The 2nd Coming

[Hopeful 2]

That's rather silly.
It was a method of speaking.
Do we HANG CLOTHES for misbehaving?

Are you sure you have the right poster ?

Jesus will return the same way He left.
That's what we can know.

It is written..." And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11)

 

[Ezekiel]

In the return of Christ. He will return with the clouds of heaven. Interpretation of clouds, would be the saints that have meet Christ in the sky before those that are alive leave earth as the final harvest. Them alive in no means are first but them that are asleep will be first as revelation says. This happens around the fourth trumpet and or will Babylon has fallen as for them asleep.

 

[LovethroughDove]

bc you are of help in my researches.

Here - I'll give some more information to your research.

Revelation 1:14-15 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

 

[YeshuaGlory]

Here - I'll give some more information to your research.

Revelation 1:14-15 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

Yes I can add 9 more verses that state Yeshua will return in other imagery than the Fundamentalists/Darbists
**yEshua's 2nd Comming is ONLY when He appears ona Cloud of Glory and in no other manner** Doctrine
To believe otherwise = damnable heresy.

 

[Anaphora]

Acts chapter 1
Only God knows when the 6th trump and 7th trump will take place.

As watchman, we look at bible prophecy and signs.

Jesus gave us the signs in Matthew chapter 24. Revelation chapter 6 gives us the seven seals. Chapter 8 gives us the trumps.

We are close to the 6th trump.

 

[Barney Bright]

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11



“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

I've had a lot of people quote Revelations 1:7 to me and say the whole world is going to literally see Jesus, at his second coming. I don't agree that the scriptures support the idea of the whole world literally seeing Jesus at his second coming. I believe that people(unbelievers) of the world will not take note of anything until they are being destroyed by God at Armageddon. People(unbelievers) in Noah's day took no note until they were being destroyed so I believe it will be the same for people(unbelievers) in the last days, that they will not take no note until they're being destroyed. Noah in his day told the people(unbelievers)what was coming, but the people(unbelievers) didn't believe him and scoffed at him. It will be the same in the last days. There will be servants of the true God during the last days, telling people(unbelievers) they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ and the great tribulation and Armageddon are very close, but the people(unbelievers) will scoff at them, just as the people(unbelievers) in Noah's day scoffed at him. So I think the only thing people(unbelievers) will take note of is their being destroyed, then they'll know they were living in the second presence of Jesus Christ.
As far as what Revelation 1:7 says, I don't believe Revelation1:7 will contradict other scriptures like John 14:19 where Jesus said, "A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you will behold me, because I live and you will live.” If you read the scriptures after Jesus was resurrected from the dead which includes the forty days he was on earth after his resurrection, you'll see only his followers(disciples) saw him on repeated occasions. You'll find nowhere in scripture that Jesus appeared to any unbeliever after his resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:3-8)The followers of Jesus(disciples) have the hope that after their own death and resurrection they will personally see Jesus Christ again. But the world of mankind alienated from God(unbelievers) has no such hope and therefore would never again behold Jesus. So the world hasn't literally beheld anymore, and will not literally see Jesus anymore.
Acts 1:11 says "This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." The angel didn't say Jesus would return in the like body or form, but in the same manner. Well what was the manner in which Jesus ascended to heaven? It was quietly, it wasn't a public display that the whole world saw. The only ones who saw Jesus ascend to heaven were Jesus followers(disciples)? So at the time of Jesus second presence, the only ones who will acknowledge mankind is living in the second presence of Jesus Christ is believers, not unbelievers. It will remain that way until Armageddon is happening then the unbelievers will know they are living in the last days and it's God who is destroying them.

 

[JLB]

Thats why I do not have much interest sticking around, here.
Commenst just like yours,
Thats so cliche. so of the world.
I came here, one reason of many waas for research, I can read my bk collection, but one must go out into the world for forenics.
I pretty much got allI want here.
I even gave your posta LIKE
bc you are of help in my researches.

All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
Proverbs 8:8-9

 

[JLB]

I've had a lot of people quote Revelations 1:7 to me and say the whole world is going to literally see Jesus, at his second coming. I don't agree that the scriptures support the idea of the whole world literally seeing Jesus at his second coming.

Maybe we can discuss what Jesus says about His coming from the scriptures.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3


The first thing Jesus said about His coming and the end of the age --

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. Matthew 24:4

A lot of people have many different things to say about this subject as you yourself stated.

Let's look at what scripture teaches.


Words of Christ in red -


“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Matthew 24:26-28

• For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Even though lightning flashes many miles away we see it.




“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Signs we will see -

1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days
2. the sun will be darkened, and
3. the moon will not give its light;
4. the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
5. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,

• and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Matthew 24:33






JLB

 

[Barney Bright]

Maybe we can discuss what Jesus says about His coming from the scriptures.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3


The first thing Jesus said about His coming and the end of the age --

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. Matthew 24:4

A lot of people have many different things to say about this subject as you yourself stated.

Let's look at what scripture teaches.


Words of Christ in red -


“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Matthew 24:26-28

• For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Even though lightning flashes many miles away we see it.




“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Signs we will see -

1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days
2. the sun will be darkened, and
3. the moon will not give its light;
4. the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
5. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,

• and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Matthew 24:33






JLB

JBL said,
"Maybe we can discuss what Jesus says about His coming from the scriptures."[/QUOTE\]

I gave the scripture at John 14:19 where it says in part, "a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live." If you look at the scriptures after Jesus is resurrected from the dead you'll find no scripture that he appeared to any unbeliever. He only appeared to believers.(apostles and disciples)
So at Acts 1:11 the only ones that were there watching Jesus go into heaven were his apostles and disciples. The whole World didn't see this happen.The angel didn't say Jesus would return in the like body or form, but in the same manner. People keep focusing on the body Jesus will come back in, but Acts 1:11 tells you to focus on the manner Jesus left because that's the same manner he'll come back. Well what was the manner in which Jesus ascended to heaven? It was quietly, it wasn't a public display that the whole world saw. The only ones who saw Jesus ascend to heaven were Jesus followers(disciples) So at the time of Jesus second presence, the only ones who will acknowledge that mankind is living in the second presence of Jesus Christ are believers, not unbelievers. It will remain that way until Armageddon is happening then the unbelievers will know they are living in the last days and it's God who is destroying them. It's too late then.

 

[JLB]

JBL said,
"Maybe we can discuss what Jesus says about His coming from the scriptures."[/QUOTE\]

I gave the scripture at John 14:19 where it says in part, "a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live." If you look at the scriptures after Jesus is resurrected from the dead you'll find no scripture that he appeared to any unbeliever. He only appeared to believers.(apostles and disciples)
So at Acts 1:11 the only ones that were there watching Jesus go into heaven were his apostles and disciples. The whole World didn't see this happen.The angel didn't say Jesus would return in the like body or form, but in the same manner. People keep focusing on the body Jesus will come back in, but Acts 1:11 tells you to focus on the manner Jesus left because that's the same manner he'll come back. Well what was the manner in which Jesus ascended to heaven? It was quietly, it wasn't a public display that the whole world saw. The only ones who saw Jesus ascend to heaven were Jesus followers(disciples) So at the time of Jesus second presence, the only ones who will acknowledge that mankind is living in the second presence of Jesus Christ are believers, not unbelievers. It will remain that way until Armageddon is happening then the unbelievers will know they are living in the last days and it's God who is destroying them. It's too late then.

Please address the scriptures I gave that a contextual about His coming.

 

[DavidT]

Be very careful how this idea is being shared/taught.
There is no such thing as Yeshua coming on a Cloud, and floating through the air , riding on top this cloud,

** Hey Jesus its really you, wow,, you came back just as you said, riding atop a cloud,,, hey can you come and visit ourr church , we meet on sunday 10am, but you can come early if you want,,,see you then..**
This is a type of imagery the evangelists want their group to envision. as if its set in stone.
The truth is The 2nd coming has been going on for quite some time,
WEll since Yeshua went to His Father.
Every ntime Yeshua sends a out pouring = Yet another comming
These out pourings happen every 60 yrs since the bk of Acts.
1906 Azusa Street, Jesus Movement 1970;s and now as we approach yet another **2nd Coming** of Yeshua
Those who miss out receiving the spirit this outpouring will have to wait another 60 yrs.
Now that will be a time of great great tribulation the next 60 yrs.
Just look at the things Trump said past few days, and countless worship him. These things were spoken by the prophets, so we know with Israel in its last final battles, this is no time to hold ideas that are contrary to God's Kingdom.
The Rapture has been a ongoing process on 2000 yrs now. Look at Enoch, Raptured.. many followers of Yeshua were murdered Now I l know Yeshua saved them in some way from their final moments = raptured.
So get rid of this false idea of &&pre trib/mid/post rapture** Thats all from the great antichrist John Darby.
2nd coming is NOT a one time /one day event like a Hollywood movie script,
Rapture can happen anytime to anyone. Its not a **trib event*. The trib is what we all have to go through NOW,,and will intensify as the years roll on.
all souls will go through a trib one way or another at different times.
But we know of course there is a 3.5 yr intense trib the few remaining jews in Jeruslaem who escape into the desert caves when the gentiles invade and destroy Jerusalem. This is their great trib.
a remnant of a remnant will hold out, til Yeshua annihilates the gentile armies surround Jerusalem.
Now starts a longggggg recover of the few remnant survivors.
at that time the USA will be hardly noted as a nation.
In fact the great EQ that destroys Jerusalem will be same EQ that destroys every US city = No Washington DC. all US cities just piles of bricks.
So 2nd coming as the evangelicals believe, is all Hollywood fantasy
Rapture, not premidpost trib. Thats Darby's nonsense, antichrist stuff.
It could and will happen to many souls over the course of the next 100 yrs.
Stay far away from **eschatology**

That is complete.... hogwash malarkey, and not from God.

 

[YeshuaGlory]

That is complete.... hogwash malarkey, and not from God.

sure i agree, but then Yeshua says, MOST BLESSED are those who do NOTTT see, vs those who do seeme..
So I have no interest to **see** Yeshua floatijng down ona cloud of Glory
I would much prefer the MOST BLESSEDness of NOTTTT seeing Yeshua in person floating down exactly as He left us.
So when Yeshua comes in a cloud EXACTLY as He left us, = Not interested. bc then I get cheated out the MORE Blessed experience.
Look Yeshua on a Cloud of Glory,,, now I really really believe
are less in the kingdom than those who do not see Yeshua floating on a cloud of Glory
all the evangelicals want to see Yeshua comming back exactly as He said He would,,
Not me.
I want the more blessedness of NOT actually seeing Him Come.
Its in the bible,. Yeshua said it somewhere.
Besides His Comming on a Cloud is not the only way exprewssed that He will come, There are many other ways which He staes His Holy Comming,, Yeshua never said **And dont ever forget,, I am comming on a Cloud of Glory** over and over... He said it once or 2 x's,. He just did not want us to ONLY seek His Physical appearance. He wanted us to see His Apparance as not only a physical appearance but in other ways,
Follow??

 

[YeshuaGlory]

I've had a lot of people quote Revelations 1:7 to me and say the whole world is going to literally see Jesus, at his second coming. I don't agree that the scriptures support the idea of the whole world literally seeing Jesus at his second coming. I believe that people(unbelievers) of the world will not take note of anything until they are being destroyed by God at Armageddon. People(unbelievers) in Noah's day took no note until they were being destroyed so I believe it will be the same for people(unbelievers) in the last days, that they will not take no note until they're being destroyed. Noah in his day told the people(unbelievers)what was coming, but the people(unbelievers) didn't believe him and scoffed at him. It will be the same in the last days. There will be servants of the true God during the last days, telling people(unbelievers) they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ and the great tribulation and Armageddon are very close, but the people(unbelievers) will scoff at them, just as the people(unbelievers) in Noah's day scoffed at him. So I think the only thing people(unbelievers) will take note of is their being destroyed, then they'll know they were living in the second presence of Jesus Christ.
As far as what Revelation 1:7 says, I don't believe Revelation1:7 will contradict other scriptures like John 14:19 where Jesus said, "A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you will behold me, because I live and you will live.” If you read the scriptures after Jesus was resurrected from the dead which includes the forty days he was on earth after his resurrection, you'll see only his followers(disciples) saw him on repeated occasions. You'll find nowhere in scripture that Jesus appeared to any unbeliever after his resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:3-8)The followers of Jesus(disciples) have the hope that after their own death and resurrection they will personally see Jesus Christ again. But the world of mankind alienated from God(unbelievers) has no such hope and therefore would never again behold Jesus. So the world hasn't literally beheld anymore, and will not literally see Jesus anymore.
Acts 1:11 says "This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." The angel didn't say Jesus would return in the like body or form, but in the same manner. Well what was the manner in which Jesus ascended to heaven? It was quietly, it wasn't a public display that the whole world saw. The only ones who saw Jesus ascend to heaven were Jesus followers(disciples)? So at the time of Jesus second presence, the only ones who will acknowledge mankind is living in the second presence of Jesus Christ is believers, not unbelievers. It will remain that way until Armageddon is happening then the unbelievers will know they are living in the last days and it's God who is destroying them.

Excellent post,
Glad you helped me out here.
Good insights,, **SAME MANNER**
I maen OK Yeshua ate fish w the disciples,, they all slouthed back in **fear*** when Yeshua appeared,, Did Yeshua knock at the door..
**Hey its me, Yehua,, someone please open the door**
Yeshua walks ona path w 2 disciples,, the 3 talk about Yeshua's testimony in the Old Testament,,, Yeshua disappraes,, the 2 disciples **Like wow , who was that,, did I hearts not burn,,, I think it was Yeshua who was walking w us**
Etc Etc ETC.
Sure Peter sees Yeshua AFTER Yeshua says cast the net on the other side of the baot,, nets loaded,, THENNNN Peter realizes it is Yeshua**
ETc ETc
I mean if the disciples hardly recognized Yeshua,, what makes you so sure you will recognize Yeshua when He returns????
Point being,, we have 1 quote saying Yeshua will return EXDACTLY,,, no make that IN LIKE MANNER,,, as you see Him going now.,..
Yet I can find at least 3++ scriptures saying Yeshua's return is something different than a **cloud of Glory**.
Meaning lets not take things so literal.
and how do you know you will be around when Yeshua returns on THAT cloud of glory....??
So why even worry about that verse.
WE need to get our heads out **the clouds** and into whats going on , on earth..
The 2 angels said,, **Why are you looking up????**
Dont look up,, look here, now.
Revelation is not a Hollywood movie script.

 

[Barney Bright]

Please address the scriptures I gave that a contextual about His coming.

I have used scripture to support what I said. You want me to ignore John 14:19 and Acts 1:11 and I'm not. Jesus said at John 14 :19 that the world wouldn't see him again, his apostles and disciples would but not the world. After Jesus was resurrected, true to what Jesus said at John 14:19 no one but his apostles and disciples saw Jesus. You'll find nowhere in scripture after Jesus was resurrected that Jesus appeared to any unbeliever. At Acts 10:40, 41 Peter said Jesus only appeared to those who were Jesus apostles and disciples. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will come back in the manner he left. The whole world didn't see Jesus leave. That means Jesus will not come back with the whole world watching. The only ones who will truly believe that mankind is living in the second presence of Jesus Christ are believers not unbelievers.

 

[YeshuaGlory]

I have used scripture to support what I said. You want me to ignore John 14:19 and Acts 1:11 and I'm not. Jesus said at John 14 :19 that the world wouldn't see him again, his apostles and disciples would but not the world. After Jesus was resurrected, true to what Jesus said at John 14:19 no one but his apostles and disciples saw Jesus. You'll find nowhere in scripture after Jesus was resurrected that Jesus appeared to any unbeliever. At Acts 10:40, 41 Peter said Jesus only appeared to those who were Jesus apostles and disciples. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will come back in the manner he left. The whole world didn't see Jesus leave. That means Jesus will not come back with the whole world watching. The only ones who will truly believe that mankind is living in the second presence of Jesus Christ are believers not unbelievers.

Yes agree most part.
Again, when Yeshua did come back, His Disciples did not recognize Him. ,,,so even if Yeshua came ona cliud, BIG IF,, today, lets say,,
would all these evangelicals who keep looking up,,**could be any day now,, WW3 has started, Israel is in its 7 yr war*** would these evangelicals recognize Yeshua on His Cloud of Glory???
I doubt it.
No Yeshua does not look anything like the pictures we see of **Jesus** all over your church gift shops..
So if the disciples failed to recognize, until Yeshua REvealed Himself,, how would the evangelicals know it was Yeshua when they never actually walked w Him????
***Hey Yeshua,, is it really really you??? Can you come to our church sunday morning, our service starts 10 am,, pleaseeeee come**
As if Yeshua is going to park His cloud at their church and walk into their building.. Speaking in KING JAMES English!!!!!!
There are pastors that actually preach **Its so soon, any day now,, can t wait,,, ohh lets all get exicted** **wont be much longer,,,, we will all be changed in glory..***
I';ll fly away ohhh glory,,
Ill fly awayyyyyyy

 

[hawkman]

There are pastors that actually preach **Its so soon, any day now,, can t wait,,, ohh lets all get exicted** **wont be much longer,,,, we will all be changed in glory..***
I';ll fly away ohhh glory,,
Ill fly awayyyyyyy

Don't you want to fly away too ?
1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[DavidT]

I'm trying to figure out, is Barney trying to support a 'secret' pre-trib rapture? The false Pre-trib Rapture school doesn't really use that idea about a 'secret' coming by Jesus to gather the Church prior to the great tribulation; that was John Darby in the 1830's that suggested the idea of a 'secret' coming. But the way Pre-trib today pushes their doctrine, they still are suggesting it will happen in secret, which according to God's Word that is not true one bit.

Acts 1 which says every eye will see Jesus coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him (meaning unbelieving Jews), is emphatic, and opposes any secret coming idea.

Per Acts 1, Jesus ascended to Heaven on a cloud, in view of His disciples. And the angel told His disciples there, at the Mount of Olives, that Jesus would come in like manner. Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus is to return to earth with His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended from. So it doesn't take much common sense to understand He will return involving a literal 'battle' on earth at His coming too. Thus every eye will see Him coming in the clouds like Rev.1 says.

 

[Barney Bright]

I'm trying to figure out, is Barney trying to support a 'secret' pre-trib rapture? The false Pre-trib Rapture school doesn't really use that idea about a 'secret' coming by Jesus to gather the Church prior to the great tribulation; that was John Darby in the 1830's that suggested the idea of a 'secret' coming. But the way Pre-trib today pushes their doctrine, they still are suggesting it will happen in secret, which according to God's Word that is not true one bit.

Acts 1 which says every eye will see Jesus coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him (meaning unbelieving Jews), is emphatic, and opposes any secret coming idea.

Per Acts 1, Jesus ascended to Heaven on a cloud, in view of His disciples. And the angel told His disciples there, at the Mount of Olives, that Jesus would come in like manner. Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus is to return to earth with His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended from. So it doesn't take much common sense to understand He will return involving a literal 'battle' on earth at His coming too. Thus every eye will see Him coming in the clouds like Rev.1 says.

I don't believe in any kind of rapture because I don't agree that the scriptures support a rapture. Also the second presence of Jesus Christ isn't a secret to those who are Jesus Christ disciples. Only Jesus apostles and disciples saw Jesus ascend into heaven, so only Jesus disciples will know when the second presence of Jesus Christ begins. Just because the disciples of Jesus Christ tell the world that the second presence of Jesus Christ has begun and the world doesn't believe it, that doesn't make Jesus Christ second presence a secret, it just means that just as the people in Noah's day didn't believe him in what he said, those who are Jesus disciples living during the second presence of Jesus Christ are not believed, when they say that they're living in the time of Jesus Christ second presence.

Concerning Zechariah 14, I believe earthly Jerusalem represents or symbolizes heavenly Jerusalem, so I believe the mountain of the olive trees, which were in front of earthly Jerusalem are also to be taken as symbolic.(Zechariah 14:3-5) What does that mountain represent? In the Bible, mountains can represent kingdoms, or governments. Also, blessings and protection are associated with God's mountain(Psalm 72:3; Isaiah 25:6,7) So I believe the mountain of the olive trees on which God stands to the east of earthly Jerusalem represents YHWH God's universal sovereignty, his ruler ship.
I believe what is indicated by the division of the mountain of olive trees is that this mountain which is east of Jerusalem is split in the sense that YHWH God establishes another ruler ship, a subsidiary one. This second ruler ship is the heavenly Messianic Kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ. That's why I believe YHWH God speaks of the two mountains that result from the splitting of, the Mount of Olives, as being my mountains. I believe both of them are his.
When the mountain splits, half to the north and half to the south, YHWH God's feet remain set upon both mountains, so a very great valley comes into existence beneath YHWH God's feet. I believe this valley is symbolic and represents divine protection, by which YHWH God's servants who are Jesus disciples find safety under YHWH God's universal sovereignty. So YHWH God will make sure that pure worship will never be snuffed out. When will the division of the mountain of olive trees take place? It takes place when the second presence of Jesus Christ begins when he stands up in heaven, and begins ruling as king amongst his enemies. When will the flight of true worshippers to this symbolic valley begin? It begins when true worshippers of the true God YHWH are liberated from Babylon the great, which I believe is the World Empire of False Religion. So I don't agree with someone who says that Jesus Christ will literally in a physical body be on earth again, especially when you take into account what Jesus said at John 14:19 when he said the world wouldn't see him no more. Also at Acts 1:11 saying Jesus will come back in the same manner he left. The whole world, meaning all eyes of the world didn't see Jesus Christ ascend to heaven. So to come back in the same manner Jesus left, means the literal eyes of people of the world wouldn't see Jesus second presence when it begins, only his disciples will know that the second presence of Jesus Christ has begun. Like I said before this isn't a secret return. People think that just because Jesus disciples will know that they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ, that this is a secret return, but it isn't because Jesus disciples will tell the world that they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ. Just because the world doesn't believe that to be true, doesn't mean it's a secret return.

 

[DavidT]

I don't believe in any kind of rapture because I don't agree that the scriptures support a rapture. Also the second presence of Jesus Christ isn't a secret to those who are Jesus Christ disciples. Only Jesus apostles and disciples saw Jesus ascend into heaven, so only Jesus disciples will know when the second presence of Jesus Christ begins. Just because the disciples of Jesus Christ tell the world that the second presence of Jesus Christ has begun and the world doesn't believe it, that doesn't make Jesus Christ second presence a secret, it just means that just as the people in Noah's day didn't believe him in what he said, those who are Jesus disciples living during the second presence of Jesus Christ are not believed, when they say that they're living in the time of Jesus Christ second presence.

I certainly cannot agree with that.

God's Word already gave examples of one being 'raptured', but in the flesh, from one location on earth to another location on earth...

Acts 8:39-40
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV

Same Greek word harpazo is used there for "caught away" that is used in 1 Thess.4:17 with "caught up".

There's also an example in the Book of Ezekiel with Ezekiel being caught away by The LORD to another location on earth.

The difference with the "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4:17 when Jesus comes, is being changed to our spirit body on the "last trump" and then caught up to Jesus at His descending to earth, on His way to the Mount of Olives.

Thus your idea also goes against the Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 proof that Jesus will return literally to the Mount of Olives where His disciples saw Him ascend to Heaven from. That means a literal appearance by Jesus coming on a cloud, like how He ascended.

 

[JLB]

I have used scripture to support what I said. You want me to ignore John 14:19 and Acts 1:11 and I'm not. Jesus said at John 14 :19 that the world wouldn't see him again, his apostles and disciples would but not the world. After Jesus was resurrected, true to what Jesus said at John 14:19 no one but his apostles and disciples saw Jesus.

If you look at the scriptures after Jesus is resurrected from the dead you'll find no scripture that he appeared to any unbeliever.

At Acts 10:40, 41 Peter said Jesus only appeared to those who were Jesus apostles and disciples. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will come back in the manner he left. The whole world didn't see Jesus leave. That means Jesus will not come back with the whole world watching. The only ones who will truly believe that mankind is living in the second presence of Jesus Christ are believers not unbelievers.

No where did you address the scriptures I quoted that contextually pertain to His Coming.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3


The first thing Jesus said about His coming and the end of the age --

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. Matthew 24:4

A lot of people have many different things to say about this subject as you yourself stated.

Let's look at what scripture teaches.


Words of Christ in red -


“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Matthew 24:26-28

• For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Even though lightning flashes many miles away we see it.



“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Signs we will see -

1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days
2. the sun will be darkened, and
3. the moon will not give its light;
4. the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
5. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,

• and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Matthew 24:33


Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:7-8

• He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him

Every eye will see Him at His coming.





JLB