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The 2nd Coming

You'll find nowhere in scripture after Jesus was resurrected that Jesus appeared to any unbeliever.

As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:3-6


  • Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 9:17-18


again



Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1






JLB
 
DavidT said,
"Same Greek word harpazo is used there for "caught away" that is used in 1 Thess.4:17 with caught up."[/QUOTE\]

I disagree with what you stated in post #89 that what I stated in post #78 goes against Act 1 and Zechariah 14. I also understand what the Greek word harpazo means at 1 Thessalonians 4:17. I just keep the word harpazo in the context of the resurrection which is what the apostle Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians about at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. I'm not going to take that Greek word harpazo out of the context of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:35, 36 says, "Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies."
1 Corinthians 15: 42-44 says, "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption.” We know that when a human being has died, the human body decays and returns to the dust. The apostle Paul was not speaking of a human being who has died and who is resurrected to life on earth again, such as those that were raised back to life by Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus. Paul was referring to a person who is resurrected with a heavenly body, that is, a spiritual body. These with heavenly bodies or spiritual bodies will be immortal and incorruptible and will be in heaven with Jesus, they will not live on earth.

It's important to note that Jesus was not resurrected with a human body. John 6: 51 tells us that Jesus would sacrifice his human body for mankind. Paul said at 1 Corinthians 15:50 that “Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom” in heaven. The apostles and other anointed ones would not be resurrected to heaven with human corruptible bodies of flesh and blood.
When the second presence of Jesus Christ begins those who have died and slept in death in Hades will be resurrected first. We have to take note that these who have died before the second presence of Jesus Christ begins, sleep in death for a period of time, meaning they sleep in death in Hades for centuries of time.
1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 tells us that not all who will be in heaven with Jesus Christ will sleep in death, but they all will be changed, in a moment in a blink of an eye. This doesn't mean that some will not die, because Paul is still talking about the resurrection, it just means some will not sleep in death for a period of time like those who died and slept in death for a period of time before the second presence of Jesus Christ begins. So those who belong to Jesus Christ and are still alive on earth after the second presence of Jesus has begun, when they die it means they will not sleep in death for a period of time in Hades as those did before the second presence of Jesus Christ did, but instead it means that at the moment of their deaths, they're changed in a blink of an eye and caught away (harpazo) to be with Jesus. Using the word harpazo like this keeps it in the context of the resurrection, which is what Paul was discussing at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

The city of Jerusalem that's on earth is a pattern, of the greater Jerusalem which is in heaven. So Jerusalem is symbolic of heavenly Jerusalem, so “the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of Jerusalem,” is to be taken symbolically. (Zechariah 14:3-5.) In the Bible, mountains can represent kingdoms, or governments. Also, blessings and protection are associated with God’s mountain. (Psalms 72:3; Isaiah 25:6, 7) So, the mountain of the olive trees on which God stands to the east of earthly Jerusalem represents YHWH God's universal sovereignty, his supreme rulership.
The mountain, which is to the east of Jerusalem, splits in the sense that YHWH God establishes another rulership, a subsidiary one. This secondary rulership is the heavenly Messianic Kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ. That is why YHWH God speaks of the two mountains that result from the splitting of “the Mount of Olives” as being “my mountains," at Zechariah 14:4, because both of them are his.

When the symbolic mountain splits, half to the north and half to the south, YHWH God's feet remain set upon both mountains. “A very great valley” comes into existence beneath YHWH God's feet. This symbolic valley represents divine protection, by which YHWH God's servants find safety under his universal sovereignty and his Son’s heavenly Messianic Kingdom. YHWH God will make sure that pure worship will never be snuffed out. This division of the mountain of the olive trees takes place when the heavenly Messianic Kingdom is established at the end of the Gentile Times. The flight of true worshippers to the symbolic valley begins during the last days of this wicked world of mankind when the second presence of of Jesus is going on and Jesus Christ's brothers who are still on earth are freed from Babylon the Great, which is the world empire of false religion. That is when the flight to the valley of Jehovah’s mountains begins. So I disagree with you that what I said in post #78 goes against Acts 1 and Zechariah 14.
 
JLB quoted Matthew 24:26-31 which says,
Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."[/QUOTE\]
The apostle Paul was inspired to write 1 Timothy 15, 16 and some of the things Paul said was that, Jesus alone having immortality, and that Jesus dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.

From what I have read and researched from these scriptures, after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension to heaven, God glorified his only begotten Son to a glorified state that it can be truthfully said Jesus is described as one “whom not one of men has seen or can see.” It's true his anointed apostles and disciples would behold Jesus after their own death and subsequent resurrection to heaven as spirit creatures. (John 17:24) But no man on earth has seen Jesus in his glorified state that he was given after he ascended to heaven, so no man has seen Jesus in this glorified state and will not see Jesus in this glorified state. So I'm not going to agree with anyone who believes, the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ will lower himself from this glorified state.

At Matthew 24:29 where it says immediately after the tribulation of those days, I agree that there will be supernatural phenomenon happening, because immediately after the tribulation when Jesus has judged who are the sheep and goats, this is when Armageddon happens. Armageddon is what's being talked about when it says sun will be darkened, moon will not give it's light, etc. There is supernatural phenomenon happening when Jesus and the angels are fighting in the war of Armageddon. But I disagree that you'll literally see Jesus in some physical form, because I don't believe he'll lower himself from his glorified state of being immortal and in unappr

Jesus Christ second presence or parousia was to resemble the lightning as to its effects. His parousia was to be like the lightning, not in flashing suddenly, unexpectedly and in the fraction of a second. The emphasis here is not on the lightning’s striking instantaneously unannounced, but on its shining over a broad area, from eastern parts to western parts. (Luke 17:24) So, the inhabitants of the earth were not to be left in darkness respecting the parousia of the Son of man. From horizon to horizon all the people were to be enlightened concerning his regal parousia. It was to be made as public as is a flash of lightning by its illuminative power, its far-extended shining.

Parousia means “presence.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says: “PAROUSIA, . . . lit[erally], a presence, para, with, and ousia, being (from eimi, to be), denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with.
Other lexicons explain that parousia denotes ‘the visit of a ruler.’ So, it is not just the moment of arrival, but a presence extending from the arrival onward. Interestingly, that is how Jewish historian Josephus, a contemporary of the apostles, used parousia.
Spirit-anointed Christians in Paul’s day were interested in Jesus’ parousia. But Paul warned them not to be ‘shaken from their reason.’ First there must appear “the man of lawlessness." Paul wrote that “the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs.” (2 Thessalonians 2:2, 3, 9) So plainly, the parousia, or presence, of “the man of lawlessness” was not just a momentary arrival; it would extend over time, during which lying signs would be produced. This is significant because if you consider the verse immediately before that at 2 Thessalonians 2:8: “The lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.” Just as the presence of “the man of lawlessness” would be over a period of time, Jesus’ presence would extend for some time and would climax in the destruction of that lawless “son of destruction."

Jesud provided a sign so that his presence could be recognized, though most would take no note: “As the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”(Matthew 24:37-39)

During the days of Noah, most people of that generation just carried on with their normal affairs. Jesus foretold that it would be the same with “the presence of the Son of man.” The people around Noah might have felt that nothing different would happen. Those days, which spread over time, led to a climax, “the flood came and swept them all away.” Luke presents a similar account in which Jesus compared “the days of Noah” with “the days of the Son of man.” Jesus admonished: “The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.”(Luke 17:26-30)

The composite sign Jesus foretold was, wars, earthquakes, pestilences, food shortages, and persecution of his disciples. (Matthew 24:7-9; Luke 21:10-12) Most people will treat his sign as just a normal part of human history, so it will mean nothing to them. True Christians, however, sense the meaning of these momentous events, just as alert people understand from the leafing of a fig tree that summer is near. Jesus advised: “In this way you also, when you see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near.”(Luke 21:31)

Jesus directed much of his reply on the Mount of Olives to his followers. They were the ones to share in the lifesaving work of preaching the good news in all the earth before the end would come. They would be the ones who could discern “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, standing in a holy place.” They would be the ones to respond by “fleeing” before the great tribulation. And they would be the ones particularly affected by the added words: “Unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:9, 14-22)
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:3-6


  • Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 9:17-18


again



Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1






JLB
Paul only saw a blinding light, Jesus didn't appear to Paul in any Physical form as he did his apostles and disciples. Jesus said at John 14:19 that the world will not see him again but that they would, meaning Jesus followers. So as I said in the scriptures you will not find anywhere that Jesus appeared to any unbelievers after his resurrection. You'll find plenty of scriptures that shows Jesus appearing to his apostles and disciples(believers) after his resurrection. So what Jesus said at John 14:19 has proved to be true. Jesus will not appear in any physical form to unbelievers. Acts 1:11 shows the manner that Jesus ascended to heaven. Only believers were aware of this happening. Only believers will truly believe that they are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ, the world will not really believe that.
 
JBL I'm sorry, I messed up on my last post, #83. It was suppose to be two separate posts. I don't how I did that and I don't know how to fix it, so sorry
 
Paul only saw a blinding light, Jesus didn't appear to Paul in any Physical form as he did his apostles and disciples.

Again, I refer you to scripture, which plainly shows us Jesus Christ appeared to Paul.

As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:3-6


  • Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 9:17-18


again



Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1



JLB
 
Again, I refer you to scripture, which plainly shows us Jesus Christ appeared to Paul.

As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:3-6


  • Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 9:17-18


again



Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1



JLB
I refer you to that same scripture and tell you Paul saw no physical form of Jesus Christ, he only saw a light so bright it blinded him. All these scriptures you try to read into the text something that isn't there. Paul didn't see Jesus in any physical form, that's the truth, you don't want to believe that, that's fine, people have the right to believe what they want.
 
I refer you to that same scripture and tell you Paul saw no physical form of Jesus Christ, he only saw a light so bright it blinded him. All these scriptures you try to read into the text something that isn't there. Paul didn't see Jesus in any physical form, that's the truth, you don't want to believe that, that's fine, people have the right to believe what they want.

The scripture says …
  • Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road

The scripture says…

Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1

Basically all you have done is deny the scriptures.
 
The scripture says …
  • Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road

The scripture says…

Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1

Basically all you have done is deny the scriptures.
I haven't denied the scriptures because I said Paul didn't see any physical form of Jesus Christ and that all Paul saw was a light that blinded him. There's nothing in the scriptures concerning this event when Paul was blinded that he saw any physical form of Jesus. It looks to me you're trying to imply that Paul saw a physical form of Jesus as when he appeared to his apostles and disciples after he was resurrected, if so, I'm going to disagree, because there's nothing in this event when Paul saw this light and was blinded, that he saw any physical form of Jesus Christ. Just because Paul said he had seen Jesus Christ at 1 Corinthians 9:1 doesn't mean he saw any physical form of Jesus Christ. At Acts 22:6-9 says, "But as I was traveling and getting near to Damascus, about midday, suddenly out of heaven a great light flashed all around me, 7 and I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me: ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ 8 I answered: ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me: ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.’ 9 Now the men who were with me did see the light, but they did not hear the voice of the one speaking to me." This scripture confirms that all Paul saw was a light from heaven flash all around him. But take note the men with him saw the light but not only did they not hear a voice, but they were not blinded like Paul. So Paul didn't see any physical form of Jesus Christ. I'm not going to agree with anyone who even tries to imply that Jesus appeared to unbelievers in a physical form as he did with his apostles and disciples after he was resurrected. So I disagree that Revelation 1:7 means every human eye will look up and literally see a physical form of Jesus Christ simply because there are those who believe that. They have a right to that belief but I disagree that scripture means every human eye will literally see a physical form of Jesus Christ.
 
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I haven't denied the scriptures because I said Paul didn't see any physical form of Jesus Christ and that all Paul saw was a light that blinded him. There's nothing in the scriptures concerning this event when Paul was blinded that he saw any physical form of Jesus. It looks to me you're trying to imply that Paul saw a physical form of Jesus


Yes, that is what I am saying, because that is what the scriptures say.

I listed the scriptures.

The scripture says …
  • Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road

The scripture says…

Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1
 
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