" (Eph 4:4,5) that is in effect today, that being the human(disciple) administered water baptism of Christ's great commission. Peter is NOT talking about baptism with the Holy Spirit for that does not fit the type to antitype connection;

The ONLY baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

v20---------saved by water (flood)

No, saved FROM water, or THROUGH water.

v21---------saved by water (baptism)

Actually, he specifically ruled out water by the phrase "NOT the removal of dirt from the flesh".

Peter did NOT say:

v20-------saved by spirit baptism
v21-------saved by spirit baptism

He sure did say that.

The earth was not flooded with "Spirit" but with literal water. Therefore the antitype, being a mirror reflection of the type, means we are now saved by literal water baptism.

The literal water KILLS. Didn't you read Gen 7??

No one is saved by water that covers over your head. It's called drowning. Both the flood and the Exodus Red Sea prove this. ONLY those who were immersed IN water were killed. Not saved. ONLY those who stayed dry FROM the water were SAVED. This is undeniable. But go ahead and try to deconstruct any of this.

Peter's OT type to T antitype proves he is speaking about literal water, literal water of the flood and literal water of baptism.

This totally misunderstands 1 Pet 3:21 where Peter specifically eliminates literal water as what saves us: "NOT the removal of dirt from the flesh". That is a reference to literal water.

The water of baptism is not for taking a bath to cleanse dirt form the flesh but is an "answer of a good conscience toward God "

Good grief!! He clearly said "baptism saves us, but NOT the removal of dirt". He was saying we are saved by Holy Spirit baptism, NOT by water baptism.

 

[smaller]

The KJV??? Why would I use a Bible written in Late Middle English when there are better translations in Modern English?

"Because" the translation you employ is spiritually blind to Paul's reality, prior noted.

Paul said the "thorn" was to keep him humble. ("lest I should be exalted above measure") Who would think that evil or sin or Satan's messenger would benefit from baptism? That doesn't even make sense.

What doesn't make sense is seeing only "humans" when the scriptural account of "humans" contains more than "just humans." But that's what we wind up with when translators can't make sense of it or get the picture.

Your faith without works is dead and a man is justified by works,

With "works" equations there are 3 parties "working" in every scriptural scenario.

God
Man
Satan

Where would you like to start the discussion? These subjects are 3 dimensional, not one dimensional-> lacking depth using superficial sights.

Will God Have His Perfect Work?
Can man conjure up satisfactory performances of his own?
Will any work apply to the tempter?

Freewillers in general seem to be in disregard to the fact that upon belief, technically speaking, they died and the Spirit of Christ abides in their heart. So who are they trying to potentially damn? The Spirit of Christ or dead people? Makes no sense.

There is no "free" will of any believer. There is Gods Will, there is the good/evil conscience of the man, and there is the working of the tempter in the flesh, ALL of which transpire in believing HUMANS.

The real scriptural picture of "humans" needs an upgrade in many forms of theology.

IF there is only ONE baptism, there is, then why are there thousands of different baptisms postured by christian sectarianism? Which brand of these myriad forms of baptism might we say is "thee only one?" When we speak of baptism's today, we speak of them in terms of various forms of sectarian "branding."

It's more of a marketing gimmick at this point in history. And in most cases, to take the "sect brand" means also to potentially condemn others not of the same brand. It's anti-Christian imho. And we have these various "hero's" right here, plying their potential condemnation wares for insufficient branding.

And it get's even worse when believers point out the obvious of what these various potential condemnation peddlers are doing.

I'd have rather not branded and loved the brethren regardless of their brand.

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

IF the Spiritual dictate to NOT engage in this was put at the TOP of every christian sects doctrinal priority list, we probably wouldn't have nearly as many "unity" issues would we?

 

[JLB]

The "baptism that saves us" is NOT the water that we may be dunked in. The "baptism that now saves us" (1 Pet 3:21) refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does NOT involve water.

It would be grossly presumptuous to claim that this Baptism saves us, and therefore there is no need to be Baptized in water, since the days of Noah is a reference to the water that flooded the whole earth.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

Baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit at the new birth. [Into Moses] The Son

Baptism in water. [The Sea] The Father

Baptism with the Holy Spirit. [The Cloud] The Holy Spirit


JLB

 

[JLB]

With "works" equations there are 3 parties "working" in every scriptural scenario.

God
Man
Satan

Your perspective does not include angels who work on behalf of the saints.

JLB