A mortal God?

[Drew]

Since you quoted my post I will ask again.

How does God get away with tantamount to genocide and then turn to us after smelling some over cooked steak and say

"Sorry! Never gonna do that again.".

That god is insane. That god does not just get away with that.

Not sure I follow the part that deal with "steak". Can you please clarify?

Now, about the "genocide": I assume you are referring to those Old Testament texts where God orders the mass killing of entire populations. I propose that it is at least conceivable that God has no choice but to do this, if creation is to be ultimately rescued.

Analogy: Fred is given a cancer diagnosis. The doctors subject him to chemotherapy. Fred suffers greatly from the chemotherapy. Are the doctors "evil" for putting Fred through such suffering? Of course not - given the present state of medical technology, this regime of treatment is in Fred's best long term interests.

I submit that it is at least possible that this principle is at work in all these genocides. Horrific as it may seem, perhaps God has to go that route in the long term interests of rescuing mankind. Another cancer analogy: doctors amputate Fred's leg to save his life. Part of Fred has died - the doctors have willingly killed part of Fred. However, they have no other choice if they want to save Fred.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Since you quoted my post I will ask again.

How does God get away with tantamount to genocide and then turn to us after smelling some over cooked steak and say

"Sorry! Never gonna do that again.".

That god is insane. That god does not just get away with that.

If you're interested, here are some articles on that subject:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/criticisms_gods_character.html

May I also point out that the people He told the Israelites to attack were practicing such unsavory things as child and human sacrifice to their gods? He didn't want that kind of thing spreading.
Also, they had a warning and 400 years to change their ways while the Israelites were in Egypt.


So you're doubting what you've been taught. I understand. Happens to everybody at some point. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't try to answer the hard questions thinking that any kind of doubt is wrong and this makes things worse.
That said, at this point, IMO, evidence shouldn't be the only or maybe not even the main focus. There are answers, but with all the stuff coming from both sides, it's going to be overwhelming and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to sort through it all. Both sides can be very convincing.
If you're open to it, maybe try talking to God about how you feel. ...have you ever accepted Jesus as your Savior?

I'm not saying it's the only answer. I'm going largely off my own experience here, and it may be different from your's.
And I'm not going to ask you to believe in something you don't, either. I wish you the best, whatever you end up doing.

 

[Drew]

Here's a question.

What gives God the right to kill?

AGAIN, 99.999% of the population of the Earth. That is not love. That is not justice. That is sick. THAT is why I can no longer do this.

Endless arguments about love, faith, good, evil, truth, justice.

If God is real he deserves no less than a parent who murders tneir child.

You have a right to believe what you wish.

But it certainly appears that you are not engaging arguments as to why God may be "killing" in order to save the world in the long run. You can ignore these arguments if you like, but I suggest the path of "open-mindedness" involves dealing with them.

 

[AlexBC]

Then I guess you can consider me lying too... I have a bicuspid aortic valve and was diagnosed with stenosis several years back. Stenosis is genetic as is my heart disease and can't be controlled by diet, exercise etc. It is what it is. I was born that way and it runs in my family.

Last 2 ultra sounds and ct scans showed I am stenosis free. All glory be to God.

Um...see above answer. What does this prove? At best that you have an amazingly resilient body.

What was the cause of the stenosis? And a bicuspid aortic valve does not neccessarily mean that a person cannot go on to live as long a life as a person with a normaly functiong heart.

 

[AlexBC]

The steak? Noah gives God some burnt animals as an offering.

And doesn't God imediately say to Noah after the flood that Man has a knowledge of evil from birth anyway so he won't do anything like the flood again?

What the...seriously!? He knew that already and still he goes and kills every..no. Just, no.

And that means Noah et al are capable of then going on to give birth to children capable of the same evils as the other humans he murdered. Great plan.

 

[Drew]

And Jonas Salk was not an angel.

True, but how do you know that Jonas Salk, whether he realized it or not, was the agency, the means, by which God has chosen to heal at least a small part of this world?

 

[evenifigoalone]

In my experience, God has a reason for everything even if it's not obvious. According to the Bible the people who were around prior to the flood were extremely wicked and they probably were practicing things that, again, He didn't want to be spread. I don't know for certain if this is true about the people who were around during Noah's flood, but if it's true about the Canannites then it's likely true about this, too.
And once again, they had 600 years to change.

The Bible says God is longsuffering, slow to anger. He gave warnings for hundreds of years before He did anything drastic.

 

[AlexBC]

True, but how do you know that Jonas Salk, whether he realized it or not, was the agency, the means, by which God has chosen to heal at least a small part of this world?

Because that AIDS thing was just NOT worth his time.

Oh, wait, there's an agenda there. Bad example

 

[AlexBC]

In my experience, God has a reason for everything even if it's not obvious. According to the Bible the people who were around prior to the flood were extremely wicked and they probably were practicing things that, again, He didn't want to be spread. I don't know for certain if this is true about the people who were around during Noah's flood, but if it's true about the Canannites then it's likely true about this, too.
And once again, they had 600 years to change.

What, he couldn't just sit down with them and talk it out. Look what that kind of action does in areas plagued with gangs. They CAN be reasoned with.

And he outright tells Noah that man is just born that way anyway thus making the deluge pointless.

He's coming across as a tad incompetent there.

 

[evenifigoalone]

He did sit down and talk it out. Through Noah.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Going back to the start of this thread...if you want to hear about miracles, I recommend reading into the lives of some past and present missionaries and their work. They have some incredible stories.

 

[Drew]

Because that AIDS thing was just NOT worth his time.

Oh, wait, there's an agenda there. Bad example

I get the impression that you are, perhaps quite legitimately, reacting to some "stuff" you hear from voices who purport to represent the church. Well, a lot of people can claim a lot of things.

I believe I have provided a general framework that allows one to accept the reality of suffering in a world that, nevertheless, includes an active "Christian" God.

Are you going to actually engage what I (and others) are saying?

 

[AlexBC]

He did sit down and talk it out. Through Noah.

No. Personally come down and say

"Yep. Almighty God, mofos. Stop that. Or i'll cut it off".

 

[evenifigoalone]

No. Personally come down and say

"Yep. Almighty God, mofos. Stop that. Or i'll cut it off".

I suppose all that can really be said is, God's ways are not our ways. He's not bound by the things we are. From what I've seen in the Bible, if I recall, He only directly appeared to the people who actually believed in Him.
I think Christianity, believing in God, is meant to be partially based on faith and trust. It's not meant to reject logic--God made logic, too, and it should be utilized--but you don't believe in it based on nothing but evidence. It's meant to be a relationship, and relationships are based on trust.



I have things to go and do now, so I'll have to talk later. God bless.

 

[AlexBC]

I get the impression that you are, perhaps quite legitimately, reacting to some "stuff" you hear from voices who purport to represent the church. Well, a lot of people can claim a lot of things.

I believe I have provided a general framework that allows one to accept the reality of suffering in a world that, nevertheless, includes an active "Christian" God.

Are you going to actually engage what I (and others) are saying?

How to I engage something that is defined by many people in many different ways? What do you define as "engage"?

I've gone to church every sunday, listened to the sermons.

 

[Grazer]

AlexBC - you raise some very difficult questions. Its making me think about my conceptions of Gods actions but I don't mind facing these types of questions

 

[Drew]

How to I engage something that is defined by many people in many different ways?

Fair point - you will hear many different, contradictory things from people all claiming to have understood what the Bible is saying. But this is not, in my view anyway, grounds to dismiss the possibility that there is a fundamentally "correct" way to understand the Bible.

What do you define as "engage"?

All I mean is that I was hoping you would at least respond to some of my points about how the presence of suffering and evil is not inconsistent with the notion of a "good" God at work in the world.

I've gone to church every sunday, listened to the sermons.

If your experience is anything like mine, I will wager that you have yet to be exposed to a way to make sense of suffering within a Christian framework. That does not mean that, if you keep looking, you may see a way through this.

 

[stovebolts]

Um...see above answer. What does this prove? At best that you have an amazingly resilient body.

What was the cause of the stenosis? And a bicuspid aortic valve does not neccessarily mean that a person cannot go on to live as long a life as a person with a normaly functiong heart.

In my case, I was born with a bicuspid aortic valve. I've had a heart murmur since birth. The early stenosis was caused by my form of heart disease which crept up the valve and created an aortic root aneurysm. Actually, this is common for those of us with bicuspid valves. Essentially the stenosis is simply a build up of calcium around the flaps of the valve which hardens the flaps and causes them not to close all the way. As the heart beats, pressure from the artery is isolated between beats as the valve opens and closes. Because Stenosis is a buildup of calcium and hardens the valve, the valve is not able to close all the way and what is called regurgetation occurs. This simply means that blood flows back into the heart by the leaky valve.

From what I've read, you can't do anything to prevent the stenosis nor can you do anything to slow it down. It has you for life and only gets worse. Treatment is by way of valve replacement when the regurgitation gets to extreme or in the case of my aneurysm, that also constitutes immediate surgery. In my case, it's a very risky operation since the valve transitions directly into the aneurysm and both would have to be done at the same time. Cleveland has a pretty good success rate, but I'm not really excited about the idea of open heart surgery.

I have the results of my first checkup and I have a copy of my last checkup. The stenosis is gone, and the aneurysm has shrunk. This defy's medicine.

 

[Free]

Without God there is no ultimate Justice. Huh.

Then, why is it the devil that gets all those sinners? Heck, if he loves sin so much, why wouldn't he welcome them with open arms and a beer. Warm, of course.

Yes, without God there is ultimately no justice. You and others want justice but are so quick to dismiss the only One who is truly just and will deal with people justly. He has provided the means of salvation and given people the choice of whether or not to accept that means.

The very idea of justice demands that there be such real categories as good and evil. But if there is no moral law Giver, then there is no moral law. If there is no moral law, there are no such categories as good and evil. If there is no good or evil, there can never be justice.

You could equally say the Devil is the true reason we have morals and ethics. He seems to be the one keeping us in line. He's the scalding parent.

Really? The devil is a created being, a contingent being, so he most certainly could not be the reason we have morals and ethics. God disciplines those he loves.

Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Heb 12:12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
Heb 12:13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. (ESV)

Another nail in the coffin of my faith is why would a loving God kill 99.9999% of the Humans on Earth!!!?

That is not a loving god. Who holds HIM accountable for THOSE deaths?

I must remind you then that God knows all that has ever happened, all the evil that has ever been done and is being done; that he knows the deepest secrets of persons heart; that he is so holy and man is utterly sinful by comparison.

We deserve death. It is God who has provided the means to salvation through Jesus.

 

[Free]

I often find it difficult to reconcile the depictions of "miracles" in the Bible with the lack of said miracles in the modern world.

I look for miracles and people give me examples that can be explained without invoking God. You'd think that we'd be given miracles that would impress a people who are pretty indifferent to things like going to the Moon!

What i'm getting at here is whether a case can be made for whether or not God still exists. Are we living in his creation but without the creator? Why is he keeping such a low profile if he still lives?

I suggest that this may be the case in North America and other western nations, which is quite unsurprising given the state of the church in those nations, but that this is quite possibly not the case in other parts of the world.