2nd Coming has already happened??

[noblej6]

Hi BobRyan"

One of the advertisers of this board presented this link arguing that the 2nd coming has already happened many many times - as a personnal 2nd coming

I would think it is a very common understanding of scripture.

It involves the parousia or the coming of the son of man occurring in 70 Ad for the first time and then the second coming experience to be at the time of the personal death of all people who die from then on.

It does mean that the coming is in the spiritual realm and the resurrections of the dead are over and the dead have been resurrected to heaven.
I'm surprised that it seems so new to many here.
An example of a verse to start off the support for this would be with Jesus returning to Heaven in Acts 1. He will return in like manner the bible says:
Here is what the NASB says about Jesus in the tomb...
Acts 10
40"God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

noblej6

 

[Bick]

Hi BobRyan"

One of the advertisers of this board presented this link arguing that the 2nd coming has already happened many many times - as a personnal 2nd coming

I would think it is a very common understanding of scripture.

It involves the parousia or the coming of the son of man occurring in 70 Ad for the first time and then the second coming experience to be at the time of the personal death of all people who die from then on.

It does mean that the coming is in the spiritual realm and the resurrections of the dead are over and the dead have been resurrected to heaven.
I'm surprised that it seems so new to many here.
An example of a verse to start off the support for this would be with Jesus returning to Heaven in Acts 1. He will return in like manner the bible says:
Here is what the NASB says about Jesus in the tomb...
Acts 10
40"God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

noblej6

MY COMMENTS: Is the above quote your belief, that Jesus personal bodily presence to the earth was in 70 A.D.? And is the rest of it also something that can be verified by Scripture?

 

[noblej6]

Hi Bick,

MY COMMENTS: Is the above quote your belief, that Jesus personal bodily presence to the earth was in 70 A.D.? And is the rest of it also something that can be verified by Scripture?

The parousia or coming of the son of man is not a physical or visible to mortals return. He returns to the dead in the spiritual realm.
This is the way that I see it, but it is not of MY design at all, I didn't dream in up so to speak.

Biblical verification would be:

2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We are made aware of that judgment after death.

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Only Jesus judges.....
John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

A favorable judgment yields eternal life and that is here
2 cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

That is one way that we can understand a spiritual meeting with Jesus Christ and being raised to heaven for the eternal life.
There are others that I have seen, but that is maybe one of the easier to look at.

 

[ephesus32]

2nd coming yet?? i dont think so... otherwise i would be gone

 

[Bubba]

There are Full Preterist and Moderate Preterist, which I fit the latter. In a “nut shell†, the Full Preterist believes that Jesus came back in judgment upon Jerusalem and the whole Jewish sacrificial system ending one age (Jewish) and beginning a new age (Gentile age of the Church), and that there is not a physical second coming of Jesus. They as the Moderate Preterist give an early writing of The Book of the Revelation and many see Nero as the beast and tyrant spoken of there. A Moderate Preterist (or Partial Preterist), believes that Christ did come in judgment an 70 A.D. and Rome was the instrument, thus fulfilling Scripture such as Mt. 10:23,Mt.16:28 and Mt24:34 of this generation witnessing the catastrophic event of the fall of Jerusalem. A Moderate Preterist also believes that Christ will eventually come back physically at the end of the age and thus usher end the new earth and heavens. The positive aspect of the Preterist position is that it brings understanding to Jesus’ warnings to the Jewish religious leaders and being thrown in the Valley of Gehenna. This certainly happen after Titus had surrounded the city and starved the inhabitants of Jerusalem and then entered and destroyed both the people and the Temple and leaving them to burn in this valley near the city. The Preterist position also silences the critics (like Bertran Russell) who stated that the impending doom spoken of in the New Testament by both Jesus and His disciples never occurred. If anyone is interested in this theological position, I suggest the book written by R.C. Sproul, “The Last Days According to Jesusâ€Â, or visit a Preterist web site.
In His Grace, Bubba

 

[sands]

Jesus will come back...It has not happened yet...But it will and soon.

 

[XTruth]

Jesus will come back...It has not happened yet...But it will and soon.

Agreed, I have not ever heard about the following happening. I did sleep a lot in school though, so correct me if this has happened please.

Rev.19:11-16
" 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

[4thangelofEuphrates]

Know this little children that there are two wars in revelations, there was the one before
the first resurrection and the one that is after the first resurrection. Little children know
that the end of the first war and before the first resurrection the Dragon was bound in the
bottomless pit, and that after the first resurrection was the Dragon released from the
bottomless pit.

Know that in the middle between the two wars, those that had not worshiped the beast or
his image, and had not received the mark of the beast, were given thrones and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years and they shall be priests of God and of Christ, ( but
the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.)

Let him/her that hath wisdom and understand, hear and understand.

 

[Cornelius]

See, what those people don't understand is this.

There are two words used when it speaks of jesus "coming".
One is epiphanea and the other is parousia.

They mean different things.
The epiphanea is Christ coming in the believer, in his people.
The parousia is him actually coming back in his own body, not just his new body, the body of Christ.
If you look at the places where each is used, and keep that reference in mind, it'll make a lot more sense.

Hope that helps to clear it up.
Look into it for yourselves of course, it's probably something you've never noticed or been told about.
I had no clue until about, oh, probably about a year and a half ago.
Not many places I've gone have people even known there were two different words used.

Here is a good site to learn more about that and of course many other things you've probably never known about, you can just use the google search on the page to find whatever it is you're looking for.

http://www.UnleavenedBreadMinistries.org

- Marc Stinebaugh

OK, I agree with Marc.

The Bible does mention two returns of the Lord. One IN us and the other on the CLOUDS
The one is the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8 ) and the other is the return at the end of the tribulation
The first return is also painted in Rev 12 as the coming of the man child
That is when we shall be like him:1Jn 3:2 ....... We know that, if he shall be manifested,(First return IN us ) we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

Its what the Bible calls, "a fullgrown man" (Chirst in us the hope of glory) Eph 4:13 till we all attain...... unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Its the fullness of Christ manifesting in the end times. Its "scheduled" for the end time and we can see this in the whole Bible, but it is very clear in the story of Moses and Joseph.(Types of "man child" in the Bible)

Here Jesus also is describing this "return" (He is not speaking here of his coming on the clouds as you can see.) Notice His answer when they ask Him about His return. They are asking about the return on the clouds and He is answering them about His return IN THEM.

Notice how this picture, is the same as Rev 12:

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.
Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child,.......

 

[researcher]

One of the advertisers of this board presented this link arguing that the 2nd coming has already happened many many times - as a personnal 2nd coming

http://www.hallvworthington.com/endworld.html


Is this teaching common where you live? I almost never hear of it -- and it seems to be careful to avoid the 2thess 2:1-3 argument against what it is claiming.

Your thoughts?

Bob

I used to think that the second coming hadn't happened yet. After much study, I believe there is ample evidence that Jesus did in fact come back in the first century like he told the disciples he would. I think there is a lot of confusion or misinterpretation of symbolic language used in the Bible that leads people to believe it hasn't happened yet. The next thing we should see is the bride coming out of heaven (Rev 21:9 & 10) where Jesus took them.

Oh, I'm a newbie here. Fascinating discussion though. :D

And Hi C and Gzuz, ltns. :D

 

[researcher]

Jesus will come back...It has not happened yet...But it will and soon.

Agreed, I have not ever heard about the following happening. I did sleep a lot in school though, so correct me if this has happened please.

Rev.19:11-16
" 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Yes. It most likely already happened. There wasn't a literal sword coming out of Jesus' mouth slashing people to death. LOL. :D

The sword is the word of God.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

So, the verse would read -

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of God, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

And 19:21 would read -

Rev 19:21 and the rest were killed with the word of God of him that sat upon the horse, even the word of God which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

He also said to the church of Pergamum that he would fight them with a sword -

Rev 2:16 Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Which would read -

Rev 2:16 Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the word of God.

No chopping up people or killing them literally. The sword is the word of God.

And in Rev. 19:21, the birds would be spirits (angels, good or bad) not literal birds

Rev 19:21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jesus told us who the birds were -

Parable -Seeds by the wayside
Mat 13:3 And he spake to them many things in parables, saying, Behold, the sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the birds came and devoured them:

(actually bird in this case means "a flying animal" Strong's # G4071)

Interpretation -Seeds by the wayside
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.

That bird was Satan. But good birds (spirits (of peace, patience, joy, love etc)) rest on those who hear the word and mature

Mat 13:31 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 which indeed is less than all seeds; but when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the heaven come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Now, we all know that mature Christians don't have flocks of birds flying all around them, and, birds don't literally come pecking on people when they first hear the gospel. Those are symbolic for spirits. Same with Rev. 19:21.

So, no blood bath, no literal birds pecking flesh, LOL. :D


Jesus told the people in the 1st century he was coming back for them -

He had John write letters and said to them -

To Pergamum
Rev 2:13 I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan's throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Antipas was a real person, who really died. The people at Pergamum would have known him. So these letters were in real time, to real people. Imagine if Antipas weren't a real person and the church at Pergamum got this letter. They'd be like, "who the heck is Antipas??" These letters were specifically pertinent to those people, in that time. ;)

And he said to the actual living and breathing Philadelphians
Rev 3:11 'I am coming quickly! Be holding fast what you have, so that no one shall receive your victor's wreath. (Analytical/Literal Version)

Jesus told the church at Philadelphia to hold fast to what they had because he was coming quickly. He didn't tell them to wait for newer, nicer government officials, or, to hold on until they died. He told real people, 1900 and some odd years ago to hold on in the midst of their persecution, because he was coming for them. I would fully expect he kept his promise.

And after they were gone, the Catholic church rose. Which isn't exactly the kind of church I think the apostles would have built.

 

[researcher]

Wow. Pretty sedate responses. ;)

 

[Vic C.]

Wow. Pretty sedate responses. ;)

Ok, I'll respond:

Mat 13:31 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 which indeed is less than all seeds; but when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the heaven come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Now, we all know that mature Christians don't have flocks of birds flying all around them, and, birds don't literally come pecking on people when they first hear the gospel. Those are symbolic for spirits

The seed is God's word. The tree is Jesus. The branches are the ekklesia. The birds are just lodging. They say they are believers, but they are not. They are just looking to pick at and ruin the fruit of the tree, then expel their waste on the branches.

True believers don't "lodge". They are "grafted" into the tree. Lodging birds eventually fly off and lodge into another tree and the whole process starts all over again.

The Adversary is ruthless and relentless.

 

[researcher]

Wow. Pretty sedate responses. ;)

Ok, I'll respond:

Mat 13:31 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 which indeed is less than all seeds; but when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the heaven come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Now, we all know that mature Christians don't have flocks of birds flying all around them, and, birds don't literally come pecking on people when they first hear the gospel. Those are symbolic for spirits

The seed is God's word. The tree is Jesus. The branches are the ekklesia. The birds are just lodging. They say they are believers, but they are not. They are just looking to pick at and ruin the fruit of the tree, then expel their waste on the branches.

True believers don't "lodge". They are "grafted" into the tree. Lodging birds eventually fly off and lodge into another tree and the whole process starts all over again.

The Adversary is ruthless and relentless.

Hey Vic. Thanks for the reply. :D

I was trying to stick to birds, but, let's see here -

Mat 13:37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

In context with Matt 13 the sower was Jesus, the seeds were the sons of the kingdom, they grew to maturity (i.e. trees (Mat 13:32)), then the birds came to lodge in their branches.

Now, keeping in context, Jesus explained that the first bird who devoured the seed was Satan

Let's replace seed with "sons of the kingdom (Matt13:38)
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some sons of the kingdom fell by the way side, and the birds (Satan (Mat 13:19)) came and devoured them:

So, Satan devoured some of sons of the kingdom, and, he's symbolized as a bird (Mat 13:4 & 19)

Mat 13:31 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 which indeed is less than all seeds; but when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the heaven come and lodge in the branches thereof.

So the seed that took root is a son of the kingdom, grows into a tree (maturity), then the birds of heaven come to lodge in his branches. If the first bird was a spirit (Satan), I would say the birds in 13:32 would be spirits also (good ones) which lodge with the son of the kingdom that grew to maturity. (Notice the "heaven" part in "birds of Heaven.") ;) :D

Examples:
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?

Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you
a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Rom 1:4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,

The word "birds" means "flying animal" (Strong's # G4071) in both cases. I believe it's singular but I'm not sure. Either way, I think we could say, the first bird is Satan, and, the second, would be the Holy Spirit, dwelling in the person who grew to maturity thus giving off the fruits of the Spirit etc. :D

 

[noblej6]

Hi forum,

I see some references to Matthew 13 in a post.

I would like to point out a flow of biblical information which starts with these verses:

37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

I would like to point attention to where it says the 'harvest is the end of the age'.

We can read about this harvest of the earth again in Rev 14:
The Harvest of the Earth
14I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

So here we have the harvest of the earth taking place and that harvest of the earth, is at the end of the age, and it is also the time of the wrath of God as we read later in the chapter.


19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

The real thing to consider here is what Jesus told John just before John watched this unfold. This is the time of the wrath, the enemies of God are about to feel the wrath of God. To some this is the end of life and death on earth as we know it, to many this is the time when Jesus returns in His physical earthly body to earth again. However, as I mentioned earlier we have to consider what Jesus said to John and that is just up a bit in this chapter at verse 13.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
So unless we are willing to accept that those who experience the wrath of God are somehow blessed, it would mean that followers of Christ continue to physically die AFTER that wrath of God/great tribulation.

This is one of the many verses which lad me to the idea of being raised to heavenly life at the time of our physical death, a process that had it's beginning in the first century.
It would mean there is one second coming per person and that would be in the spiritual realm to heaven.

2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

I always thought that the vast majority of Christians felt the second coming and the being raised to heaven occurs at the personal death of each individual. IOW, I'm surprised in the opposite direction of posters here who say they have never heard this before.

Interesting thread, good luck in your discussions,

noblej6

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Vic. Thanks for the reply. :D

I was trying to stick to birds, but, let's see here -

LOL, so was I, I think. :D

Hey noblej6, how are you?

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

Doing very well thanks.

Good to see your site going good, I stop by and read once in a while, but I'm not super active carrying on multiple conversations anymore.

Have fun guys,

noblej6

 

[Vic C.]

This is one of the many verses which lad me to the idea of being raised to heavenly life at the time of our physical death, a process that had it's beginning in the first century.
It would mean there is one second coming per person and that would be in the spiritual realm to heaven....

... I always thought that the vast majority of Christians felt the second coming and the being raised to heaven occurs at the personal death of each individual. WOW, I'm surprised in the opposite direction of posters here who say they have never heard this before.

I'm not led to believe in a personal "catching up" or transformation immediately at death. This is a common belief among many RCs and probably other orthodox churches.

 

[Ret]

Know this little children that there are two wars in revelations, there was the one before
the first resurrection and the one that is after the first resurrection. Little children know
that the end of the first war and before the first resurrection the Dragon was bound in the
bottomless pit, and that after the first resurrection was the Dragon released from the
bottomless pit.

Know that in the middle between the two wars, those that had not worshiped the beast or
his image, and had not received the mark of the beast, were given thrones and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years and they shall be priests of God and of Christ, ( but
the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.)

Let him/her that hath wisdom and understand, hear and understand.

So, would you say we are presently in this 'thousand year' period, where the Dragon is released from the bottomless pit?

In my own study, I am trying to connect the dots about what you are saying here!

 

[researcher]

Know this little children that there are two wars in revelations, there was the one before
the first resurrection and the one that is after the first resurrection. Little children know
that the end of the first war and before the first resurrection the Dragon was bound in the
bottomless pit, and that after the first resurrection was the Dragon released from the
bottomless pit.

Know that in the middle between the two wars, those that had not worshiped the beast or
his image, and had not received the mark of the beast, were given thrones and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years and they shall be priests of God and of Christ, ( but
the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.)

Let him/her that hath wisdom and understand, hear and understand.

So, would you say we are presently in this 'thousand year' period, where the Dragon is released from the bottomless pit?

In my own study, I am trying to connect the dots about what you are saying here!

Hey Ret. I would say we are at the end of the millenium.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan,
and bound him for a thousand years,

The word used for "thousand" here is plural. Meaning 2 or more. I would say 2000.

Strong's definition for "Thousand" (plural)
G5507
Çίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

Strong's definition for "Thousand" (singular)
G5505
ÇιλιάÂ
chilias
khil-ee-as'
From G5507; one thousand (“chiliadâ€Â): - thousand.

The plural word is also used in these verses:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Insert "two" thousand in any of those verses. (heck, it could be more, but, I kind of doubt it.)