A message for all Sabbath breakers.....Owned!!

[SputnikBoy]

soma

The early church met on the first day of the week under the new covenant in honor of the Jesus coming out of the grave. This is what the bible teaches us, and not only that but the bible also teaches us that Jesus is the sabbath, when we place our faith in him all the work is done and we rest.

Sputnik: Excuse me but where in the scriptures does it say that Sunday (or the 1st-day) was to become the new day for worship ...where? It simply says that 'they met' AND, not on just the 1st-day but EVERY day (Acts 2:46). Also, where in the scriptures does it tell us that 'Jesus is our Sabbath'? Please don't present such things as if they are truths. This is very misleading and does little for your credibility.

Henry: I remember when you were not a christian and you truste me then. Listen to me now, the seventh day doctrine of the sabbath is legalism made from twisting verses around it.

Sputnik: So, Jesus, the disciples and Paul were 'legalists' according to this definition ...right? Question to anyone: Is obedience to God 'legalism'?

Henry: Our salvation is not based on a day we meet, and no seventh day adventest even keeps that sabbath laws anyways, I find it a terrible bit of hyprocy on their parts, to comdemn others for not doing what they do not do anyways.

Sputnik: I'd like to believe that, not just Adventists but Christians of ALL denomonations, even atheists, would adhere to the principles of the Ten Commandments whether our salvation is based on them or not. The very laws of our land are based on those commandments. As for Adventists not keeping the Sabbath laws, that's an individual thing. We ARE living in the year 2005, and our ideas, our culture, are not and cannot be those of the ancients. Whenever other Christians criticize the fact that SDAs don't keep the Sabbath to the letter of the law, it is THEY (the non-Adventist) who are being 'legalistic'. I would think that the majority of SDAs WOULD keep the 4th-commandment pretty well anyway. Without the extra 'ordinances' that were thrown in for the Israelites it IS pretty straight forward. Read it for yourself (Exodus 20:8-11).

Henry: Please let me say this in love, Ellen White was a false prophet and you need to study out side the context of her teachings for truth.

Sputnik: She needs to have made the claim that she WAS a prophet before she can be condemned as a 'false prophet'. Please direct me to where she made this claim, Henry.

Henry: By the way, have you checked out http://www.ntrf.org here is a great site with some really needed truths.

Sputnik: Please don't do this Henry, especially with such relish. Often the 'truths' are more misguided than those they are intending to refute. These sites are often instigated by disgruntled ex-SDAs whose one aim in life is to 'get back' at the church for whatever reasons soured them in the first place. They become obsessed. The criteria for anything we're discussing here on this thread is simple ...is it scriptural or isn't it? If Ellen White made some claim, some prophesy, whatever, that doesn't tally with the scriptures, then I'll concede to the fact that she was, after all, a mere mortal. I say that with 'tongue-in'cheek' since I ALREADY believe that she was a mere mortal.

 

[Jay T]

By fulfilling the law, Jesus made Himself at least equal to it, and then by dying for sinful man, He made Himself greater than the law. Those of us who are in Christ are not under a death sentence, we are under grace.

I believe that Grace is of no value, if one persisits in committing sin....
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Which means to me, since we are under grace, we shall not commit sin, because it no longer dominates us.
And sin is, breaking God's 10 commandments (1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7).

6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
I believe that grace, is stronger than the power of sin, therefore grace, can keep us from breaking any one of God's Law.

AND....Romans 1:5 backs up, what I believe...... Romans 1:5 "By whom we have received grace.....for obedience ....to the faith among all nations, for his name"

 

[Heidi]

1 John, 4:4, "the one in you is greater than the one in the world."

Phil. 1:6, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion." It doesn't appear that you have enough faith in God's ability to change us, Jay T. "Those in Christ Jesus are a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come." "Ye of little faith."

 

[Jay T]

1 John, 4:4, "the one in you is greater than the one in the world."

Phil. 1:6, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion." It doesn't appear that you have enough faith in God's ability to change us, Jay T. "Those in Christ Jesus are a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come." "Ye of little faith."

I believe.... Men are lost because they have committed sin, which is breaking God's commandments (1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7).

Christ gives us grace, to keep God's commandments (Romans 1:5), therfore not committing sin anymore (1 John 3:9).

The change is, God working His will in us to do Righteous works, which we as human beings cannot do, in our own strenght.

So scripture can be fulfilled......Romans "10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".

 

[Scott]

I believe that Grace is of no value, if one persisits in committing sin....

Why would grace promote someone to persist on in committing sin. Thats evidence that one does not know Christ (1 John 3:6).

And sin is, breaking God's 10 commandments

Keep the Sabbath day Holy. SDA's have been asked this numerous times, are we to live according to our sin nature the other 6?! Then comes the regulations of the day, and the definition of the day. Are you keeping the proper hours? How far are you traveling to go to church? Are you letting your pastor know he's sinning because he's working on the Sabbath?! Or is this the part where you pick and choose which ones you want to apply to your life?!

Hebrews 4:7
"Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when
a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.†"

 

[Heidi]

1 John, 4:4, "the one in you is greater than the one in the world."

Phil. 1:6, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion." It doesn't appear that you have enough faith in God's ability to change us, Jay T. "Those in Christ Jesus are a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come." "Ye of little faith."

I believe.... Men are lost because they have committed sin, which is breaking God's commandments (1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7).

Christ gives us grace, to keep God's commandments (Romans 1:5), therfore not committing sin anymore (1 John 3:9).

The change is, God working His will in us to do Righteous works, which we as human beings cannot do, in our own strenght.

So scripture can be fulfilled......Romans "10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".

So how can one continue to commit sin if he has the Holy Spirit in him? :o If he does continue to commit sin, then how are you saying that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil? Therefore, the only interpretation that does not contradict the bible is that one who continues to commit sin simply cannot have the Holy Spirit in him and is not born again. Otherwise, you are saying that the devil is stronger than the Holy Spirit. ;-)

 

[sadiebelle]

So which is it for you, Saidebelle? Is it abolished and destroyed for you? If so, you are no longer under it, but under grace. If so, you are no longer in bondage to it's terrible rule. It is no longer the impossible burden.

But if it hasn't been abolished and destroyed for you, Saidebelle, then I would invite you here and now to accept Christ, for -- unlike the Law of Moses -- His yoke is easy and his burden is light!

Bless you, my sister

I think you have the wrong idea about me. :D I fought the sabbath keepers and the legalists over on my other stomping grounds on Christianity.com
Here's the thing:
While we are not under the law, nor yoked to it (we are yoked with Christ) the law is still valuable. Anyone who says otherwise is selling an incomplete gospel. There was never two forms of salvation: One for the OT Saints and one for NT Saints. It has always been about Faith.

I have several NT verses for you but we'll start with one:

1 John 1:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 ¶ Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.

Again, I am not advocating legalism but a respect and reverence for the law.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Hi All,

If we can define what the first covenant was we will know what was actually done away and replaced.

11: If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13: For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14: For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15: And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16: Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17: For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18: For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. Heb. 7:11-18

It is clear SOMETHING WAS DISANNULED. That means it is no longer binding. Most Bible readers know that. The problem arises when the modern day Torah teachers proclaim Hebrews 7:18 refers only to the Levitical priesthood with its sacrifices. We will prove the error of that in this study and show when the writer of Hebrews speaks of the FIRST COVENANT he means the entire package of the Mosaic law.

1: Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2: A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3: For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4: For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb. 8:1-8

Here the writer first uses the phrase FIRST COVENANT in verse 7. He is of course refering to the same Covenant in chapter 7:18 that was DISANNULED. It obviously spoke of the sacrifices and offerings. Yet we will see that this same Covenant also contained the commands and judgements YAH gave to Israel.

Here is the prophetic word that revealed a NEW COVENANT was going to be revealed.

9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb. 8:9-13

The writer to the Hebrews indicates that the New REPLACES the old. He teaches them the old is now OBSOLETE. It is decaying and vanishing away. When the Writer said this to the Hebrews the New had been in effect for several decades. Yet because of the great reverence the Jewish people had come to know for the law of Moses they still were living in it along with what they had now experienced in Yashua.

The temple either had been or was about to be destroyed by the Roman occupiers. The Messiah was now putting a strong emphasis on the superiority of the New contrasted to the old. Some of them would soon be scattered among Gentile nations and would need to be assured they did not need the elements of the FIRST COVENANT which was made with the NATION OF ISRAEL. Part 1

 

[Michael A Disciple]

The writer to the Hebrews reminded them the FIRST COVENANT was vanishing away. Our goal in this study is to pinpoint what he is referring to.
In chapter 9 we will find the answer.

1: Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2: For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3: And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4: Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5: And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6: Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7: But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11: But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13: For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16: For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17: For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:1-17

The Writer speaks in these verses about the Tabernacle work of the Levites. In verses 1 and 15 this is called the FIRST COVENANT or testament. If we were to stop right here we would agree that only the Levite priesthood is being discussed. But as we proceed the truth will become CRYSTAL CLEAR.

18: Whereupon neither the FIRST TESTAMENT was dedicated without blood.
19: For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20: Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Heb. 9:18-20

Friends have you ever looked back to what the Writer of Hebrews is talking about? Here we will be able to IDENTIFY what he means by the FIRST COVENANT! It was enjoined to the Children of Israel by the sprikling of blood.

Come with me to the place all these things occured.

1: And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.
2: And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.
3: And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
4: And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
5: And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
6: And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7: And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8: And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. Exodus 24:1-8

Moses communed with YAH and brought the word from him to the people. It says in verse 3 he brought his word and his judgements. To get the full impact we must realize what word and judgements the people were BEING ENJOINED TO!

The context is this. 4 chapters earlier in Exodus chapter 19 YAH informs Moses he has willed to take Israel for a people and that they will be a holy people to him. Moses gives this message to the people and they agree to these words.

Then starting in Exodus 20 verse 1 the words of the FIRST COVENANT. Upon reading the entire chapter we see it contains first of all THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. Verse 1-17.

1: And God spake all these words, saying,
2: I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.
16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
18: And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19: And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20: And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21: And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22: And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23: Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24: An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
25: And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
26: Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon. Ex. 20:1-26

Notice in verse 24 he refers to the fact there will be animal sacrifices and offerings made in this covenant . He is NOT making 2 different covenants with them but one that contains BOTH THINGS.

And keep in mind that then starting in Exodus chapter 21 it begins by saying:

Now these are the judgements which thou shalt set before them. Verse 1.

Then the entire chapters of 21-23 are nothing but the judgements YAH is commanding Israel.

So that brings us up to Exodus chapter 24. YAH has now given Moses all THE WORDS ACCORDING TO THE LAW. The words contained the ten commandments, animal sacrifices, judgements and festivals which are noted in Ex. 23:14-17

The people all agreed to do all the words of the covenant. Ex. 24:3

Now the point of this lengthy study hits home in Ex. 24:8

And Moses took the blood and sprikled it on the people and said:

BEHOLD THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH THE LORD HAS MADE WITH YOU CONCERNING ALL THESE WORDS.

Believers this identifies for us THE FIRST COVENANT the Writer of Hebrews was speaking of!

18: Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19: For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20: Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Heb. 9:18-20

The FIRST TESTAMENT or covenant was all the words YAH gave to Moses in the entirety of Exodus 20-23! Not just the sacrificial laws by any means! That there would BE sacrifices is certainly mentioned but the huge bulk of the three chapters is speaking of his COMMANDMENTS AND JUDGEMENTS along with the mention of the 3 annual gatherings!

Now that we have IDENTIFIED what the Writer of Hebrews actually meant by the phrase the FIRST COVENANT lets look at this:

In that he saith a New Covenant he hath made THE FIRST OLD. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to VANISH AWAY. Heb. 8:31

Also this:

6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Heb. 8:6-7

Verse 7 again mentions THE FIRST COVENANT.

It contained all the words of YAH to Israel Exodus 20-23.

There should be no doubt now as to the nature of the FIRST COVENANT. The Writer to the Hebrew believers was admonishing them they could have FULL ASSURANCE to walk in the New Covenant and let the old vanish or fade away.
peace and love, mike

 

[sadiebelle]

Great post Mike. I see nothing in your post that downplays the importance of obeying God yet you have fully explained the difference between the Old covenant and the New; much better than I could have done.
Amen.

 

[SputnikBoy]

sadiebelle: I think you have the wrong idea about me. I fought the sabbath keepers and the legalists over on my other stomping grounds on Christianity.com

Again, I am not advocating legalism but a respect and reverence for the law.

Sputnik: Apologies for truncating your above post. So you ARE the same sadiebelle from Christianity.com? We have met before (briefly) although you may not remember. Why, sadie, do you have a problem with those who choose to OBEY the Sabbath commandment and refer to them as 'legalists'. I just can't come to grips with your take on this issue. You really do seem to contradict yourself. I know of no one who keeps the 7th-day Sabbath as a means of working their way to heaven. I don't say that these people don't exist in ANY denomination, only that I know of no one.

The Sabbath command, however, is as real to some people as are the other 9 commandments, whether they be carved into stone or written into our hearts. Why do you feel that you have the final word on this matter when you're not, I feel, totally aware of all of the facts surrounding some issues? I'm not meaning to be unkind but with every 'dig' you make at someone else's 'Christianity', there is a real person attached. Oftentimes it really makes your 'case' no more credible than the lack of credibility you're giving to the belief system of others.

You believe that 'they' (SDAs in this case) say that they are right and others are wrong; however, you're using the same process against them. You are right and THEY are wrong. The more I involve myself in issues such as this on forums the more scriptures I see being bandied around that appear to support EVERY contradictory doctrine. At times it seems as if 'they' could have a legit point and it might cause one to wonder, "Could it be that my belief is wrong and 'they' are right after all?" Then someone else will make a pertinent point on the forum that appears to confirm one's cherished belief again. Then it's, "Yes, my belief IS the right one after all and 'they' are wrong, just as I suspected." It could make one's head swim. It seems as though EVERYONE has the truth and NO ONE will budge from the belief that they have. Will we ever get it right? :roll: How come there are no 'head swimming' smileys?

 

[Soma-Sight]

You believe that 'they' (SDAs in this case) say that they are right and others are wrong; however, you're using the same process against them. You are right and THEY are wrong. The more I involve myself in issues such as this on forums the more scriptures I see being bandied around that appear to support EVERY contradictory doctrine. At times it seems as if 'they' could have a legit point and it might cause one to wonder, "Could it be that my belief is wrong and 'they' are right after all?" Then someone else will make a pertinent point on the forum that appears to confirm one's cherished belief again. Then it's, "Yes, my belief IS the right one after all and 'they' are wrong, just as I suspected." It could make one's head swim. It seems as though EVERYONE has the truth and NO ONE will budge from the belief that they have. Will we ever get it right? How come there are no 'head swimming' smileys?

Man is not saved by "good" theology alone....

We are all still lost until we allow God to change us.

I believe it is time for me to leave this game.

No one here cares about the Truth including myself.


I am living a lie.

 

[sadiebelle]

Apologies for truncating your above post. So you ARE the same sadiebelle from Christianity.com? We have met before (briefly) although you may not remember.

Did you have the same user name?

Why, sadie, do you have a problem with those who choose to OBEY the Sabbath commandment and refer to them as 'legalists'. I just can't come to grips with your take on this issue. You really do seem to contradict yourself. I know of no one who keeps the 7th-day Sabbath as a means of working their way to heaven. I don't say that these people don't exist in ANY denomination, only that I know of no one.

The problem is not that they choose to keep Saturday sabbath but that Sabbath Keepers generally make a case that 'Sunday Worshippers' are ignoring the Word of God, sinning, or being paganistic. There are plenty of other people who use Sat. as their day of worship, not just the SDAs. Although, it's been the SDAs that I've run into on this issue the most and a lot of them make this one thing a salvational issue. That's the problem.

The Sabbath command, however, is as real to some people as are the other 9 commandments, whether they be carved into stone or written into our hearts. Why do you feel that you have the final word on this matter when you're not, I feel, totally aware of all of the facts surrounding some issues? I'm not meaning to be unkind but with every 'dig' you make at someone else's 'Christianity', there is a real person attached. Oftentimes it really makes your 'case' no more credible than the lack of credibility you're giving to the belief system of others.

Can you show me one of my 'digs'??

You believe that 'they' (SDAs in this case) say that they are right and others are wrong; however, you're using the same process against them.

"Adventists insist it will be a 'final test' even though it is impossible to believe Jesus and the apostles would be silent on such a profound issue. If the final climatic battle between good and evil, the war to end all wars, is to be fought over the Sabbath, then why did Jesus and the apostles ignore the issue entirely?" --Dirk Anderson, "National Sunday Law: Fact or Fiction?", 2001

There is only one truth. Truth cannot be subjetive or 'open to interpretation'. Somebody has to be wrong. I always err on the side of God's Word and I know that you do too. For me, God's Word is clear on the subject of resting in Christ. The NT makes it perfectly obvious, to me, that as Christians resting in Christ, we enjoy this priveledge every single day of the week, 24/7, not just on Sat. In fact, Sunday is more about the assembly of the fellowship of believers than it is about setting aside a day of rest; a sabbath.
I don't do anything different on Sunday, except gather with like-minded Christians, that I don't do on any other day of the week. In fact, I spend more time in the Word and in prayer and with Christ during the week when my kids are in school, than I do on Sunday when the whole family is together. So...
...yeah.
*shrugging*

 

[Jay T]

I believe that Grace is of no value, if one persisits in committing sin....

Why would grace promote someone to persist on in committing sin. Thats evidence that one does not know Christ (1 John 3:6).

That is precisely my point !

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

And sin is, breaking God's 10 commandments

Are you letting your pastor know he's sinning because he's working on the Sabbath?!

Did Jesus Christ commit sin, when he went into the meeting place on the Sabbath, to read from the scriptures ?

Or is this the part where you pick and choose which ones you want to apply to your life?!

And that is what the modern Christian world has done....they choose to ignore what they do not wish to practice, from God's word.

To break just one of the commandments, is to break them all, (James 2:10-12).

 

[Servant_2000]

I believe that Grace is of no value, if one persisits in committing sin....

JayT,

If we have no sin we don't need Grace, yes?

And we would not need a savior either.

If we don't need grace then what are the teachings of Jesus needed for?

I need Grace For I am a sinner of sinners therefore I need the teachings of Jesus. Believe me I do!!!!!

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law (AMEN !!!!!), but under grace (AMEN!!!!). What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Rom. 6:14-15

That is precisely my point !

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

Jay T. you left out what commandment John was talking about in his letter, so I will put it up for you.

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

Jay T, do you believe that Jesus saved you or do you doubt?

Jay T, do you Love those who you teach the Law to.

And sin is, breaking God's 10 commandments

Anything not of faith is sin!

Do you agree with Jude that "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immarality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord"? NIV Jude 4.

Do you agree with Paul? He wrote:

"Where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace my increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" --Paul, NIV Romans 5:20-6:2.

Do you agree with God? He said:

" Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but innwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them ."

--Jesus of Nazareth, God-Walking-Earth, NIV Matthew 7:15-20.

To break just one of the commandments, is to break them all, (James 2:10-12).

I, WAS guilty of all.

 

[Scott]

I edited the last 2 post on this thread, the first was JayT's and the other was servant_2000's because I was quoted as saying something JayT said. Thus the ensuing post quoted him but referred to me as its author. This the second time someone has done this in the last few days, lets make sure we are quoting the correct person instead of assuming.

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will obey what I command."

Matthew 19:18-19
" "Which ones?†the man enquired. Jesus replied, “`Do not
murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give
false testimony, honour your father and mother,’ and `love your neighbour as yourself.’“

And that is what the modern Christian world has done....they choose to ignore what they do not wish to practice, from God's word.

Choose to ignore what, do not practice what?! You assume that if one is not attenting an SDA church that we are disobeying the Word of God. You (SDA's) don't even keep the Sabbath as it was commanded, yet you condemn everyone who doesn't worship the day as you do. Like I said before, if you want to brag about keeping the Sabbath, keep it in the way it was given instead of picking and choosing how you want to observe it. While you're doing that, I'll be reading Colossians 2:13-15.

 

[Heidi]

Jesus said we have one teacher and that is the Christ. Why do so few people listen to him???

He also said in John 10:14-17, "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-just as the father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for my sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this pen. I must bring them in also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

So why do so many "Christians" instead, listen to Luther, Calvin, William Miller, Joseph Smith, the pope, etc.? As Jesus says, all we have to do is listen to his voice. 2 Co 11:5, "Do you not know that you have Christ Jesus in you?"

Christ inside of us cannot cast out Christ's words in the bible. They are right there for all to see. We have one Shepherd! Yet so few Christians listen to him! Everything we need to know about him is in his words in scripture. The lack of faith that so many people have in God's revelation through the bible of everything we need to know about Jesus is astounding! This is also an insult to Christ's ability to give us what we need. John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." Yet so few Christians believe that.

 

[Jay T]

[quote="Jay T":c51aa]I believe that Grace is of no value, if one persisits in committing sin....

JayT,

If we have no sin we don't need Grace, yes?

Grace is the power of God, to overcome sin (Romans 6:12-160

Jay T, do you believe that Jesus saved you or do you doubt?

I am in the process of being saved....as the word 'saved' implies that one cannot sin ever again.
As scripture says:
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people [from] their sins.

Jay T, do you Love those who you teach the Law to.

1 John 5:2 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments".

And sin is, breaking God's 10 commandments

Anything not of faith is sin!

That is what I've been saying about Sunday worship services, for some time now.

Do you agree with Jude that "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immarality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord"? NIV Jude 4.

Psalms 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness".[/quote:c51aa]

Do you agree with Paul? He wrote:

"Where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace my increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" --Paul, NIV Romans 5:20-6:2.

Dying to sin means, to no commit sin anymore.
I wish the Christian world understood this fact.

Do you agree with God? He said:

" Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but innwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them ."

The Bible test to know who as the truth of God or not is found in Isaiah 8:20......."To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them".



Psalms 119:166 "LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments".

 

[Lekazar]

"But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath
day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses.'"
(Jeremiah 17:27)

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must
be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."
(Exodus 35:2-3)

Amen, all praise to the LORD!

 

[Rob]

"But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath
day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses.'"
(Jeremiah 17:27)

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must
be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."
(Exodus 35:2-3)

Amen, all praise to the LORD!

Finally something we can agree on without me having to ask 20 qeustions lol. I only have one problem with most people that try to keep the Sabbath and condemn those that don't. Most of these people are really big hypocrytes in that they don't work on the Sabbath but they make other people work by going out shopping, eatiing out, or anything else that requires someone else to work. That to me is making someone fail to follow one of God's commandments wouldn't you agree. I'm not saying you are one of those people, so please don't take it that way. I'm just saying that I find most people that believe in keeping the Sabbath do prove to be hypocrytes in that respect.