A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone

[john darling]

Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Yeah. According to their deeds.

Since Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. They are judged by their works. I wouldn't call them hellish good works, but really, one could.

Why would someone want to call good deeds hellish?

All sin is evil but not all evil is sin.

Hmm, I could be in agreement with you here, but could you give an example so I have a clearer understanding of what you mean?

The unbeliever goes to the Lake of Fire according to His works.

Or lack of works.

All human good is evil in Gods eyes and their human good is judged as dung compared to the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Ok, what about people acting on the good that Jesus said to do, like "love your neighbor"?

Even as a believer this is true......If I feed the poor with the motivation for approbation from men, it is evil in Gods eyes and counts for nothing.

Ok, so what about the people who do it just because they want to show love to their neighbor?

 

[FreeGrace]

If ones actions are the act of obeying God's command, then ones actions are the very thing that justifies him in the sight of God.

God doesn't need to see one's work before He justifies. He knows the heart. It's man that can't see the heart to know whether there is faith or not. Which is why James taught that believers must demonstrate their faith so that others will see it.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

I provided 9 verses that plainly said that justification is based on faith, where works weren't mentioned. Interesting that you ignored the whole lot.

And you've ignored all the verses that indicate how believers are to live their lives before others, which supports James 2:24. The justification is in the eyes of others, not in the eye of God.

Here they are again:
2 Cor 5:12, 8:21, Rom 12:17, 1 Tim 3:7, 1 Thess 4:12, 1 Pet 2:12, 1 Jn 3:18. These verses are self evident. If you disagree, you'll need to explain why they don't emphasize our lives before others.

 

[FreeGrace]

Moral or ethical actions, which is self righteousness, can not save.

One is saved by faith alone. In fact, it is "not of works, lest any man should boast", per Eph 2:9. Works are excluded.

Man's obedience to the Gospel message that is inspired by God through His sent ones is the way of salvation through Jesus Christ.JLB

Obedience to the gospel means believe in Christ for eternal life. Not performance of works.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't think any of us understands God well enough to tell him what he can and cannot do with his grace. He can give his eternal life to anyone he wants or withhold it from anyone he wants and no amount of arguing on our part will change that.

I think His Word is clear enough for most to understand. And we clearly know who He is pleased to save (give eternal life to). Believers. Only believers. And God keeps His promises.

So, when it comes to who God will give his salvation to, it's probably worth looking at the teachings of Jesus; what did he say about the kind of people God is looking for?

Those who have believed in Christ. 1 Cor 1:21

At times Jesus seemed to be extremely specific in what it takes to be saved and other other times he seemed to be quite loose.

Actually, He was very consistent about how to have eternal life. The book of John is unambiguous about that.

I believe Jesus does this because he is accounting for sincerity.

No one is saved by their sincerity. Many very sincere people are dead wrong, though sincere.

When it comes to judging the heart, man invariably gets it wrong. Some of us have pretty good discernment, but no matter how good it is, only God can see the whole picture and only God can look deep within the heart, both at the same time.

Which is why God doesn't need to see our works before He justifies us, and why James 2:24 is about being justified in the eyes of others. Which is the opposite of being a hypocrite.

 

[john darling]

No, James would no agree with him. His point was that a person demonstrates, not proves, their faith by what they do.

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels. "Can you please prove that you know how to read"? "Yes, I will now demonstrate that I can read". It means the same thing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Since Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. They are judged by their works. I wouldn't call them hellish good works, but really, one could.

Rev 20:11-15 teaches that the degree of suffering or torment will be based on their works. IOW, it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others. Jesus made that exact point: Mt 10:15, 11:22, 24, Mk 6:11 and Lu 10:12,14

The unbeliever goes to the Lake of Fire according to His works.

No, as I've shown above, those who will be cast into the lake of fire were judged according to their works for how "tolerable" it will be for them in the lake of fire. iow, there will be various levels of "toleration" according to Jesus.

Why are people cast into the lake of fire? The only reason is that they did not possess eternal life (20:15).

 

[FreeGrace]

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels. "Can you please prove that you know how to read"? "Yes, I will now demonstrate that I can read". It means the same thing.

Any unbeliever can be as moral as any believer. Does that prove that the unbeliever is saved? Of course not.

Neither does a hypocritical believer prove that they aren't saved.

 

[john darling]

One is saved by faith alone. In fact, it is "not of works, lest any man should boast", per Eph 2:9. Works are excluded.

This is a pretty good example of how we interpret or choose to believe what we want to believe, whether right or wrong. Sometimes we interpret correctly and sometimes we don't.

Paul was not excluding works from the equation. He was giving a warning against becoming proud about good works. People usually leave off verse 10 when they want the verses to conform with their personal theory. Here's the full thought:
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

EPH 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

EPH 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are created to do good works; just don't boast about it as though you've done anything to earn God's free gift.

 

[john darling]

Any unbeliever can be as moral as any believer. Does that prove that the unbeliever is saved? Of course not.

Freegrace, can you please clarify what you mean by "moral" in the context of Jesus' teachings and what it means to believe?

 

[gr8grace3]

No, I'm not. But then again, are any of us? That's the point. Mistakes in the formula do not prevent people from access to God's grace.

Mistakes in Gods formula for salvation WILL prevent people from access to His Grace for salvation.
“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has notbelieved in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

Can you give some examples of people being sincerely wrong, sincerely stubborn, and sincerely unwilling?

Me. I am Sincerely stubborn. Your formula says, that my sincerity has value. I don't think it does.

Do you believe that this is Jesus Christs formula for salvation?

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has notbelieved in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

Thanks for posting this verse, because it shows a fairly clear connection between belief and obedience. In other words, we only know that a person believes because they show their belief. A simple "belief in God" (i.e. that he exists) isn't good enough. We need the kind of faith which produces obedience. And, since God doesn't command us to do bad works, then the kind of obedience we need is in the area of good works.

John 3:36~~New American Standard Bible
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 3:36 directly shows that the obedience is belief, He who believes already has eternal life.

This is the area that the Father demands our work be in when it comes to eternal life and salvation.
New American Standard Bible
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." John 6:29

The good works do not save us, but without the good works, why would God want to save us? God is a good God and his Kingdom is a good kingdom.

Why would God want to save us? Have you ever considered that God wants to save us because of who He is , not because of who or what we are? John 3:16

And you are saying that the good works are saving you. What would happen without any good works in your formula?

It makes sense for his servants to be interested in doing good. Not only interested in doing good, but making it a priority in their lives to do the good that God wants them to do. If people refuse to do good, then there is no reason for them to be a part of a Kingdom which is all about being good.

God demands perfection. But yes, Christians should strive to follow the plan that God has for them.
I didn't follow your food analogy?

 

[john darling]

Obedience to the gospel means believe in Christ for eternal life. Not performance of works.

This is another area where your interpretations of scripture seem to be based more on conforming them to your theory rather than conforming your theory to what the verses actually say.

Here you make a connection between obedience and believe, because you think it suits your argument to do so. But at other times you clearly dismiss any connection between obedience and belief. You talk about obedience and good works as though they are two completely different things, but they are not. When we talk about obedience, the context is obedience to Jesus, and Jesus told us to love our neighbor (i.e. good works).

In other words, you talk about two kinds of obedience. One kind of obedience is like a spiritual kind of "state of mind" which isn't actually about obedience at all but rather just a necessary obligation we must claim without any kind of actual work associated with it. In your explanations, this is the good kind of obedience.

The other kind of obedience is the kind which leads to good works and actions. If we don't obey (i.e. if we don't believe) then we don't get the salvation. This is the bad kind of obedience in your explanations.

You switch back and forth between these two based on how you think it will either support or hurt your personal bias and because both arguments contain the word "obedience" it becomes confusing, so much so that I get the impression that even you don't quite understand the contradiction anymore.

 

[gr8grace3]

Rev 20:11-15 teaches that the degree of suffering or torment will be based on their works. IOW, it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others. Jesus made that exact point: Mt 10:15, 11:22, 24, Mk 6:11 and Lu 10:12,14


No, as I've shown above, those who will be cast into the lake of fire were judged according to their works for how "tolerable" it will be for them in the lake of fire. iow, there will be various levels of "toleration" according to Jesus.

Why are people cast into the lake of fire? The only reason is that they did not possess eternal life (20:15).

I agree.

 

[john darling]

Me. I am Sincerely stubborn. Your formula says, that my sincerity has value. I don't think it does.

Hi gr8. I think you misunderstood what I was asking for. I'm asking for an example of someone (you or anyone) acting in a way that you would consider to be sincerely stubborn. If I don't understand what your meaning is, then I won't know how to give a reasonable response. The example is meant to help me understand the practicality of what you are trying to describe.

Mistakes in Gods formula for salvation WILL prevent people from access to His Grace for salvation.

But, isn't the point of grace and forgiveness that God knows we will make mistakes?

John 3:36 directly shows that the obedience is belief, He who believes already has eternal life.

Yeah, obedience is a sign of belief. A proof. A demonstration. So, if someone is loving their neighbor, that is proof of belief. If someone is NOT loving their neighbor, that is also proof of unbelief. It works both ways. God will save the believer and not the unbeliever and he will use their behavior as the measuring stick for who is who.

Why would God want to save us? Have you ever considered that God wants to save us because of who He is , not because of who or what we are? John 3:16

I don't think the two are incompatible, since our whole purpose in life is to try to be more like Jesus.

And you are saying that the good works are saving you. What would happen without any good works in your formula?

Ultimately it's up to God to decide who he wants to save and for what reasons, though I think Jesus said enough about obedience to his teachings to indicate that God won't be too happy with those who choose to disregard the teachings of his son.

 

[gr8grace3]

Hi gr8. I think you misunderstood what I was asking for. I'm asking for an example of someone (you or anyone) acting in a way that you would consider to be sincerely stubborn. If I don't understand what your meaning is, then I won't know how to give a reasonable response. The example is meant to help me understand the practicality of what you are trying to describe.



But, isn't the point of grace and forgiveness that God knows we will make mistakes?



Yeah, obedience is a sign of belief. A proof. A demonstration. So, if someone is loving their neighbor, that is proof of belief. If someone is NOT loving their neighbor, that is also proof of unbelief. It works both ways. God will save the believer and not the unbeliever and he will use their behavior as the measuring stick for who is who.



I don't think the two are incompatible, since our whole purpose in life is to try to be more like Jesus.



Ultimately it's up to God to decide who he wants to save and for what reasons, though I think Jesus said enough about obedience to his teachings to indicate that God won't be too happy with those who choose to disregard the teachings of his son.

Do you believe that this is Jesus Christs formula for salvation?

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has notbelieved in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

 

[john darling]

Do you believe that this is Jesus Christs formula for salvation?

Sure, at least part of it. I thought we'd moved into discussion about belief and obedience. Why are you now going back to this question? It kinda seems like you're taking a step back to what you feel is a more simplistic argument to defend. I'm not against that in some cases, except that in this case it does appear you are doing so because you don't have an answer to those other issues I raised.

I'm not saying that to put you down, but just recognizing that a discussion about what it means to believe, how that relates to obedience and how the two together relate to salvation is a much better topic than, "this is my formula and I'm sticking to it".

 

[JLB]

One is saved by faith alone.

...not by faith only.

Here is what the plain words of scripture say -

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

 

[gr8grace3]

Sure, at least part of it. I thought we'd moved into discussion about belief and obedience. Why are you now going back to this question? It kinda seems like you're taking a step back to what you feel is a more simplistic argument to defend. I'm not against that in some cases, except that in this case it does appear you are doing so because you don't have an answer to those other issues I raised.

I'm not saying that to put you down, but just recognizing that a discussion about what it means to believe, how that relates to obedience and how the two together relate to salvation is a much better topic than, "this is my formula and I'm sticking to it".

I went back because you never addressed it. Not from my questions anyway. Now I know. My assumption was right, but I didn't see where you addressed is to me specifically.

You are probably right, I couldn't match wits with you and am pretty simple. But you have not brought up anything that hasn't been hashed over 20000 times already. And I personally have answered your specific questions to many before you. And my answers and questions have been written and said by many before I came along.

To be perfectly honest with ya, I knew that the simpleton charge was right around the corner( I wasn't letting silence slide). I have been here a while! But really I was just trying to be very clear on your position with those verses. I made the claim that they were the foundation of salvation and very specific. You made the claim that Jesus was "loose" with some of the ways and I did not see you explain any of these "loose" verses.

So I was looking for clarification that my assumption(they are only part of salvation) was right and didn't put words into your mouth.

So what are the "loose" ways,verses or sayings of Jesus Christ when He speaks of salvation?

 

[twinc]

Scripture please

Human nature is corrupt[Eph.4:22] and cannot please God[Rom.8: 7-8]- also see Rmns.4 and 5 - twinc

 

[Cturtle]

I'd say it demonstrates that their faith is real. One's actions don't really prove that one is saved. There are many very moral and ethical unbelievers, including even atheists. I think the point of James 2 is that believers are expected to demonstrate their faith to others, not just claim they have faith.

Rightly said.
Really to be honest, none of us will really know what is in one's heart, and who is saved and who is not until we get to heaven. I do believe that you can tell if someone is saved by watching them and i believe that the Holy Spirit gives us a check in our spirits, however as time goes on, the master deceiver (the devil) is training one in particular who will try to fool those on the earth. So now is not the time to worry if one is saved, but to make sure that our relationship with Christ is solid, we are walking everything that we are talking, sharing Him with as many as possible, and always being ready to give a response for the hope that lies within us. People nowadays are looking for those who are real, not plastic or can play a good con game.
Blessings to all and may your walk and life be settled in Jesus.

 

[Cturtle]

Cturtle said: ↑
I'm sure this has already been said, but to me it says that a person proves that their faith is real, by what they do.

No, James would no agree with him. His point was that a person demonstrates, not proves, their faith by what they do.

What verse teaches this idea?

Actually to me the words demonstrate and proves mean the same thing.