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4004 BC

I am constantly amazed that some people actually believe the Earth is only 6,000+ years old. The very fact that we can see stars is proof that the universe/earth is much, much older. Estimates place the Earth at 4 billion-years old. When a hot star gets low on fuel, it starts converting the hydrogen to heavier metals. When the start explodes, it scatters those heavy elements in a blast radius. Gravity coalesces those elements into a flattened disk and gravity forms the planets. I honestly don't know why this is so hard for some monotheists to accept. Any G-d that could build a universe that has that natural process is wicked cool. :yes
 
Interesting how we have accepted the somewhat derogatory term "YE" referring to those who believe in a relatively Young Earth but we don't have a term yet for "OBB" (Old Beyond Belief).

Just because many adhere to science more than faith does not mean that God is a liar. The only "safe" (read: defensible) position that either side may take is, "I'm unsure." The discussion can not hinge on a popularity count. Stating "All Geologist Agree," or "According to MY church..." are similarly false claims that imply that the truth can be discovered through a census. I am reminded about a saying, "Billions of flies can't be wrong..." The saying goes on to suggest what our next meal should be basing the conclusion on their norm.

It is my firm belief that the Lord of all heaven and earth deliberately spoke in somewhat ambiguous terms. The Word is clear regarding What was done and by Whom (God said, "Let there be light...") but Bishop Usher's attempt to trace the age of the earth by extracting it from the formulas on the age of the patriarchs is a product of a mans' thoughts. Seems to me that the Lord doesn't want his children to get all that involved in stupid arguments merely for the sake of argument.

Proverbs 3:5-7 KJV said:
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Will there be no end to this? There will. It is good to wait upon the Lord, none who trust in Him will be embarrassed or ashamed.
Psalms 2:1-5 NKJV said:
WHY do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

"Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us."

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The LORD shall hold them in derision.
Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure:

Finding distress would be bad, but finding it as it comes from the "deep displeasure" of the LORD? Worse. Let us not fail to consider Him in all things.



~Sparrow
 
The date of creation, as calculated by somebody, using the genealogies and ages of people in the bible. Can anyone tell me which genealogies etc? so I can check it out for myself.

Frank Klassen was an engineer - an architect by trade. He drew a graphic timeline of Bible history. He said that history is well documented from the time of Alexander until today. He worked backwards from then using mostly the timetable taken from the Bible and found that Adam was created on Friday April 1st 3975BC. He also calculated that Jesus was born on April 1st 5BC. The veil of the temple was also hung on April 1st - can't remember the year. The veil was a symbol of Christ's body.

His book "The Chronology of the Bible" has been out of print for sometime. It came out in the Mid 70's. If you look around you can usually find a used copy of it. It is interesting to see the graphical timelines as well as the blood line to the Messiah.

This is one of my most valued books. I have never had a problem with it and I still use it fequently.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0006X2900/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&condition=all
Larry
 
I am constantly amazed that some people actually believe the Earth is only 6,000+ years old. The very fact that we can see stars is proof that the universe/earth is much, much older. Estimates place the Earth at 4 billion-years old. When a hot star gets low on fuel, it starts converting the hydrogen to heavier metals. When the start explodes, it scatters those heavy elements in a blast radius. Gravity coalesces those elements into a flattened disk and gravity forms the planets. I honestly don't know why this is so hard for some monotheists to accept. Any G-d that could build a universe that has that natural process is wicked cool. :yes

HE is beyond wicked cool. He is the greatest and only real G-D that exists. Just as you are amazed that people believe the earth is only 6000 years old others are equally amazed that people believe what some scientist says with no hard evidence just a lot of theories. I have a double Degree in Anthropology and Psychology it was while doing a paper about evolution (in relation to a anthropology paper) that I first questioned my beliefs. I mean what I was being taught as fact had no hard evidence. Yet people readily believed it just because some one with a fancy qualification (PhD) taught it as fact. God makes way more logical sense to me that a whole bunch of mindless theories with no true facts. Humans are so gullible.
 
The date of creation, as calculated by somebody, using the genealogies and ages of people in the bible. Can anyone tell me which genealogies etc? so I can check it out for myself.



Friends, Dear ProphetMark, Why not 5509 or 5508 BC, starting on Sept. 1 of either year. That is approximately where the Constantinopolitan (Byzantine) Church calculated the creation of the world. The Ethiopians and the Georgians and the Armenians, etc. may have different dates than the Greeks and the Russians. Anyway, that makes us in the year 7519 from creation by this 5508 BC date.

GOD ONLY KNOWS THE ANSWER TO THIS, ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT TIME FOR ALL THINGS PAST AND WHAT TIME FOR ANY THINGS FUTURE. In Erie Scott H.
:pray
 
The person was a monk. He wasn't familiar with the science in the world that God had created, and his methods were simply to use the alleged ages of people in the Bible (not even taking into account changes in how people measured time in years). If I can find the man's name, I'll post it.

However, now days, God has shown us through this world and science that the world is millions of years old, and the universe even older. It is interesting, however, how the monk came to his "conclussions.'

Sure, the 'devil' does your millions stuff!! :screwloose
Job says that God hung the earth on nothing! And David was Inspired to say.. that God SPAKE, and it STOOD FAST!

But who believes God, huh?? Gen. 3:4

--Elijah
 
Yeah, it was Ussher. I wouldn't take that date for the "Gospel Truth." He used the genealogies but that will only get you so close. How they think they can say the exact month, date, and time of day is calculated is REALLY ridiculous. I don't know if ussher even considered the lunar calendar of the Hebrews. You know, the one that relies on visibly seeing the New Moon. Also, there is the problem of lives overlapping. (You cannot count the age of Adam and then begin the age of Seth. I dont know if Seth's birth was given in terms of Adam's age, but you know what I mean) The generations of Jesus, for example is a list of names. You cannot possibly know all the ages of all the fathers when they sired their sons. Also, the kinship system of the ancient Hebrews was not quite what we have today. Sometimes, ancestors may have been skipped. Ex. "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." Notice how certain people can be highlighted as the father of? The children of Aaron are such a case. It gets complicated. Also, the kinship was different in that men who died without conceiving in their wives were without heir. So, the next of kin to the dead man, such as a brother had the duty of performing this to the dead man's wife in raising up seed as if the child were of the dead man's own body. A textbook example of this is the story of Onan in Genesis, and later Judah.
 
Man, this is the stuff that makes religion look bad. Refusing to believe that God could create a world that is ever changing just so you can keep your selfish manmade beliefs. Just the fact that someone thinks they can even come close to fathoming the unimaginable possibilities of what God has done is ridiculous to me. Especially after they say stuff like God is all powerful and all knowing. Somehow, everything in the bible is everything God could possibly have done.

In the beginning God created the universe in 6 days. To us, a day is one rotation of our planet. To God, how can you even fathom what a day is to God? Time probably stands still for God. A day could have been thousands of years. A day could have been billions.

(Man, someone is going to say science is manmade in some way after that second sentence. :sad)
 
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Man, this is the stuff that makes religion look bad. Refusing to believe that God could create a world that is ever changing just so you can keep your selfish manmade beliefs. Just the fact that someone thinks they can even come close to fathoming the unimaginable possibilities of what God has done is ridiculous to me. Especially after they say stuff like God is all powerful and all knowing. Somehow, everything in the bible is everything God could possibly have done.

In the beginning God created the universe in 6 days. To us, a day is one rotation of our planet. To God, how can you even fathom what a day is to God? Time probably stands still for God. A day could have been thousands of years. A day could have been billions.

(Man, someone is going to say science is manmade in some way after that second sentence. :sad)

To whom was this addressed?

The days of the creation week, by the way cannot be more than a natural day (Hebrew yom) because in the context, God sets the sun and the moon in motion to reign over the day and night

Now, the fulfillment of the creation week may be 1 day = 1,000 years in that the 7th day (7,000th year since creation) could mark the Millennial Sabbath.
 
HE is beyond wicked cool. He is the greatest and only real G-D that exists. Just as you are amazed that people believe the earth is only 6000 years old others are equally amazed that people believe what some scientist says with no hard evidence just a lot of theories. I have a double Degree in Anthropology and Psychology it was while doing a paper about evolution (in relation to a anthropology paper) that I first questioned my beliefs. I mean what I was being taught as fact had no hard evidence. Yet people readily believed it just because some one with a fancy qualification (PhD) taught it as fact. God makes way more logical sense to me that a whole bunch of mindless theories with no true facts. Humans are so gullible.

The science is there, it is a matter of whether you will accept it or not. For instance, we know what the speed of light is, and we can view galaxies that are 13,230 million light years away. Therefore, we know that the universe is at least 13 billion years old. To say the Earth is only 6,000+ years old should be relegated with flat-earth theories.
 
The science is there, it is a matter of whether you will accept it or not. For instance, we know what the speed of light is, and we can view galaxies that are 13,230 million light years away. Therefore, we know that the universe is at least 13 billion years old. To say the Earth is only 6,000+ years old should be relegated with flat-earth theories.

The Bible does not say the universe was created in 6 days. It says the heavens and Earth were created. It goes into the six day process of forming and occupying the Earth, but does not say that the Earth was immediate in its formation to the universe.
 
As opposed to thinking they can understand the entirety of the universe by other means?

I'd rather listen to someone spout off scientific theories about how life could exist in the universe than hear someone say there can't be life in the universe, God didn't write it in his tiny book.
 
The Bible does not say the universe was created in 6 days. It says the heavens and Earth were created. It goes into the six day process of forming and occupying the Earth, but does not say that the Earth was immediate in its formation to the universe.

So in Genesis, you believe the word heaven (הַשָּׁמַיִם) refers to the sky? To me that interpretation makes the most sense. The Hebrew word translated as "heaven" is linked with the concept of the sea/ocean, since ancient peoples routinely thought the sky held water (because of the blue colour).
 
So in Genesis, you believe the word heaven (הַשָּׁמַיִם) refers to the sky? To me that interpretation makes the most sense. The Hebrew word translated as "heaven" is linked with the concept of the sea/ocean, since ancient peoples routinely thought the sky held water (because of the blue colour).

Well, yes. The natural heavens of our atmosphere are included in the greater definition of "heaven." I'll admit the term is vague as appears in Genesis.

(Shamayim) Heaven can mean:

The sky and atmosphere of earth.
The spiritual dominion of the throne of God.
The immediate visible heavens, including the sun, moon, solar system planets, and near stars.
The holistic expanse of the universe --all of empirical reality on the physical plain --period.
The holistic expanse of all creation, on every dimension and plane. "spirit realm", physical realm, and if there be anything else...

So, again. It is vague, and context can only go so far in this particular case.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This says in the beginning God created the heavens --but doesn't elaborate on the chronological timing between the "heavens" (If one assumes the extreme level of the definition) and the formation of the earth itself, which by logic would have to be made after the "space" in which it is both contained and fixed to begin with. The Bible does say explicitly that in the beginning the Earth was void and without form. There is no definitive insight as to whether or not this formless void was left to itself for an unknown duration of time, or if that was just a passing detail in the first few moments. It would seem superfluous to make mention of the formless void if it was only so for less than a 24 hour day in the initial moments of creation. The Bible also explicitly states that the sun and the moon were formed simultaneously with the earth.

Also, it is worthy to note that in the beginning, there was a light present before the sun itself:

"And God said, let there be light. And it was. And He saw that it was good."

The sun is made after the light. When you consider the notion of creation, the things contained in the Bible which defy the "natural order" such as walking on water, or burning bushes which do not consume, rods turning into serpents, the parting of the sea... Talking donkeys, virgin births, Resurrections and the sun staying still for Joshua... These things are by definition miracles. Creation itself is a "miracle" If we suppose for hypothetical purposes that God has the power to create the universe without worrying about the 6,000 years ago detail, then we should not have any problem believing he can set the elements in motion without "waiting around"...

It's like... Have you ever bought a house phone before? You know how you have to plug it in and let it charge for 28942389473 hours before you are supposed to use it for the first time? That is like the argument in which you say that if the stars are X million light years away, we should not have been able to see them yet if in fact they were created within the last 6,000 years.

But, what if God set everything in active motion? What if he had everything preset.. pre-charged? Is there any basis for this or am I really getting desperate here?

The Earth itself, under a 6 day, 6,000 year old creation would by logic have been pre-aged and created in a "mature" state. How else could it host life? The same logic applies to the cosmos. In the Bible, when God created Adam, and later Eve... Adam and Eve were never in the womb. They were never infants. They were never weened. They were never raised from childhood. They were created --not "born" in a pre-aged mature state.

To my knowledge, we have never actually conclusively observed a star being born. If a star HAS been born in the history of earth, fantastic. That star is being born, and it's natural light will take X light years to reach us. The star was born The "booster pack" start-up universe --none of the heavenly hosts: the planets, stars, moon, debris... None of it was "born" It was "created" in an advanced state. Things that have come into existence since the creation are expansion. They are not of the origin.

Touching on what you mentioned about the ancients believing the sky was a sort of floating sea.... The Genesis account of creation speaks of a "firmament" in the midst of the heavens. This firmament is said to be a dome-like concentration of water. The Bible says that the firmament was removed when God flooded the earth in the days of Noah. I believe waters from that flood also came from the fountains of the deep" in addition to the collapse of the firmament. Consequently, this is one of the main question marks one has when considering the reliability of radiometric dating techniques, because the existence of such a firmament would render the paradigm of Uniformitarianism useless in this debate. The presence of such a firmament would surely affect the C-14 levels in the pre-flood atmosphere for instance; further complicating the fact that under the hypothesis-testing of a 6,000 year old world by means of radiometric dating would be skewed because a 6,000 year old world is simply not old enough to reach the state of equilibrium, much less with the firmament complications... possibly even ozone issues. (I admit I am not sure how the state of the ozone might affect radiometrics if at all)

I sincerely hope this answers you sufficiently.
 
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Well, yes. The natural heavens of our atmosphere are included in the greater definition of "heaven." I'll admit the term is vague as appears in Genesis.

(Shamayim) Heaven can mean:

The sky and atmosphere or earth.
The spiritual dominion of the throne of God.
The immediate visible heavens, including the sun, moon, solar system planets, and near stars.
The holistic expanse of the universe --all of empirical reality on the physical plain --period.
The holistic expanse of all creation, on every dimension and plane. "spirit realm", physical realm, and if there be anything else...

So, again. It is vague, and context can only go so far in this particular case.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This says in the beginning God created the heavens --but doesn't elaborate on the chronological timing between the "heavens" (If one assumes the extreme level of the definition) and the formation of the earth itself, which by logic would have to be made after the "space" in which it is both contained and fixed to begin with. The Bible does say explicitly that in the beginning the Earth was void and without form. There is no definitive insight as to whether or not this formless void was left to itself for an unknown duration of time, or if that was just a passing detail in the first few moments. It would seem superfluous to make mention of the formless void if it was only so for less than a 24 hour day in the initial moments of creation. The Bible also explicitly states that the sun and the moon were formed simultaneously with the earth.

Also, it is worthy to note that in the beginning, there was a light present before the sun itself:

"And God said, let there be light. And it was. And He saw that it was good."

The sun is made after the light. When you consider the notion of creation, the things contained in the Bible which defy the "natural order" such as walking on water, or burning bushes which do not consume, rods turning into serpents, the parting of the sea... Talking donkeys, virgin births, Resurrections and the sun staying still for Joshua... These things are by definition miracles. Creation itself is a "miracle" If we suppose for hypothetical purposes that God has the power to create the universe without worrying about the 6,000 years ago detail, then we should not have any problem believing he can set the elements in motion without "waiting around"...

It's like... Have you ever bought a house phone before? You know how you have to plug it in and let it charge for 28942389473 hours before you are supposed to use it for the first time? That is like the argument in which you say that if the stars are X million light years away, we should not have been able to see them yet if in fact they were created within the last 6,000 years.

But, what if God set everything in active motion? What if he had everything preset.. pre-charged? Is there any basis for this or am I really getting desperate here?

The Earth itself, under a 6 day, 6,000 year old creation would by logic have been pre-aged and created in a "mature" state. How else could it host life? The same logic applies to the cosmos. In the Bible, when God created Adam, and later Eve... Adam and Eve were never in the womb. They were never infants. They were never weened. They were never raised from childhood. They were created --not "born" in a pre-aged mature state.

To my knowledge, we have never actually conclusively observed a star being born. If a star HAS been born in the history of earth, fantastic. That star is being born, and it's natural light will take X light years to reach us. The star was born The "booster pack" start-up universe --none of the heavenly hosts: the planets, stars, moon, debris... None of it was "born" It was "created" in an advanced state. Things that have come into existence since the creation are expansion. They are not of the origin.

Touching on what you mentioned about the ancients believing the sky was a sort of floating sea.... The Genesis account of creation speaks of a "firmament" in the midst of the heavens. This firmament is said to be a dome-like concentration of water. The Bible says that the firmament was removed when God flooded the earth in the days of Noah. I believe waters from that flood also came from the fountains of the deep" in addition to the collapse of the firmament. Consequently, this is one of the main question marks one has when considering the reliability of radiometric dating techniques, because the existence of such a firmament would render the paradigm of Uniformitarianism useless in this debate. The presence of such a firmament would surely affect the C-14 levels in the pre-flood atmosphere for instance; further complicating the fact that under the hypothesis-testing of a 6,000 year old world by means of radiometric dating would be skewed because a 6,000 year old world is simply not old enough to reach the state of equilibrium, much less with the firmament complications... possibly even ozone issues. (I admit I am not sure how the state of the ozone might affect radiometrics if at all)

I sincerely hope this answers you sufficiently.

You are basically making the argument for the matrix. Under your position, I could likewise say that God might just be a human being hooked to an experience-machine tricked into believing she is the creator of Heaven and Earth. I prefer not to make such unfalsifiable claims. It is a cop out, and means nothing in reasoned debate. Maybe Shadow the Hedgehog is God. :yes
 
You are basically making the argument for the matrix. Under your position, I could likewise say that God might just be a human being hooked to an experience-machine tricked into believing she is the creator of Heaven and Earth. I prefer not to make such unfalsifiable claims. It is a cop out, and means nothing in reasoned debate. Maybe Shadow the Hedgehog is God. :yes

its sonic the hedge hog.

is Man able to create something from nothing yet?
 
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