2nd Coming has already happened??

[BobRyan]

One of the advertisers of this board presented this link arguing that the 2nd coming has already happened many many times - as a personnal 2nd coming

http://www.hallvworthington.com/endworld.html


Is this teaching common where you live? I almost never hear of it -- and it seems to be careful to avoid the 2thess 2:1-3 argument against what it is claiming.

Your thoughts?

Bob

 

[AVBunyan]

One of the advertisers of this board presented this link arguing that the 2nd coming has already happened many many times - as a personnal 2nd coming.

Is this teaching common where you live? Your thoughts? Bob

Hi Bob- basically what this person has done has spiritualized 3/4 of the OT/NT - and yes...this is a common teaching going around - been around for a while.

Once one begins to spiritualize and allegorize then the scriptures become a closed book.

God bless

 

[one_lost_coin]

Wow, To think it is now being taught that Jesus isn't coming again as has been passed on for 2000 years a belief preserved in the Apostles creed no less. What next?

I haven't heard this one before but it is sad. There was some truth being presented but even it seems to be presented as if Christianity had never known of such things till George Fox came along.

 

[guibox]

The notion that the second coming is spiritual is so absurd I'm amazed that so many believe it.

The entire NT message of salvation is that eternal life is only granted and realized at a physical, bodily resurrection of the just. Paul's entire message focuses on the correlation of Christ's death and resurrection to eternal life, to that of the righteous. Without one, the other is not possible (1 Corinthians 15:13-20). Those that are 'asleep' are in their graves and it is there that they will 'perish' if the 'dead be not raised'. The idea of a spiritual resurrection completely negates Paul's linkage with physical dead, a physical grave and physical resurrection. He also links the methodology of Christ's resurrection to the righteous.

"

First off, you must not carry on over them like people who have nothing to look forward to, as if the grave were the last word. Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus. - 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - The Message

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. - 1 Corinthians 15:21-23 KJV

The hope of salvation is found in resurrection at the literal coming of Christ.

The language of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 and the entirety of 1 Corinthians 15 is impossible to get around without making a mockery of the language and context.

Couple that with John 5:28-29 which reiterates the importance of an end time resurrection as spoken of by Daniel (Daniel 12:1-2) and there is no way that one can get around this fact.

The resurrection of Lazarus was a taste of what was to come for those who believe in Christ. Christ also went against the Sadducees who believed that there was no resurrection of the dead. Christ made it clear that God would be a God of the dead if the dead did not physically raise (Matthew 22:21-22)

 

[John]

One of the advertisers of this board presented this link arguing that the 2nd coming has already happened many many times - as a personnal 2nd coming

http://www.hallvworthington.com/endworld.html


Is this teaching common where you live? I almost never hear of it -- and it seems to be careful to avoid the 2thess 2:1-3 argument against what it is claiming.

Your thoughts?

Bob

I have also never heard of this. Its weirding me out. Its not even in line with the Bible as far as i know.

 

[Vic C.]

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This passage suggests He was physically taken up and will physically return. 8-)

 

[Paidion]

There is another forum which is discussing this topic in several threads. I have been on that forum for a long time. Several full preterists have recently joined forces in trying to persuade us that the second coming of Christ occurred in 70 A.D.

I invite you to study the reasoning, join the forum, and respond with your thoughts and scriptural evidence that the second coming is yet to happen. Be careful, though. Some of those guys are pretty sharp.

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=75

 

[Free]

That is some crazy stuff those people believe. I really don't know how one can come to that conclusion from reading Scripture. It might be worth some study.

"We live in the never ending age of the new covenant, the new Jerusalem, the new heavens and earth of Revelation 21 and 22."

Are you kidding me? Apparently they don't read what the Bible says about the new Jerusalem and the new heavens and earth. I thought death and crying were to be no more? :crazyeyes:


Vic,

That is the exact passage that first came to my mind as well. And really, that passage alone should end the discussion. :-?

 

[Drew]

First of all: Paidion, you really have me (and probably others) guessing. Over the course of your posts, you have evolved from a young stripling lad into a young adult, and then into a middle aged adult. And now you're 64. When will it end? Are you a 98 year old? These evolving avatar images cannot go on forever. :D

I sense we are all of one mind: The 2nd coming has not yet occurred. And, of course, I entirely agree.

However, I think it is true that there is a sense in which "bits" of that future world - the world the way that it will be when Jesus comes again to set the world right - are actually present with us right now. Any of you (Free?) who have read NT Wright will probably know what I am talking about.

I think that Wright makes a strong case that the "post 2nd coming" world actually manifests itself in the present word:

- in the presence of the Holy Spirit in believers (described as a "down payment", I believe);
- in acts of charity to the poor, etc;
- in the sacrament of communion.

Now I want to be clear here. Wright is not speaking "symbolically". He is asserting that little "parts" of that promised bright future are actually occurring right now.

I think he is right (no pun intended), but this doesn't mean that I do not join the rest of you in standing against the idea the the 2nd coming has already happened. Little bits of that future make their appearance, but the great climactic event - with the general resurrection and the remaking of the cosmos - lies in the future, of course.

 

[BobRyan]

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Bob

 

[francisdesales]

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Agree.

Neither has happened yet.

Regards

 

[Free]

Drew,

It seems like you have read Simply Christian. And, yes, I agree with what you are saying. I tend to agree with most of what Wright writes. He has a way way of mellowing out some of the more extreme doctrines while adding life to others that are lacking; he provides a very nice balance that really does bring out the deep simplicity of Christianity.

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

See, what those people don't understand is this.

There are two words used when it speaks of jesus "coming".
One is epiphanea and the other is parousia.

They mean different things.
The epiphanea is Christ coming in the believer, in his people.
The parousia is him actually coming back in his own body, not just his new body, the body of Christ.
If you look at the places where each is used, and keep that reference in mind, it'll make a lot more sense.

Hope that helps to clear it up.
Look into it for yourselves of course, it's probably something you've never noticed or been told about.
I had no clue until about, oh, probably about a year and a half ago.
Not many places I've gone have people even known there were two different words used.

Here is a good site to learn more about that and of course many other things you've probably never known about, you can just use the google search on the page to find whatever it is you're looking for.

http://www.UnleavenedBreadMinistries.org

- Marc Stinebaugh

 

[Paidion]

First of all: Paidion, you really have me (and probably others) guessing. Over the course of your posts, you have evolved from a young stripling lad into a young adult, and then into a middle aged adult. And now you're 64. When will it end? Are you a 98 year old? These evolving avatar images cannot go on forever.

You're forcing me to admit it; my true name is "Methuselah" and I am now 969. I have this feeling that the end is getting close.

You have probably noticed that in my most recent avatar, I am 70 years of age. That is actually my present age.

Marc, I don't think the distinction between "epiphaneia" (appearance) and "parousia" (presence) is as significant as you seem to think. Both refer to the coming of Christ. He will return in His resurrected body, just as the disciples had seen Him ascend in His resurrected body.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lighting [not "lightning"] comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the parousia(presence) of the Son of man.

When the lighting of the sun comes from the east in the morning, shines all day, and disappears gradually as the sun sets in the west, everyone is aware of it's presence!

If Christ's presence is restricted to a presence within the people of His Body, will everyone know that He is present as certainly as they know the sun is present? He warned against claims of a"secret" presence of Christ. If people say He is hidden in the desert of in secret rooms, don't believe it!

Matthew 24 speaks not only of His presence of of Him coming (erchomai).

Verse 30
... then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming(erchomai) on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;

Verse 42
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

Maybe you should look into what I said, and then comment. I didn't make it up, it's there in the Bible. You'll see what I mean if you take the time to study it. Just as people didn't know Christ in his old body because of the letter of the scriptures, again, they won't recognize him coming in his new body in the tribulation because the word is spiritually discerned and the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit of the word of god.
Really, go look into it. Or, I could start a thread on that.

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=hmpc2

This link has a video you can watch that goes into great detail what I'm telling you.
It also makes it very easy to understand.
It's under the "Hidden Prophecies of the End Times" section on that page.

 

[Vic C.]

... Here is a good site to learn more about that and of course many other things you've probably never known about, you can just use the google search on the page to find whatever it is you're looking for.

http://www.UnleavenedBreadMinistries.org

- Marc Stinebaugh

Hi and welcome to the site.

Could and would you post a link within the site you posted that is more relevant to the context of your post? Your link only brings us to the main page.

Thanks. 8-)

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

Sorry, top of this page. I got to it late :D

 

[Vic C.]

LOL, we were posting at almost the same time. :D

Thanks for the link.

 

[Cornelius]

http://www.UnleavenedBreadMinistries.org[/url]

- Marc Stinebaugh

Hi and welcome to the site.

Could and would you post a link within the site you posted that is more relevant to the context of your post? Your link only brings us to the main page.

Thanks. 8-)[/quote:1bk86g9m]

Good stuff at that link !
C