A mortal God?

[Danus]

I would not describe myself as a Deist. I honestly find it harder and harder to describe myself as a Christian these days. The more I read, the more I see just makes it harder and harder to justify what I was told to believe.

Trite answer but a burning bush would not go amiss.

And neither of the first two questions does me any good. It's the kind of non answer that has me looking for other answers.i

I would not encourage you to believe in anything you where lead to believe in without believing.

This is not to say that I would discourage you from describing yourself as a Christian, but if you do not have faith, then looking for faith based on your own idea of evidence is not, IMO, a way to find it.

You can find anyone to give you a "Christianize" answer about God, but it's not worth much is it, when you already have other answers that seem more plausible.

We can argue the existence or non-existence of God all day long and in the end it will not change anything, but in the end we are left only with what each have as "proof" of God.

In keeping with your original question "Is God Mortal?" (paraphrasing) It's important to note, that the Gospel describes God being among us as a mortal being, subject to physical death. The only mericle that matters in this day is trusting in that and knowing that Christ as God bought you out of Love with a high price that He paid as a deposit for you.

Love, some express, is a feeling, but that's not true. It has many feelings associated with it, but Love is a way of life, not a feeling.

Paul describes Love the best in 1 Corinthians 13. (NIV)


13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>For we know in part and we prophesy in part, <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>but when completeness comes,what is in part disappears. <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.But the greatest of these is love.


In many ways Paul is saying that miracles and deeds and wonders are worthless without Love.



You want see miracles in your life? You want proof of God? Then tap into Love, because unless you do, you have nothing, and you might as well be like anyone else who does not believe and allow your fate to be fatalistically determined by your own feelings.

 

[Drew]

By giving humans complete free will, God has made a stupid decision. I can't know. I am convinced of it. History seems to corraborate the affirm on my belief.

I suggest your reasoning is open to the following objections;

1. You assume that God perfectly knows the future, as you should know by now, I challenge whether such a view is Biblical;

2. Even if God does perfectly know the future, I can argue that giving human beings free will is best in the long term, even if it may not seem like the best thing now.

Any smart God could have seen it coming.

See point 2, above. It is entirely conceivable that God could see the problem coming, and yet the best possible future state of the world involves having to go through the problem to get there.

 

[Drew]

There is no doubt the bible has a story format. I am talking about the fact that we live in a phase of the bible where there are little mirales.

Until you have presented evidence, this is all assertions, assertions, and yet more assertions.

Agree - I have never claimed to have supported my assertions yet. But, I believe you can point to no fundamental reason why what I suggesting is not at least possible.

Again: To make the case that the Bible is a narrative is a little like asking me to prove E=mc squared from first principles - it can be done, but it takes a lot of work. I am not sure I have the time to do this.

 

[Drew]

Yes, I understand what the word "story" meant in context. What I meant was is there a continuation of the Bible. If that book and it's narrative are so important then where is the last 2000 years worth of chapters and verse?

I do not understand your question - can you please clarify?

I believe that the "last 2000 years" comprise the "advancement of the kingdom of God" phase of the overall narrative, which will culminate in a future return of Jesus who will fully consummate that advancement. Creation will then be "restored" to its Edenic state.

 

[Drew]

There are three conclusions

One: God isn't all loving, and is not Good.

Two: God isn't all powerful

Three: God doesn't exist.

Take your pick.

I'll take number two - there is, I suggest, no Biblical case that God is all powerful in the specific sense that He cannot "magically" undo the consequences of a risk He took (creating man and endowing man with authority over creation) that went wrong.

 

[Drew]

That was basic question, yes. The lack of any intervention on the biblical scale just seems strange.

I agree that it looks strange. However, as per earlier posts of mine, I believe that the absence of "spectacular public miracles" does not threaten the picture of God we see in the Scriptures, especially when we realize (which we will, if we know our Bibles) that the Scriptures are an evolving narrative.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hosea 4:6,7
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

This is why bad things happen to seemingly good people because they refuse God and His son Christ Jesus and instead of coming boldly to His throne of grace in time of need they run away from it. Just because we are born again or a child of God does not mean that we are exempt from anything bad happening to us because we do still have to live in this fleshly body, but now when sickness, finances, or whatever Satan can throw at you, you now have power and authority through the mercy of God to speak to those problems no matter what they are and cast them out of your lives as a witness and testimony to God, but also you must have forgiveness in your heart towards any one no matter what they have done, Mark 11:23-26.

For me I know when I had left God behind I had horrendous things happen to me and even got to the point where I did not believe he even existed. It was only when I was at my lowest point that all I had left was to look up and at that time God changed me and changed my life that only now can I live for Him and now use what I had gone through to give hope to others that are going through the same things.

As far as starving children and poor people, the sick and dying, we will always have them with us not only in Africa or other foreign countries, but even in our own backyards here in America. What can we as Christians do about it? Give them hope and faith in Christ that can take them out of their situations as God will supply their needs for food and shelter. We need to get out of our comfort zones and open our hearts our homes and our talents to help those who are less fortunate then we are.

Like the old saying, give a man a fish to eat and he will eat once, but teach a man to fish and he will eat all the days of his life. There is no situation to hard that God will not bring you through it if you only trust and have faith and patience in Gods timing. It's not God destroying this world, but the people of this world destroying themselves for lack of knowledge. Gods word is application to our lives and if we do not apply it like an ointment to a wound then our lives will fester and soon will be swallowed up by that which overcomes us.

 

[AlexBC]

Hosea 4:6,7
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

This is why bad things happen to seemingly good people because they refuse God and His son Christ Jesus and instead of coming boldly to His throne of grace in time of need they run away from it. Just because we are born again or a child of God does not mean that we are exempt from anything bad happening to us because we do still have to live in this fleshly body, but now when sickness, finances, or whatever Satan can throw at you, you now have power and authority through the mercy of God to speak to those problems no matter what they are and cast them out of your lives as a witness and testimony to God, but also you must have forgiveness in your heart towards any one no matter what they have done, Mark 11:23-26.

For me I know when I had left God behind I had horrendous things happen to me and even got to the point where I did not believe he even existed. It was only when I was at my lowest point that all I had left was to look up and at that time God changed me and changed my life that only now can I live for Him and now use what I had gone through to give hope to others that are going through the same things.

As far as starving children and poor people, the sick and dying, we will always have them with us not only in Africa or other foreign countries, but even in our own backyards here in America. What can we as Christians do about it? Give them hope and faith in Christ that can take them out of their situations as God will supply their needs for food and shelter. We need to get out of our comfort zones and open our hearts our homes and our talents to help those who are less fortunate then we are.

Like the old saying, give a man a fish to eat and he will eat once, but teach a man to fish and he will eat all the days of his life. There is no situation to hard that God will not bring you through it if you only trust and have faith and patience in Gods timing. It's not God destroying this world, but the people of this world destroying themselves for lack of knowledge. Gods word is application to our lives and if we do not apply it like an ointment to a wound then our lives will fester and soon will be swallowed up by that which overcomes us.

This. This is the kind of thinking that sickens me. God allows people to starve because they havn't accepted him yet!?

That's like a protection racket. That is not a loving god. That is a sick twisted narcicist.

 

[Drew]

This. This is the kind of thinking that sickens me. God allows people to starve because they havn't accepted him yet!?

That's like a protection racket. That is not a loving god. That is a sick twisted narcicist.

I share your problem with the view that this poster has presented. The important point: that poster has his / her view. Fine. But please do not assume that this view is the Biblical view.

I propose the following as the Biblical "explanation":

1. God created man and endowed him with free will. This was a risk;
2. Man "fell" and creation is badly damaged; Sadly, the risk is realised;
3. God is presently "fixing" creation, but this is an unavoidably complex and long task;
4. Therefore, we can understand suffering as something God wants to fix, and is doing the best He can do in order to fix, but the work is still on-going.

 

[Danus]

This. This is the kind of thinking that sickens me. God allows people to starve because they havn't accepted him yet!?

That's like a protection racket. That is not a loving god. That is a sick twisted narcicist.

The point being made is that God does not allow people to starve, we do. If we are going to complain to God about people starving, and evil in the world, then we need to be prepared for His question to us. What are you doing about it? Why are you allowing it?

OR....if there is no God, and we want to say it's because of the evil in the world, then the question remains. Why bring God into it if we are willing to leave him out of it?

 

[Free]

Nope, concern for the innocents is. Justice and fairness is my main issue.

The irony is, without God, there is no ultimate justice.

You assume right, I do harbor resentment towards the idea that a God is watching over us, because if it is true, then it isn't a God I would want to worship. I would rather have a God that stands by justice, rather then use uneccessary means to make OTHERS learn lessons.

I am fine without control, but if there is a God, and he is good, he has to uphold justice, and isn't good if he doesn't. There are three conclusions. One: God isn't all loving, and is not Good.

Two: God isn't all powerful

Three: God doesn't exist.

Take your pick.

There are certainly more choices than those. God certainly is loving, he certainly exists and he is certainly so powerful that in relation to us he is all-powerful but any idea of omnipotence must be qualified further.

The position I believe to be the most biblical is that this all-loving, "all-powerful" God did, in fact, create everything good but man's decision to sin caused all creation to be subject to all manner of evil. Being that God is loving, he has provided the means by which justice and redemption are to be brought in the world so that everything can be made right. This means was provided through the death and resurrection of Jesus and is to be carried out through his followers but, unfortunately, man is also a part of the problem.

It is far more complicated than your three choices would make it seem.

 

[AlexBC]

Without God there is no ultimate Justice. Huh.

Then, why is it the devil that gets all those sinners? Heck, if he loves sin so much, why wouldn't he welcome them with open arms and a beer. Warm, of course.

You could equally say the Devil is the true reason we have morals and ethics. He seems to be the one keeping us in line. He's the scalding parent.

Another nail in the coffin of my faith is why would a loving God kill 99.9999% of the Humans on Earth!!!?

That is not a loving god. Who holds HIM accountable for THOSE deaths?

 

[Drew]

Another nail in the coffin of my faith is why would a loving God kill 99.9999% of the Humans on Earth!!!?

That is not a loving god. Who holds HIM accountable for THOSE deaths?

I suggest that you have been presented with at least part of a model that explains how death and suffering can be "explained" within a theistic framework. So, please, address the relevant points.

As per the explanations given, it is man who fundamentally created the problems that lead to death and suffering, not God.

Now, if you want to talk about the "wisdom" of God taking the risk of putting creation in the hands of Adam (mankind), fine. But, I suggest you are framing the problem improperly in your question, above.

 

[Kidron]

I often find it difficult to reconcile the depictions of "miracles" in the Bible with the lack of said miracles in the modern world.

I look for miracles and people give me examples that can be explained without invoking God. You'd think that we'd be given miracles that would impress a people who are pretty indifferent to things like going to the Moon!

What i'm getting at here is whether a case can be made for whether or not God still exists. Are we living in his creation but without the creator? Why is he keeping such a low profile if he still lives?

According to Hebrews 1:3 , If there is a world, a universe, and all of creation, .........if all of this is still in existence then God and Christ are still functioning nicely, as all things that exist = remain and are upheld by the Word of their power".


And do you consider an incurable disease being healed a "miracle' or is that too "Low budget" in your mind to be considered a real miracle?
The reason i ask is because i once had Muscular Dystrophy, and now i dont..
I'll let you guess why i dont.




K

 

[AlexBC]

I suggest that you have been presented with at least part of a model that explains how death and suffering can be "explained" within a theistic framework. So, please, address the relevant points.

As per the explanations given, it is man who fundamentally created the problems that lead to death and suffering, not God.

Now, if you want to talk about the "wisdom" of God taking the risk of putting creation in the hands of Adam (mankind), fine. But, I suggest you are framing the problem improperly in your question, above.

Since you quoted my post I will ask again.

How does God get away with tantamount to genocide and then turn to us after smelling some over cooked steak and say

"Sorry! Never gonna do that again.".

That god is insane. That god does not just get away with that.

 

[Grazer]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/07/john-piper-on-why-its-right-for-god-to-slaughter-women-and-children-anytime-he-pleases-and-why-i-have-some-major-problems-with-that/

Just putting this into the mix

 

[stovebolts]

agree, God does allow these things, and I am grateful that he does, but not for the reasons you may think. The story of the Bible is that there is power in weakness. I would assert that you don't know your bible and as such, you don't know God, nor do you know how God functions.

God allows many, many things including painful things. Life is fragile, and we have reminders all around us if we but look to see them. God allows suffering for many, many reasons yet many don't have the courage to see them. Nobody likes to be weak.

When I read your words, I hear a tone of resentment and bitterness. Your saying "What kind of a God could allow all these things to happen". Of course, you know better and your idea of God again is much different than the God described in the Bible. What you are really screaming is, "I can't control the suffering and I want it to end." Control, isn't that really the issue here? You can't control every thing in your life, so you hold bitterness and strike out toward a God you don't even know while building a case to divert the real issue.

Nope, concern for the innocents is. Justice and fairness is my main issue.

Nope what? Below you agree that you harbor resentment. Could you let me know what your "noping" on?

You assume right, I do harbor resentment towards the idea that a God is watching over us, because if it is true, then it isn't a God I would want to worship. I would rather have a God that stands by justice, rather then use uneccessary means to make OTHERS learn lessons.

Let me tell you one thing that I have that you can never have. Hope.
Revelation 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

Again, your resentment is blurring your vision toward God's word. Our God is a God of mercy and Justice, yet you will not receive Him. Instead you paint a picture of a God that is not supported by the biblical text, but instead fabricate an argument based on your resentment. Amazing.

I am fine without control, but if there is a God, and he is good, he has to uphold justice, and isn't good if he doesn't. There are three conclusions.

A judge is only a bad judge when he does not administer justice. This assumes that a violation has been committed. You are not fine without control. You want control of things that are well beyond your control and you can't have what you want. It is much like a Burger King Christian... They only want God their way... Free will means that we are free to make our own choices. Again, we live in a fallen world because of sin. Life is not fair. If anyone told you it was, well... they lied to you.

You can't control that somebody suffers. Say they are born with a defect or something tragic happens in their life. It's part of the world we live in. You mentioned earlier something about evil. Do you even know what evil is?

Tell me, is evil something that's done, or something that's not done?

One: God isn't all loving, and is not Good.

The Bible says that God is love. Tell me in your own words, what is love? Also, tell me what good is using your own words.

Two: God isn't all powerful

You mean because he doesn't act the way you think he should act, he's not all powerful. Amazing conclusion considering you don't even know the biblical narrative.

Three: God doesn't exist.

I would suggest that if this is your view, then you have no business being on this forum and I would kindly ask you to leave.

Take your pick.

The options don't represent the Biblical God I serve. Sorry. :waving

 

[AlexBC]

According to Hebrews 1:3 , If there is a world, a universe, and all of creation, .........if all of this is still in existence then God and Christ are still functioning nicely, as all things that exist = remain and are upheld by the Word of their power".


And do you consider an incurable disease being healed a "miracle' or is that too "Low budget" in your mind to be considered a real miracle?
The reason i ask is because i once had Muscular Dystrophy, and now i dont..
I'll let you guess why i dont.




K

Without knowing your medical history, no. Mis diagnosis. The fact you may be lying. Aren't there a variety of muscular dystrophies? Some can be very mild and seem to go into remission.

And Jonas Salk was not an angel.

 

[stovebolts]

Without knowing your medical history, no. Mis diagnosis. The fact you may be lying. Aren't there a variety of muscular dystrophies? Some can be very mild and seem to go into remission.

And Jonas Salk was not an angel.

Then I guess you can consider me lying too... I have a bicuspid aortic valve and was diagnosed with stenosis several years back. Stenosis is genetic as is my heart disease and can't be controlled by diet, exercise etc. It is what it is. I was born that way and it runs in my family.

Last 2 ultra sounds and ct scans showed I am stenosis free. All glory be to God.

 

[AlexBC]

Here's a question.

What gives God the right to kill?

AGAIN, 99.999% of the population of the Earth. That is not love. That is not justice. That is sick. THAT is why I can no longer do this.

Endless arguments about love, faith, good, evil, truth, justice.

If God is real he deserves no less than a parent who murders tneir child.