A mortal God?

[Atothetheist]

I do not understand your objection. I see nothing problematic with God deciding to create man "in His own image", thereby pouring some of His own power into this created being, and thereby taking the risk that man might screw it up.

So yes, it's "our fault", but how is that problematic? What, precisely, is wrong with such an idea?


Hardly. The case that the scriptures is an evolving narrative is easy to make in principle. With all respect, anyone who is actually well read in the Bible cannot help but discern that it is a narrative with a plot. And, no, I cannot point you to a "verse" that proves the point. But neither can I point you to a single sentence in "A Tale of Two Cities" that proves that it, too, is a narrative (although a fictional one).

The basis narrative is this:

1. God creates the world;
2. Man falls, profoundly damaging creation;
3. God appoints Israel to "solve" the problem;
4. The history of Israel reaches its fulfillment at the cross, as Jesus completes their task and launches the kingdom of God, wherein the process of fixing the damage begins;
5. We are living in that portion of history in which God is working through human agency to "undo" the damage that was done at the fall (see point 2);
6. At some time in future, creation will be fully restored and the narrative reaches its basic conclusion (although there is no reason to believe that there will not be a "sequel".

That the Bible is an evolving narrative is, I politely suggest, basically beyond dispute. It is no small problem, however, that many in the church do not understand this.

You assert that the Bible is evolving, without any evidence to the affirm. Do people that actually study the bible for a living agree on this?

How many professionals agree with your assertion?

 

[Atothetheist]

Who is writing what down? Men wrote the Bible. It has all the defining properties of a narrative - a story. Now to be clear: when I use the words "narrative" and "story", I am not intending to imply that the Bible is fiction.

Real life often manifests narrative structure - one can talk about, for example, the "story" of how the US became a nation.

We based the format of stories on real life, not the otherway around.

 

[Drew]

1. For a being that is ALL knowing, God has made a stupid decision.

How do you know that this decision was stupid? Please be precise and remember: it should be clear that just because a decision did not "work out" in the short term does not mean it is necessarily a "stupid" decision.

 

[Atothetheist]

How do you know that this decision was stupid? Please be precise and remember: it should be clear that just because a decision did not "work out" in the short term does not mean it is necessarily a "stupid" decision.

By giving humans complete free will, God has made a stupid decision. I can't know. I am convinced of it. History seems to corraborate the affirm on my belief.

Any smart God could have seen it coming. Giving humans knowledge, and thinking, but not telling them how to use it, is a bad idea. It's like giving a baby a fully working house, and without interference, letting it try to grow up. No intructions on anything. Either the baby dies, or it does things stupidly.

 

[Drew]

You assert that the Bible is evolving, without any evidence to the affirm.

Correction: I have not yet presented the evidence. And there is tons of it. Your implied request is a little difficult to respond to. Suppose you asked me to give evidence that "War and Peace" is an evolving narrative (which it clearly is) - a story with a plot, and that has a beginning and an end.

How could I "prove" this to you? I would more or less have to retell the entire story.

Again: It is really obvious that the Bible is an evolving narrative if you have carefully read it - any reputable theologian will agree with this. If time permits, I may try to "make the case" that this is the case. But no Biblical scholar would ever deny the narrative structure of the Bible. Maybe a small minority might.

 

[Grazer]

By giving humans complete free will, God has made a stupid decision. I can't be know. I am convinced of it. History seems to corraborate the affirm on my belief.

Any smart God could have seen it coming. Giving humans knowledge, and thinking, but not telling them how to use it, is a bad idea. It's like giving a baby a fully working house, and without interference, letting it try to grow up. No intructions on anything. Either the baby dies, or it does things stupidly.

He could have made us robots but what meaning does love have? What meaning does anything have? Plus, God did give instructions, it was called the law, they chose to ignore it thinking they knew better

 

[Atothetheist]

He could have made us robots but what meaning does love have? What meaning does anything have? Plus, God did give instructions, it was called the law, they just chose to ignore him.

..........:biglol:biglol:biglol

You can have good emotions, without evil. You can have love, without evil. :bigfrown I expected you would at least try to think as if you were in God's shoes ( based on the information given.) You are ALL Powerful, you can make a meaning of love, without evil, or the meaning of life, without evil.

Are you talking about the law that was in the OT?

 

[Atothetheist]

Correction: I have not yet presented the evidence. And there is tons of it. Your implied request is a little difficult to respond to. Suppose you asked me to give evidence that "War and Peace" is an evolving narrative (which it clearly is) - a story with a plot, and that has a beginning and an end.

How could I "prove" this to you? I would more or less have to retell the entire story.

Again: It is really obvious that the Bible is an evolving narrative if you have carefully read it - any reputable theologian will agree with this. If time permits, I may try to "make the case" that this is the case. But no Biblical scholar would ever deny the narrative structure of the Bible. Maybe a small minority might.

There is no doubt the bible has a story format. I am talking about the fact that we live in a phase of the bible where there are little mirales.

Until you have presented evidence, this is all assertions, assertions, and yet more assertions.

 

[Grazer]

..........:biglol:biglol:biglol

You can have good emotions, without evil. You can have love, without evil. :bigfrown I expected you would at least try to think as if you were in God's shoes ( based on the information given.) You are ALL Powerful, you can make a meaning of love, without evil, or the meaning of life, without evil.

Are you talking about the law that was in the OT?

In order for love to be meaningful it needs to be given freely by choice. The capacity to reject and say no needs to be there otherwise how does that constitute a choice? How is that expression of love meaningful? We, as humans, have used our ability to choose and say no to do other things with it as well, evil as you put it. You say we can love without evil, yes but the capacity to do evil is still there. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be a choice.

 

[Atothetheist]

In order for love to be meaningful it needs to be given freely by choice. The capacity to reject and say no needs to be there otherwise how does that constitute a choice? How is that expression of love meaningful? We, as humans, have used our ability to choose and say no to do other things with it as well, evil as you put it.

God is not forcing you to love, he is just not allowing you to do evil. You can be indifferent to somebody without evil.

 

[Grazer]

God is not forcing you to love, he is just not allowing you to do evil. You can be indifferent to somebody without evil.

That's not a free will choice then is it? You can't have it both ways. We are not forced to love God because we have free will. We have used our free will to do more than not love God though. But without complete free will, any expression of love has no meaning.

I've suddenly had a quote from the movie Serenity go through my head:

Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave.

 

[AlexBC]

Who is writing what down? Men wrote the Bible. It has all the defining properties of a narrative - a story. Now to be clear: when I use the words "narrative" and "story", I am not intending to imply that the Bible is fiction.

Real life often manifests narrative structure - one can talk about, for example, the "story" of how the US became a nation.

Yes, I understand what the word "story" meant in context. What I meant was is there a continuation of the Bible. If that book and it's narrative are so important then where is the last 2000 years worth of chapters and verse?

 

[stovebolts]

That is small thinking Compared to God being ALL POWERFUL, and I am sorry about your child.

The lesson COULD be learned, without my cousin's baby, and yours needing to die. God didn't need it, he allowed it.

I agree, God does allow these things, and I am grateful that he does, but not for the reasons you may think. The story of the Bible is that there is power in weakness. I would assert that you don't know your bible and as such, you don't know God, nor do you know how God functions.

God allows many, many things including painful things. Life is fragile, and we have reminders all around us if we but look to see them. God allows suffering for many, many reasons yet many don't have the courage to see them. Nobody likes to be weak.

When I read your words, I hear a tone of resentment and bitterness. Your saying "What kind of a God could allow all these things to happen". Of course, you know better and your idea of God again is much different than the God described in the Bible. What you are really screaming is, "I can't control the suffering and I want it to end." Control, isn't that really the issue here? You can't control every thing in your life, so you hold bitterness and strike out toward a God you don't even know while building a case to divert the real issue.

 

[Atothetheist]

That's not a free will choice then is it? You can't have it both ways. We are not forced to love God because we have free will. We have used our free will to do more than not love God though. But without complete free will, any expression of love has no meaning.

I've suddenly had a quote from the movie Serenity go through my head:

Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave.

Do, and thinking are completely different things. One doesn't need to do "evil" to know the meaning of love. One doesn't need to think of killing or raping or maiming to know the meaning of love. You aren't forced to love anybody, or made to love anybody, you just can't do evil deeds.

 

[Danus]

I often find it difficult to reconcile the depictions of "miracles" in the Bible with the lack of said miracles in the modern world.

I look for miracles and people give me examples that can be explained without invoking God. You'd think that we'd be given miracles that would impress a people who are pretty indifferent to things like going to the Moon!

What i'm getting at here is whether a case can be made for whether or not God still exists. Are we living in his creation but without the creator? Why is he keeping such a low profile if he still lives?

AlexBC, what exactly do you mean with your title question; "A mortal God?"

Are you asking is God Mortal, as in to ask is he subject to death?

 

[Atothetheist]

I agree, God does allow these things, and I am grateful that he does, but not for the reasons you may think. The story of the Bible is that there is power in weakness. I would assert that you don't know your bible and as such, you don't know God, nor do you know how God functions.

God allows many, many things including painful things. Life is fragile, and we have reminders all around us if we but look to see them. God allows suffering for many, many reasons yet many don't have the courage to see them. Nobody likes to be weak.

When I read your words, I hear a tone of resentment and bitterness. Your saying "What kind of a God could allow all these things to happen". Of course, you know better and your idea of God again is much different than the God described in the Bible. What you are really screaming is, "I can't control the suffering and I want it to end." Control, isn't that really the issue here? You can't control every thing in your life, so you hold bitterness and strike out toward a God you don't even know while building a case to divert the real issue.

Nope, concern for the innocents is. Justice and fairness is my main issue.

You assume right, I do harbor resentment towards the idea that a God is watching over us, because if it is true, then it isn't a God I would want to worship. I would rather have a God that stands by justice, rather then use uneccessary means to make OTHERS learn lessons.

I am fine without control, but if there is a God, and he is good, he has to uphold justice, and isn't good if he doesn't. There are three conclusions. One: God isn't all loving, and is not Good.

Two: God isn't all powerful

Three: God doesn't exist.

Take your pick.

 

[AlexBC]

AlexBC, what exactly do you mean with your title question; "A mortal God?"

Are you asking is God Mortal, as in to ask is he subject to death?

That was basic question, yes. The lack of any intervention on the biblical scale just seems strange.

 

[Danus]

That was basic question, yes. The lack of any intervention on the biblical scale just seems strange.

Would you agree that he could be involved in ways your unaware of? or, could His involvement go unnoticed by some, but not others?

What would constitute evidence of God's involvement?

 

[AlexBC]

Would you agree that he could be involved in ways your unaware of? or, could His involvement go unnoticed by some, but not others?

What would constitute evidence of God's involvement?

Trite answer but a burning bush would not go amiss.

And neither of the first two questions does me any good. It's the kind of non answer that has me looking for other answers.i

 

[Drew]

2.An ALL powerful God could have made free will possible without evil

Who says God is all powerful? I suggest that this is basically incorrect, at least Biblically. One has to be careful on what "definition" you use for God. The "all-powerful" God idea comes to us loosely from many quarters. I suggest the specifically Biblical picture of God is one where God cannot do "anything he wants".

3. God is ALL powerful, so by definition, he can break his own commitments.

4. Again, All Powerful.

See previous response.

6. A baseless assumption based on your interpretation of the scriptures.

It is not an assumption - the position I asserted in point 6 is massively supported by the actual Biblical text. In a sense you have me in awkward position - I have studied this complex document known as the Bible for thousands of hours. And now you expect me to "explain" something that I believe to be true about this complex document.

Fair enough, but the nature of the explanation is such that it is very time-consuming. Perhaps I will try to give it a go, but let's be clear about one thing: the case for some assertion "X" can be rock solid, and yet to actually make that case can require a lot of explanation.

I suggest that this is indeed the case here - my point 6 is correct, but to make the case would take a lot of time.

It seems you don't believe in an ALL POWERFUL, all knowing, God?

Correct. I do not believe in either of these assertions, at least in terms of what most people mean by them.

It seems you don't believe in an ALL POWERFUL, all knowing, God?[/QUOTE]