7000 Years is Not Enough

[Paul Timothy]

When I say I treat people as saying exactly what they mean, that includes addressing what exactly what they mean.

Your habit has shown differently. I don't think I've yet to see you actually address specifically what people say, much less what they mean.

For instance. I say Rev 11:8 & 17:13 simply say that great whore Babylon is that great city that is spiritually Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. This is simple repetition of two verses of Scripture taken together. The conclusion I make therefore is obvious: That great city called Babylon the Great must be Jerusalem.

Why in the world should these two verses be used together?
The two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem... but where does that equate to the Whore is Jerusalem?

Your only response is to disagree without explaining why, and then just claim I am adding or taking away from the words of God. What you show is, that if anyone does not agree with you, then you automatically say they do not agree with God and are corrupting His words.

Have I been asked specific questions?
I do not recall saying that if you disagree with me then you are disagreeing with God.
I am asking questions and not going down blind paths.

This is an example of not bothering to address what they mean, but only making an empty charge based upon you not agreeing with them, nor bothering to explain why.

If you want an explanation... ask me specific questions.

You are not someone who seriously disputes things about the Bible, but are only someone that either agrees or disagrees with someone according to your own thinking. If you agree, you pat them on the back. If you disagree, you make empty charges and mockery of what they say.

I don't recall being asked a specific question. A question that is not a leading question... because those are not really honest, are they?

And frankly, I don't think I've even seen you agree with anyone at all.

That is correct. I have not seen anyone who thinks the same as I do.
So that would lead me to think I am on to something.
Who in the past has ever been able to make sense out of Revelation? Not any so far.
So why can God not be opening the blessings He promised to show His people visions and dreams.
Or I might be wrong.
But no one has proven me wrong yet... but then again no one has asked me questions detailed enough for me to prove my points.

I'm taking the time to explain these things to you, with hopes you will begin to at least say why you disagree with someone, by addressing any specific point we make, and showing how it is in error.

You are not actually explaining anything to me. You are presenting your views that I find flawed.
No offense to you or anyone else... but I don't see anyone's views as complete enough to fit all the available references in Revelation.

Who knows, you may succeed, and I will be thanking you for the correction.

Who knows.
So ask some simple and direct questions to points you might be open to a different opinion on.
Trust me my answers will not be the same as others.
They might sound the same on the surface... but ask more detailed questions to get deeper understandings.

I will be honest with you. And will you actually listen with an open heart? Not open like "empty headed" but open as "willing to give another perspective a chance"?

 

[Paul Timothy]

RBDERRICK

I am being very honest that I would love to answer any questions you might have.
You are one of the only people on this site that has actually shown any sign of interest in what I think.
I have been asking questions on this site and while I get answers(sometimes) no one asks me honestly any good questions.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Sounds like your calling John a lier. To hats what it sounds like.

John saw these gentiles who will occupy Jerusalem for 42months.And there are two men who speak the word fire to destroy their enemies.

Oh, so you're not talking about what I was saying in Rev 9. It's a different subject in Rev 11.

Rev 11 isn't even about what John saw, but what John was given to do and measure the temple of God, the altar, and the worshippers therein. It's also about what John heard God say He would two, and write that down also.

By measuring the worshippers as well as the temple and altar, then this is not a temple made with hands of men, but is the temple and body of Christ on earth, being spiritually measured in pure hearted righteousness.

The earth is now the court outside the temple of God today. The nations still treading upon it under their own rule.

The Nt doesn't teach translations of Ethnos into Gentiles anymore, unless there is a clear teaching being made between Gentiles and Jews. The correct doctrinal translation is that the nations shall tread the court, which includes any national Jews, Greeks, Romans, Germans, Britians, etc...

Today there are only two kinds of nations on earth: the unbelieving uncircumcised nations of men, and the holy nation of the temple and body of Christ, that is now circumcised inwardly by the Spirit.

Outer circumcision means nothing anymore in the covenant, promise, blessing, and people of God, as well as national birth and heritage after the flesh.

Daniel wrote about the same army occupying Israel.

An army occupying the land of Judea round about Armageddon is different from the outside court of earth, that is still trodden by nations of men under their own rule.

Theres no refuting these things.

I give a better sense of the reading, than Gentiles occupying Jerusalem and the court of some temple made with hands of corrupt religious leaders.

And if the last false apostle and antichrist has a temple made with corrupt hands to sit in, then it certainly won't be God's temple on earth.

The only new temple of God made with hands on earth, will be the Lord's millennial temple made by Himself and others coming from afar. His throne will be within for His glory to sit in during His Millennium rule over all nations.

That temple and pattern may be the one seen opened in heaven after the seventh angel sounds at the end of Rev 11, when the nations are inherited by the Lord, and the kingdoms and people of the world will become nations and subjects.

Perhaps the ark of the covenant will be the lost one as a classic ancient piece situated in the Lord's house on earth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But you insist John couldn't know or understand the things he was seeing.

More misreading. You still don't show where I suggest it. I say John understood perfectly what he saw in Rev 11, and described it perfectly as God guided him too.

You still miss the main point, that those who say he was trying to describe future machinery in ignorant and symbolic ancient terms are wrong. The main reason being, that God is the one doing the describing through John, who is the ready pen in His hand. John understands what he is seeing, and God is guiding his description of it to the degree that God wants for sake of Scriptural prophecy.

But, so far as prophets and apostles not knowing exactly all that God is giving them to wright, Peter says the prophets did not understand all that God gave them to speak and write, so that they enquired and searched into the things they prophesied about the grace and gospel to come, as well as the sufferings of Christ before His glory that follows. Read Peter's 1st epistle and see for yourself.

Peter also acknowledged Paul was writing some Scriptures of God, that Peter himself found hard to understand, but Peter didn't just throw up his hands and go on to change some scriptures Paul wrote, in order to make them more to his liking. Peter continued to read them by the Spirit to be guided into the truth of Pauline Scripture, even as we must. As James said, they were men of like passions just as we, and they needed read the Scriptures of other prophets and apostles through faith to understand them, just like us.

I believe not only did John see these things

True. He did see the things in Rev 9. He also did what he was told to do in Rev 11.

,he wrote of them as well because I read what he wrote.

Me too. I read what he saw in Rev 9, and what he was told to do in Rev 11. I also read many things he was shown by the Lord and an angel in other places. It's called reading the Bible.

Simple as that.

Right. Simple as reading the words and repeating what is written.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Oh, so you're not talking about what I was saying in Rev 9. It's a different subject in Rev 11.

Rev 11 isn't even about what John saw, but what John was given to do and measure the temple of God, the altar, and the worshippers therein. It's also about what John heard God say He would two, and write that down also.

By measuring the worshippers as well as the temple and altar, then this is not a temple made with hands of men, but is the temple and body of Christ on earth, being spiritually measured in pure hearted righteousness.

The earth is now the court outside the temple of God today. The nations still treading upon it under their own rule.

The Nt doesn't teach translations of Ethnos into Gentiles anymore, unless there is a clear teaching being made between Gentiles and Jews. The correct doctrinal translation is that the nations shall tread the court, which includes any national Jews, Greeks, Romans, Germans, Britians, etc...

Today there are only two kinds of nations on earth: the unbelieving uncircumcised nations of men, and the holy nation of the temple and body of Christ, that is now circumcised inwardly by the Spirit.

Outer circumcision means nothing anymore in the covenant, promise, blessing, and people of God, as well as national birth and heritage after the flesh.



An army occupying the land of Judea round about Armageddon is different from the outside court of earth, that is still trodden by nations of men under their own rule.


I give a better sense of the reading, than Gentiles occupying Jerusalem and the court of some temple made with hands of corrupt religious leaders.

And if the last false apostle and antichrist has a temple made with corrupt hands to sit in, then it certainly won't be God's temple on earth.

The only new temple of God made with hands on earth, will be the Lord's millennial temple made by Himself and others coming from afar. His throne will be within for His glory to sit in during His Millennium rule over all nations.

That temple and pattern may be the one seen opened in heaven after the seventh angel sounds at the end of Rev 11, when the nations are inherited by the Lord, and the kingdoms and people of the world will become nations and subjects.

Perhaps the ark of the covenant will be the lost one as a classic ancient piece situated in the Lord's house on earth.

John is not talking about the gentiles treading the earth under foot.
He is talking about Jerusalem.

Revelation 11
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Daniel 11:31
His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

More misreading. You still don't show where I suggest it. I say John understood perfectly what he saw in Rev 11, and described it perfectly as God guided him too.

You still miss the main point, that those who say he was trying to describe future machinery in ignorant and symbolic ancient terms are wrong. The main reason being, that God is the one doing the describing through John, who is the ready pen in His hand. John understands what he is seeing, and God is guiding his description of it to the degree that God wants for sake of Scriptural prophecy.

But, so far as prophets and apostles not knowing exactly all that God is giving them to wright, Peter says the prophets did not understand all that God gave them to speak and write, so that they enquired and searched into the things they prophesied about the grace and gospel to come, as well as the sufferings of Christ before His glory that follows. Read Peter's 1st epistle and see for yourself.

Peter also acknowledged Paul was writing some Scriptures of God, that Peter himself found hard to understand, but Peter didn't just throw up his hands and go on to change some scriptures Paul wrote, in order to make them more to his liking. Peter continued to read them by the Spirit to be guided into the truth of Pauline Scripture, even as we must. As James said, they were men of like passions just as we, and they needed read the Scriptures of other prophets and apostles through faith to understand them, just like us.


True. He did see the things in Rev 9. He also did what he was told to do in Rev 11.


Me too. I read what he saw in Rev 9, and what he was told to do in Rev 11. I also read many things he was shown by the Lord and an angel in other places. It's called reading the Bible.


Right. Simple as reading the words and repeating what is written.

I hope you understand that John is saying the gentiles will be occupying Jerusalem with two witnesses.

Revelation 11
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


John did not change the subject from the gentiles to the two witnesses.He is speaking of the same group occupying Jerusalem together for 42 months.1260 days.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Why in the world should these two verses be used together?

Now this is much better. Now you are making fair challenges. I like it, because if I don't have an honest response, then I can be corrected, and the teaching can be made more perfect. That's really all I care about. I don't have a personal horse in this race, that I'm betting on and am willing to cheat to win.

And so:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This is the first mention of the great city in Revelation.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This is another mention of the great city, that is now that great city, because it is already mentioned first in Rev 11.

And so by simple rules of grammar and comprehension in a single book, the great city that is spiritually Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified, is that great city, that is the woman seen with the name Mystery Babylon the Great Mother of harlots, also called the great whore.

The great city of course being Jerusalem, because that is where on earth the Lord was crucified.

Now, in order to disprove this, then it must be shown there are two different great cities spoken of by God in the book of Revelation. And that's true; however, the only other great city than that Babylon, and where the Lord was crucified, is New Jerusalem. That great city is of course not that great whore, nor this Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified.

So, you must now show any reasonable argument, that the great city of Rev 11 is different from that of Rev 14 & 16-18. If you can do that by plain words of Scripture, other than just saying so because you want to, then I can be corrected.

This is how prophecy of Scripture is reasonably disputed by those seeking to be faithful to the words of God as written. It's what those mighty in the Scriptures did all the time in the days of the apostles, including Stephen, Apollos, Paul, etc...

 

[RBDERRICK]

I do not recall saying that if you disagree with me then you are disagreeing with God.

In effect yes. If you simply disagree with someone without showing why, and then accuse them of adding to or taking from the words of God, then you are saying disagreeing with you alone is proof of corrupting God's words.

I don't recall being asked a specific question. A question that is not a leading question... because those are not really honest, are they?

You say leading, I say honest. Once again, even in this case, you can show how the question is leading, rather than sincere and honest. Jesus did so with the Pharisees many times, when they tried to catch Him in His words.

That is correct. I have not seen anyone who thinks the same as I do.

To a large degree me too. But I don't disagree with others ever, without at least showing why.

Who in the past has ever been able to make sense out of Revelation? Not any so far.

Acknowledging you can't has several problems here. You then judge npo one can. And you also continue to disagree without cause what others say is sense of Revelation. And yet, you admit you can';t make sense of it.

If that were truly the case with you, and you were honest about wanting to learn to do so, you would be more open to others that you do not agree with. You would at least give them a fair hearing and make honest challenges. You did so above, and so you can again.

So why can God not be opening the blessings He promised to show His people visions and dreams.

I don't know anyone saying He can't or doesn't. In fact He promises He will to them honestly and humbly guided by the spirit of truth into all truth of His word.

But no one has proven me wrong yet...

No one I've seen has been given a fair hearing by you yet. All you prove is you refuse to be corrected yet.

No offense to you or anyone else... but I don't see anyone's views as complete enough to fit all the available references in Revelation.

And yet you say you can't make sense of it, and so how are you to judge what makes sense of it or not. Your words of not making sense of it are obviously lips only.

Trust me my answers will not be the same as others.

Not looking for that. I only look for people addressing specific points made with proof of Scripture.

I've given you the chance and challenge to state your case about why the great city named Babylon in Revelation, cannot be the great city Jerusalem in Revelation. I'll see how you handle it.

I will be honest with you. And will you actually listen with an open heart? Not open like "empty headed" but open as "willing to give another perspective a chance"?

As I said. I look forward to your response to the above challenge.

Show me in plain words of Revelation, how the great city named Babylon cannot be the great city Jerusalem.

Believe me, I am entirely open to sound argument of plain words. If you can correct me, then also see I will thank you for it, and adjust the teaching of prophecy accordingly.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Challenge accepted RBDERRICK .

Lets see using Rev 17+18 only as that is the only place Babylon the Great is described.
Sorry that I will have to ask a lot of questions... but because I don't believe the Whore is Jerusalem... I don't have answers to questions that need answers for Jerusalem to be the Whore.

Rev 17:1... Whore sits on many waters... is Jerusalem multicultural with every nation of the earth represented. Somewhat but not as much as others.
Rev 17:2... Has Jerusalem committed fornication with the Kings of the earth... I have heard nothing in any news source that Jerusalem has done this. I have had other places shown to have fornicated with the kings of the earth though.
Rev 17:3... I don't see a Scarlet Beast that Jerusalem is beholden to(in direct partnership with) but that also hates Jerusalem. Does the US play this role in your scheme?
Rev 17:4... Purple and Scarlet, gold, jewels would indicate riches, power or prestige... I don't see this with Jerusalem on the world stage.
Rev 17:4... Where is the cup filled with the filthiness of Jerusalem's fornication? How much is Jerusalem responsible for the moral decay of the world?
Rev 17:5... Where is there any evidence that Jerusalem is the greatest, mama of whores on earth. How much sexual depravity has Jerusalem been responsible for over the ages?
Rev 17:6... Have you ever been drunk before... the whore is visibly drunk... that indicates recent drinking. In recent memory how much blood has been spilled by Jerusalem?
Rev 17:7-14... Who is the Beast supposed to be if Jerusalem is the Whore? I see no nation or "system" that matches any of the descriptions of the Beast.
Rev 17:18... In what way does Jerusalem reign over the Kings of the earth? I see treaty negotiations and trade happening... but Jerusalem does not issue commands and the world obeys.

Rev 18:3... What sexual acts have the nations(not the kings) done with Jerusalem?
Rev 18:3... The merchants of the earth have not gotten rich off of Jerusalem's shopping. What % of the world market is Jerusalem?
Rev 18:7... I don't see Jerusalem glorifying herself nor do I see Jerusalem having lived deliciously. If you think Jerusalem has been a paradise in the recent past... ask a Jew their opinion.
Rev 18:7... when have you ever heard a Jewish person say "I will see no sorrow". It is a meme that Jews are pessimistic about their lot in life.
Rev 18:9... Kings of the earth having sexual activity with Jerusalem again... I have heard nothing of this in the news. And yet I have heard of sexual influence peddling that happens in other nations.
Rev 18:11... How much does Jerusalem buy from all the merchants of the earth?... Only a large market share county would have the merchants of the world weeping because "NO MAN BUYS THEIR MERCHANDISE ANYMORE"... Sp obviously the Whore is a HUGE consumer of world goods.
Rev 18:12-15... Not specific products but a huge catalog of products are sold to the Whore. And if you sell to the Whore you are not selling to another market by comparison.
Rev 18:15... Merchants of this long list of products were made rich by the Whore. What merchant companies has Jerusalem made rich?
Rev 18:21... Babylon will never be found again. Jerusalem will be the heart of the Millennial Kingdom. Rev 20:9.

Now if Jerusalem is the Whore... all of the above must fit with Jerusalem.
This is the list I came up with in 5-10 minutes this morning... Do I have to add to the list? I have tried to cover everything.
I may have missed a point or two and we can go over the missing points if you want.
You asked for reasons why Jerusalem is NOT the Whore.
How did I do with your challenge?

 

[Paul Timothy]

In effect yes. If you simply disagree with someone without showing why, and then accuse them of adding to or taking from the words of God, then you are saying disagreeing with you alone is proof of corrupting God's words.

When I disagree with someone... do they ask followup questions or do they just get defensive? It may be a natural response to a challenge... and then I respond to their response.

You say leading, I say honest. Once again, even in this case, you can show how the question is leading, rather than sincere and honest. Jesus did so with the Pharisees many times, when they tried to catch Him in His words.

The questions I have been asked do not feel honest to me. They feel like entrapment.

To a large degree me too. But I don't disagree with others ever, without at least showing why.


Acknowledging you can't has several problems here. You then judge npo one can. And you also continue to disagree without cause what others say is sense of Revelation. And yet, you admit you can';t make sense of it.

When did I say I can't? You misunderstand and you don't ask for clarification.

If that were truly the case with you, and you were honest about wanting to learn to do so, you would be more open to others that you do not agree with. You would at least give them a fair hearing and make honest challenges. You did so above, and so you can again.


I don't know anyone saying He can't or doesn't. In fact He promises He will to them honestly and humbly guided by the spirit of truth into all truth of His word.


No one I've seen has been given a fair hearing by you yet. All you prove is you refuse to be corrected yet.

No one has asked my opinion yet.

And yet you say you can't make sense of it, and so how are you to judge what makes sense of it or not. Your words of not making sense of it are obviously lips only.

When did I say that? You arrived putting words in my mouth.

Not looking for that. I only look for people addressing specific points made with proof of Scripture.

I've given you the chance and challenge to state your case about why the great city named Babylon in Revelation, cannot be the great city Jerusalem in Revelation. I'll see how you handle it.


As I said. I look forward to your response to the above challenge.

Enjoy.

Show me in plain words of Revelation, how the great city named Babylon cannot be the great city Jerusalem.

Done.

Believe me, I am entirely open to sound argument of plain words. If you can correct me, then also see I will thank you for it, and adjust the teaching of prophecy accordingly.

That will remain to be seen.

 

[RBDERRICK]

That is correct. I have not seen anyone who thinks the same as I do.

The problem with this is we aren't here to discuss philosophy. It's not how we think that matters, but what God says is true. I speak of Scripture only, not of my own mind.

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

This is why private interpretations should not be taught as Scripture itself. We can have all the personal thinking we want, but it ought not be taught as doctrine and prophecy of God, because we're not God, and just because we imagine something as true, does not make it true.

That's why you argue from your own mind and are not persuaded by quotes of Scripture, and if someone disagrees with you, you think they are defying God and His words.

To some degree or other many Christians make this error, I don't. I've learned the disciple of not imagining just because I believe something, that doesn't mean it is true. I always judge my thinking by Scripture, not the other way around.

Just because I don't immediately agree with someone, I don't then discount it, but I go to Scripture first to see if God agrees with it or not. I can be corrected by others, when they show me God says it's true.

But no one has proven me wrong yet...

That's because your mind is not guided by Scripture only, but also your own imagination, that Scripture does not always support.

The problem of living by our own faith, is when our own thinking is not corrected by God's word, and we are doing our own thing, assuming it's God's truth and will.

I am telling you this, because I like your spirit and willingness to stand by your own thinking, but you have learned to discipline and renew your mind with the words of Scripture.

You don't let God's words change your mind, and so you don't let others teaching God's words accurately change your thinking on certain matters.

Teaching is a discipline that requires honest with ourselves first, if we are going to be honest with others about teaching the truth, and not just teaching our own ideas that we personally like.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Paul Timothy]

The problem with this is we aren't here to discuss philosophy. It's not how we think that matters, but what God says is true. I speak of Scripture only, not of my own mind.

So you do not use your mind to understand Scripture?

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

This is why private interpretations should not be taught as Scripture itself. We can have all the personal thinking we want, but it ought not be taught as doctrine and prophecy of God, because we're not God, and just because we imagine something as true, does not make it true.

I never have. But if you say Jerusalem is the Whore... then you are teaching your private interpretation as what Scripture states. And now that you are proven wrong... now what?

That's why you argue from your own mind and are not persuaded by quotes of Scripture, and if someone disagrees with you, you think they are defying God and His words.

If your quotes from Scripture are taken out of context then the person taking things out of context is going against Scripture.

To some degree or other many Christians make this error, I don't. I've learned the disciple of not imagining just because I believe something, that doesn't mean it is true. I always judge my thinking by Scripture, not the other way around.

So you say everyone else is in error and you are the only pure one around.
But can you see when Scripture does not agree with you?

Just because I don't immediately agree with someone, I don't then discount it, but I go to Scripture first to see if God agrees with it or not. I can be corrected by others, when they show me God says it's true.

I don't ask you to immediately agree with me. But neither should I immediately agree with you.

That's because your mind is not guided by Scripture only, but also your own imagination, that Scripture does not always support.

Where do you get that insight? Do you know what I am thinking? So now you are claiming to read minds.

The problem of living by our own faith, is when our own thinking is not corrected by God's word, and we are doing our own thing, assuming it's God's truth and will.

I think you are projecting your own issues onto others with this statement.

I am telling you this, because I like your spirit and willingness to stand by your own thinking, but you have learned to discipline and renew your mind with the words of Scripture.

You challenged me to state why Jerusalem was not the Whore.
I gave almost every verse in Rev 17+18 to back my position.
Maybe ask me how I have come to my conclusions before stating that you know how I think.

You don't let God's words change your mind, and so you don't let others teaching God's words accurately change your thinking on certain matters.

Where are you getting your knowledge of what is in my head?
I can tell you that your source of this information is faulty.

Teaching is a discipline that requires honest with ourselves first, if we are going to be honest with others about teaching the truth, and not just teaching our own ideas that we personally like.

That is why I do not teach. Too many things get in the way. I prefer to debate.
I brought a lot of Biblical references to my side of the argument.
Pick one and let us discuss/debate/midrash this out.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So maybe I am the one being moved by the Holy Ghost and you are the one resisting the Lord.
or not.

 

[Paul Timothy]

RBDERRICK pick one of the following verses and state why Jerusalem is the Whore according to the Biblical reference.
I have included my thoughts and await your rebuttal.
I think with this many points of reference that I have proven my point to any reasonable person.
Now please show me the errors I have made or be the reasonable person and move on.

Rev 17:1... Whore sits on many waters... is Jerusalem multicultural with every nation of the earth represented. Somewhat but not as much as others.
Rev 17:2... Has Jerusalem committed fornication with the Kings of the earth... I have heard nothing in any news source that Jerusalem has done this. I have had other places shown to have fornicated with the kings of the earth though.
Rev 17:3... I don't see a Scarlet Beast that Jerusalem is beholden to(in direct partnership with) but that also hates Jerusalem. Does the US play this role in your scheme?
Rev 17:4... Purple and Scarlet, gold, jewels would indicate riches, power or prestige... I don't see this with Jerusalem on the world stage.
Rev 17:4... Where is the cup filled with the filthiness of Jerusalem's fornication? How much is Jerusalem responsible for the moral decay of the world?
Rev 17:5... Where is there any evidence that Jerusalem is the greatest, mama of whores on earth. How much sexual depravity has Jerusalem been responsible for over the ages?
Rev 17:6... Have you ever been drunk before... the whore is visibly drunk... that indicates recent drinking. In recent memory how much blood has been spilled by Jerusalem?
Rev 17:7-14... Who is the Beast supposed to be if Jerusalem is the Whore? I see no nation or "system" that matches any of the descriptions of the Beast.
Rev 17:18... In what way does Jerusalem reign over the Kings of the earth? I see treaty negotiations and trade happening... but Jerusalem does not issue commands and the world obeys.

Rev 18:3... What sexual acts have the nations(not the kings) done with Jerusalem?
Rev 18:3... The merchants of the earth have not gotten rich off of Jerusalem's shopping. What % of the world market is Jerusalem?
Rev 18:7... I don't see Jerusalem glorifying herself nor do I see Jerusalem having lived deliciously. If you think Jerusalem has been a paradise in the recent past... ask a Jew their opinion.
Rev 18:7... when have you ever heard a Jewish person say "I will see no sorrow". It is a meme that Jews are pessimistic about their lot in life.
Rev 18:9... Kings of the earth having sexual activity with Jerusalem again... I have heard nothing of this in the news. And yet I have heard of sexual influence peddling that happens in other nations.
Rev 18:11... How much does Jerusalem buy from all the merchants of the earth?... Only a large market share county would have the merchants of the world weeping because "NO MAN BUYS THEIR MERCHANDISE ANYMORE"... So obviously the Whore is a HUGE consumer of world goods.
Rev 18:12-15... Not specific products but a huge catalog of products are sold to the Whore. And if you sell to the Whore you are not selling to another market by comparison.
Rev 18:15... Merchants of this long list of products were made rich by the Whore. What merchant companies has Jerusalem made rich?
Rev 18:21... Babylon will never be found again. Jerusalem will be the heart of the Millennial Kingdom. Rev 20:9.

Now if Jerusalem is the Whore... all of the above must fit with Jerusalem.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

RBDERRICK pick one of the following verses and state why Jerusalem is the Whore according to the Biblical reference.
I have included my thoughts and await your rebuttal.
I think with this many points of reference that I have proven my point to any reasonable person.
Now please show me the errors I have made or be the reasonable person and move on.

Rev 17:1... Whore sits on many waters... is Jerusalem multicultural with every nation of the earth represented. Somewhat but not as much as others.
Rev 17:2... Has Jerusalem committed fornication with the Kings of the earth... I have heard nothing in any news source that Jerusalem has done this. I have had other places shown to have fornicated with the kings of the earth though.
Rev 17:3... I don't see a Scarlet Beast that Jerusalem is beholden to(in direct partnership with) but that also hates Jerusalem. Does the US play this role in your scheme?
Rev 17:4... Purple and Scarlet, gold, jewels would indicate riches, power or prestige... I don't see this with Jerusalem on the world stage.
Rev 17:4... Where is the cup filled with the filthiness of Jerusalem's fornication? How much is Jerusalem responsible for the moral decay of the world?
Rev 17:5... Where is there any evidence that Jerusalem is the greatest, mama of whores on earth. How much sexual depravity has Jerusalem been responsible for over the ages?
Rev 17:6... Have you ever been drunk before... the whore is visibly drunk... that indicates recent drinking. In recent memory how much blood has been spilled by Jerusalem?
Rev 17:7-14... Who is the Beast supposed to be if Jerusalem is the Whore? I see no nation or "system" that matches any of the descriptions of the Beast.
Rev 17:18... In what way does Jerusalem reign over the Kings of the earth? I see treaty negotiations and trade happening... but Jerusalem does not issue commands and the world obeys.

Rev 18:3... What sexual acts have the nations(not the kings) done with Jerusalem?
Rev 18:3... The merchants of the earth have not gotten rich off of Jerusalem's shopping. What % of the world market is Jerusalem?
Rev 18:7... I don't see Jerusalem glorifying herself nor do I see Jerusalem having lived deliciously. If you think Jerusalem has been a paradise in the recent past... ask a Jew their opinion.
Rev 18:7... when have you ever heard a Jewish person say "I will see no sorrow". It is a meme that Jews are pessimistic about their lot in life.
Rev 18:9... Kings of the earth having sexual activity with Jerusalem again... I have heard nothing of this in the news. And yet I have heard of sexual influence peddling that happens in other nations.
Rev 18:11... How much does Jerusalem buy from all the merchants of the earth?... Only a large market share county would have the merchants of the world weeping because "NO MAN BUYS THEIR MERCHANDISE ANYMORE"... So obviously the Whore is a HUGE consumer of world goods.
Rev 18:12-15... Not specific products but a huge catalog of products are sold to the Whore. And if you sell to the Whore you are not selling to another market by comparison.
Rev 18:15... Merchants of this long list of products were made rich by the Whore. What merchant companies has Jerusalem made rich?
Rev 18:21... Babylon will never be found again. Jerusalem will be the heart of the Millennial Kingdom. Rev 20:9.

Now if Jerusalem is the Whore... all of the above must fit with Jerusalem.

It fits the people who live in Israel today.Jerusalem is their capital where their government (they have chosen to replace God with) now resides.

 

[Paul Timothy]

It fits the people who live in Israel today.Jerusalem is their capital where their government (they have chosen to replace God with) now resides.

So which of the 18 points against your theory did you wish to contend over?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

So which of the 18 points against your theory did you wish to contend over?

I don't contend with any.They all fit Jerusalem and its country.
Maybe after the ten horns which hate the prostitute attacks and conquers Jerusalem you will figure it out.
They don't seem to be interested in conquering any other city.

Zech 14
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

You see any other city being attacked by the ten horns?

 

[Paul Timothy]

I don't contend with any.They all fit Jerusalem and its country.
Maybe after the ten horns which hate the prostitute attacks and conquers Jerusalem you will figure it out.
They don't seem to be interested in conquering any other city.

Zech 14
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

You see any other city being attacked by the ten horns?

Well as you have not defined what the 10 horns represent... you have not shown that Jerusalem is the target.
And yes I think another is the target of the 10 horns which are leaders but without being kings and are part of the Beast... another thing you haven't defined.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Well as you have not defined what the 10 horns represent... you have not shown that Jerusalem is the target.
And yes I think another is the target of the 10 horns which are leaders but without being kings and are part of the Beast... another thing you haven't defined.

I've just posted zechariah saying what city they attack on that day.
Revelation shows what city their target is.
Have you not read about it in revelation?

 

[Paul Timothy]

I've just posted zechariah saying what city they attack on that day.
Revelation shows what city their target is.
Have you not read about it in revelation?

So Zach is not Revelation.
Revelation does not show the target to be Jerusalem as I offered 18 references that dispute that.
I have never read in Revelation that Jerusalem is attacked by the 10 horns.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

So Zach is not Revelation.
Revelation does not show the target to be Jerusalem as I offered 18 references that dispute that.
I have never read in Revelation that Jerusalem is attacked by the 10 horns.

Just shows how much attention you pay to revelation.The beast that ascends out of the bottomless Pit and the ten horns hate the prostitute.

Revelation 17:16
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

The city the beast from the bottomless pit attacks the city where our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.




If you would only pay attention to revelation,you might learn from it.But you first need to pay attention to it or you will never learn anything .
This event where the beast from the bottomless pit attacks the occupants of Jerusalem is the same attack zechariah wrote about.



Zech 14
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

No other cities being attacked by the beast from the abiss on that day.If you wish to contend with these verses then post the verses you believe shows a different city being attacked on that day.
Let's see what you got.