Shilohsfoal
Member
As i said.You gain knowledge by comparing scripture to scripture which you do not.
I read about them in the book of Daniel first.But ive read about them in the gospels as well.
You should study more than just revelation 11.
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2 witness
- Thread starter Corn Pop
- Start date
I read about them in the book of Daniel first.But ive read about them in the gospels as well.
You should study more than just revelation 11.
Shilohsfoal
Member
So you can not provide any scripture to back up your claims.
How do you know what I do and don't read? I have been a believer in Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I understand the gospel message and am far alone from in seeing two people in Rev 11. I don't need to justify Rev 11 by looking elsewhere. That doesn't mean I am not aware of other scriptures.
What claims do you speak of?
Shilohsfoal
Member
You claimed the two witnesses are serving Jesus while they kill and torment other humans.
I asked you to please provide scriture showing Jesus preaching that his witnesses are to kill and torment other humans.
You have provided none.
I stated the scripture NOT YOUR WORDS.
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
As for the allegiance that's also clear from the text they serve Jesus.
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
Shilohsfoal
Member
Thats what we call christians.
Just because they call Jesus Lord does not mean they are serving him.
Matthew 7:21 - A Tree and its Fruit
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
biblehub.com
Can you provide any scripture of Jesus telling any christians such as these to kill and torment other humans?
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They didn't call themselves christians the scripture stated their in the city where their "Lord" was crucified. And that God appointed them.Thats what we call christians.
Just because they call Jesus Lord does not mean they are serving him.
Matthew 7:21 - A Tree and its Fruit
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.biblehub.com
Can you provide any scripture of Jesus telling any christians such as these to kill and torment other humans?
This is from God
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
I have given you what is written in Rev 11. You can't seem to accept it. Again I don't need to justify the scripture as its from God.
I guess will have to agree to disagree.
The two witnesses are Elijah & John the revelator. Those who view the 2 witnesses as people are in considerable agreement that one of them is Elijah because Malachi says so.
*[[Mal 4:5]] KJV* Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
There are 2 principal reasons why John is the other prophet.
1. Scripture says so:
*[[Rev 10:11]] KJV* And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
2.The context of the account of the 2 witnesses is within the scope of the 7 trumpets. Why is that important? Because the trumpets are the judgments of God that must take place before the Day of the Lord comes. Those events that precedes the DOTL are clearly illustrated in the book of Joel. They are:
1.Fire from heaven.
2.Blood from heaven.
3.Stars from heaven.
4a. Sun turned into darkness,
4b.Moon turns blood red.
5a.Pillars of smoke,
5b.Men desiring to die, but cannot.
6.An army of horses and horsemen.
7.An earthquake.
I listed these 7 in accordance with the seven trumpets. The important thing to take note of is all the times that Joel says
1. BEFORE that day comes,
2.THAT DAY is,
A. near, or
B. nigh at hand.
Here it is:
Verse list:
Joe 1:15-20 KJVLite Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God? The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered. How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate. O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.
Joe 2 KJVLite Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is NIGH AT HAND; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and WHO CAN ABIDE IT? Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and THE terrible DAY of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joe 3:1-2 KJVLite For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
The reason we find the account of the 2 witnesses within the context of the 7 trumpets is because they are part of the things to be prophetically fulfilled BEFORE the DOTL comes. Look at John's account of himself in Rev 10 & 11 with the removal of the headers.
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Be Blessed,
EP
*[[Mal 4:5]] KJV* Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
There are 2 principal reasons why John is the other prophet.
1. Scripture says so:
*[[Rev 10:11]] KJV* And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
2.The context of the account of the 2 witnesses is within the scope of the 7 trumpets. Why is that important? Because the trumpets are the judgments of God that must take place before the Day of the Lord comes. Those events that precedes the DOTL are clearly illustrated in the book of Joel. They are:
1.Fire from heaven.
2.Blood from heaven.
3.Stars from heaven.
4a. Sun turned into darkness,
4b.Moon turns blood red.
5a.Pillars of smoke,
5b.Men desiring to die, but cannot.
6.An army of horses and horsemen.
7.An earthquake.
I listed these 7 in accordance with the seven trumpets. The important thing to take note of is all the times that Joel says
1. BEFORE that day comes,
2.THAT DAY is,
A. near, or
B. nigh at hand.
Here it is:
Verse list:
Joe 1:15-20 KJVLite Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God? The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered. How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate. O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.
Joe 2 KJVLite Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is NIGH AT HAND; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and WHO CAN ABIDE IT? Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and THE terrible DAY of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joe 3:1-2 KJVLite For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
The reason we find the account of the 2 witnesses within the context of the 7 trumpets is because they are part of the things to be prophetically fulfilled BEFORE the DOTL comes. Look at John's account of himself in Rev 10 & 11 with the removal of the headers.
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Be Blessed,
EP
Shilohsfoal
Member
There are many who call Jesus lord and kill and torment people .
The United States military can seal up the heavens so it doesnt rain.
Its considerd economical warfare and has been banned by ENMOD.
The reason you can,not provide scripture showing Jesus instructing his witnesses to kill and torture other humans is because Jesus never did.There isnt any.
The fact that these two witnesses are doing the exact opposite as Jesus instructs his disciples has escaped you.
Luke 6:27 - Love Your Enemies
But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
biblehub.com
Luke 6:28 - Love Your Enemies
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
biblehub.com
Luke 6:29 - Love Your Enemies
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well.
biblehub.com
Luke 6:30 - Love Your Enemies
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.
biblehub.com
These two witnesses are definitely not doing as Christ taught and obviously have not listened to what thier Lord taught.Thier works appear the same as the beast who kills them.
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You are mistakenThere are many who call Jesus lord and kill and torment people .
The United States military can seal up the heavens so it doesnt rain.
Its considerd economical warfare and has been banned by ENMOD.
The reason you can,not provide scripture showing Jesus instructing his witnesses to kill and torture other humans is because Jesus never did.There isnt any.
The fact that these two witnesses are doing the exact opposite as Jesus instructs his disciples has escaped you.
Luke 6:27 - Love Your Enemies
But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,biblehub.comLuke 6:28 - Love Your Enemies
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.biblehub.comLuke 6:29 - Love Your Enemies
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well.biblehub.comLuke 6:30 - Love Your Enemies
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.biblehub.com
These two witnesses are definitely not doing as Christ taught and obviously have not listened to what thier Lord taught.Thier works appear the same as the beast who kills them.
GOD appoints them and they are called HIS witnesses and Jesus is referred by scripture as their Lord. And God states "come up here" to them and they are taken up to heaven.
This is in your favor, you believe they are from God. However they weren't named. I don't know who they are but I don't think two people from the distance past will suddenly appear alive again on earth to fill those roles. Therefore to me they will be two individuals who are born and raised and walking this earth when God appoints them as His two witnesses.
Shilohsfoal
Member
Im not mistaken.
They call Jesus thier Lord but they are not doing what he said to do.
I have proven by the very words of Christ that they are not doing as thier Lord has commanded them.
As for them ascending to the heavens in a cloud.
I wouldnt want to be in that cloud.Ive seen what it looks like.Its not a pleasant sight to see.
Shilohsfoal
Member
Now how many of you have compared this time frame to the same time frame in daniel 11?
In Daniel 11 you have the king of the norths military occupying Jerusalem those same 42 months.And as you should know (fire)procedes from military comanders mouths to destroy thier enemies.
After occupying Jerusalem 42 months, the king of the south attacks the forces of the king of the north.This coresponds to the beast attacking the two witnesses.
Afterwhich the resurrection takes place in daniel 12 corresponding to the ressurection of the two witnesses.
Now we find that at the time the two witnesses ascend to heaven in a cloud is at the same time the armed forces of the king of the north place the abomination that causes desolation.
That is going to be one supper hot nasty cloud they are going to be in.
Pure hell fire.
How many of you know what kind of cloud ascends into the heavens from the earth and is caused by the armed forces?
In Daniel 11 you have the king of the norths military occupying Jerusalem those same 42 months.And as you should know (fire)procedes from military comanders mouths to destroy thier enemies.
After occupying Jerusalem 42 months, the king of the south attacks the forces of the king of the north.This coresponds to the beast attacking the two witnesses.
Afterwhich the resurrection takes place in daniel 12 corresponding to the ressurection of the two witnesses.
Now we find that at the time the two witnesses ascend to heaven in a cloud is at the same time the armed forces of the king of the north place the abomination that causes desolation.
That is going to be one supper hot nasty cloud they are going to be in.
Pure hell fire.
How many of you know what kind of cloud ascends into the heavens from the earth and is caused by the armed forces?
Shilohsfoal
Member
Ok,no reply.
How about this.
How many people on this board have read about the witnesses in the gospel?Iknow someone has read about the signs of Christs coming.
How about this.
How many people on this board have read about the witnesses in the gospel?Iknow someone has read about the signs of Christs coming.
Close.
The two who witnessed His resurrection.
Who are the two who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
JLB
Nathan12
Member
It is more likely that they are Moses and Elijah. Both these prophets had the privilege of meeting Christ at His transfiguration, and the miracles they perform correspond to the miracles they performed while they were on earth.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:... [Elijah shut the heavens for 3 1/2 years and it did not rain]
...and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, [Moses caused the river Nile of Egypt to be turned to blood]
as often as they will. [there may be repetitions of these judgments]
dianegcook
Member
Torment can mean different things.There are many who call Jesus lord and kill and torment people .
The United States military can seal up the heavens so it doesnt rain.
Its considerd economical warfare and has been banned by ENMOD.
The reason you can,not provide scripture showing Jesus instructing his witnesses to kill and torture other humans is because Jesus never did.There isnt any.
The fact that these two witnesses are doing the exact opposite as Jesus instructs his disciples has escaped you.
Luke 6:27 - Love Your Enemies
But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,biblehub.comLuke 6:28 - Love Your Enemies
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.biblehub.comLuke 6:29 - Love Your Enemies
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well.biblehub.comLuke 6:30 - Love Your Enemies
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.biblehub.com
These two witnesses are definitely not doing as Christ taught and obviously have not listened to what thier Lord taught.Thier works appear the same as the beast who kills them.
They prophesy.
It is like the two edge sword that cuts both ways, the truth.
Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
As also in Rev.1:16
You also have to consider that we are speaking of fallen angels that have set up this One World Order, which these 2 witnesses prophesy against and those whom received the mark of the beast.
The truth torments them.
Shilohsfoal
Member
There is no one world order in the bible.If there were then there would be no war between kingdoms.But as Jesus said,there will be wars and rumors of wars even up untill the war of Armegedon which involves Israel and these two witnesses who are killed during that war.
Theres good reason to believe if these two witnesses had not been killing men women and children then they would not have been killed.Looks like thier works have been recompensed.They killed with the sword and were killed with the sword so to speak.
dianegcook
Member
One World Order
Rev.13:17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
And as I believe, one witness is Elijah.
2Kings 1:12
Elijah answered, If I be a man of God, let fire come down FROM HEAVEN, and consume thee and thy 50. And the FIRE OF GOD came down FROM HEAVEN, and consumed him and his 50.
In Rev.9:4
It was commanded by God, that they ( fallen angels) should not hurt those men which have the seal of God.
They broke this command when they killed the 2 witnesses.
God consumes His enemies, which they were, whom receive the mark from these fallen angels.
If the 2 witnesses were threatened with their lives, which, I'm sure they will be,( Rev.11:5, and if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouths), then they(enemies) were in this manner killed.
God allows the 2 witnesses to finish their testimonies, before the beast from the bottomless pit kills them. Rev.11:7
After 3 days and a half, God entered into them, and stood on their feet, and they ascended to heaven.
Then we see at the 7th trump, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ.