A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone

[twinc]

Some food for thought. We all look at the same Scriptures yet come away with different conclusions. This suggests that the real issue is in our methodology and the presuppositions we bring to the text. It's not really much different than the creation/evolution debate. You see, both sides look at the same evidence. One side see creation and the other evolution. Which side one falls on depends on their worldview and the presuppositions they bring to the evidence. The Scriptures don't speak, they don't say, hey, reader, you're misunderstanding me. We have to look at the text and interpret what it says and means. The presuppositions we bring to the text determine how we evaluate this evidence and the conclusions we come to.

lndeed and just one step further back who and what has decided which view we hold - twinc

 

[FreeGrace]

It is God who justifies, not man.

Not according to James.

Who were the others that "saw" the work of Abraham offering up Isaac?

Anyone who can read Scripture.

Our obedience does not need to be seen by others for God to justify us.

God doesn't justify anyone on the basis of obedience.

Here's the proof:
Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:28, 30 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

How many verses have you found that say that God justifies on the basis of obedience? Right, none.

The entire point of James 2:14-26 is about demonstrating our faith so others can see it. 2:18 is quite clear.

People go about the work of obeying God every day without anyone observing their obedience.

We are not to do our works before men, but in secret before God.

And we're NOT justified on the basis of obedience. It's FAITH.

The scripture is clear.

Apparently not to some.

Faith without the action of Obedoence is dead.

Yep.

Even the demons believe, and they fear and tremble.

Irrelevant. 2:19 was only about monotheism, which has nothing to do with saving faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

Some food for thought. We all look at the same Scriptures yet come away with different conclusions. This suggests that the real issue is in our methodology and the presuppositions we bring to the text. It's not really much different than the creation/evolution debate. You see, both sides look at the same evidence. One side see creation and the other evolution. Which side one falls on depends on their worldview and the presuppositions they bring to the evidence. The Scriptures don't speak, they don't say, hey, reader, you're misunderstanding me. We have to look at the text and interpret what it says and means. The presuppositions we bring to the text determine how we evaluate this evidence and the conclusions we come to.

It's not the methodology; it's the bias, which you call presuppositions. When one comes to Scripture with such presuppostions, they think verses are SAYING what they believe about their presuppositions, but the verses do not say that.

I've presented verses that actually say what my view is.

 

[Butch5]

lndeed and just one step further back who and what has decided which view we hold - twinc

That depends on one's history.

 

[JLB]

How many verses have you found that say that God justifies on the basis of obedience? Right, none.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


As plain as day the scripture clearly states it is the work of obedience, by which Abraham was Justified by God Himself.

The work of obedience that Abraham completed was to offer up Isaac as God commanded.

Abraham our father justified by works.... when he offered Isaac his son on the altar

The entire point of James 2:14-26 is about demonstrating our faith so others can see it. 2:18 is quite clear.

The entire point of James 2:14-23 is to show us that faith without the action of obedience is dead and worthless and can not save.

14. What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

It's not the methodology; it's the bias, which you call presuppositions. When one comes to Scripture with such presuppostions, they think verses are SAYING what they believe about their presuppositions, but the verses do not say that.

I've presented verses that actually say what my view is.

Presuppositions can be correct or they can be incorrect. According to your presuppositions you believe the passages say what your view is. Others look at the same passages and draw different conclusions. That shows that the methodology used to draw those conclusions is what we need to look at if these debates are ever to come to any kind of resolution.

 

[Jonathan]

(Post deleted. A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." You can not simply post any random scripture to comply with this. Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

And we're NOT justified on the basis of obedience. It's FAITH.

James point is: Is your faith dead or not.

Dead faith, is described by James as being without the work of obedience.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

The works that James is describing is obedience to what God commands you to do.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham was not justified when he decided to comply with God's command.

Abraham was not justified when he left his house and took Isaac with him to the Mount.

Abraham was not justified when he ascended Mount Moriah with Isaac.

Abraham was not justified when He gathered wood for the fire of burnt offering.

Abraham was not justified when he tied Isaac to the altar.

Abraham was justified when God Himself saw that Abraham stretched out his hand to slay his son before Him, in obedience to His command.

10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am."12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:10-12

The reason Abraham obeyed God, was that Abraham believed God, when He promised that -

4"As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. Genesis 17:4-6

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:23


The obedience of faith is what caused Abraham to be justified.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

[QUOTE="john darling, post: 1055712, member: 7650"
EPH 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are created to do good works; just don't boast about it as though you've done anything to earn God's free gift.[/QUOTE]
Eph 2:10 says that we are God's workmanship. How do you then say we are created to do good works? Those good works that we may accomplish do not justify our salvation, nor go towards earning salvation.

Salvation is of God and not the man being saved by God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God" (John 1:12-13 LITV).

To answer the OP - a person is not justified for salvation by his own works, not even in part; but alone by faith in Christ crucified and resurrected. Praise the LORD! Hallelujah!

 

[john darling]

And lack of works demonstrates a hypocrite. Those believers who don't demonstrate their faith before others will NOT BE SAVED from the charge of hypocrisy.

Hi freegrace. Earlier you said this and a lot of other stuff about hypocrisy. How is it that a hypocrite will be saved? Does the hypocrite need to stop being a hypocrite, or is there a circumstance where God has no choice but to give salvation to a hypocrite?

I ask, because earlier you suggested that repentance has nothing to do with salvation, either. You were very clear on that. So, in other words, a person does not need to repent of hypocrisy, or any number of other bad behaviors, and God will still give them eternal life. Can you please show us the teaching where God is forced to (or even will choose to) give his salvation to hypocrites despite their unwillingness to change?

See, I believe this is an area where Butch's comment about how we view the scriptures comes into play. You've said before that you don't interpret the scriptures; you only look at what they actually say. I believe this is a problem area for you. Because you don't interpret the scriptures, you don't see how they all fit together into a bigger picture. It sounds to me like you just have this list of verses with certain key words like "salvation" and "believe" which you post regardless of how they fit into the context of other verses which you are attempting to challenge, but because they contain the key words central to your argument you don't see a problem using them that way.

In answer to my question about about hypocrisy, you probably will produce some kind of verse which mentions salvation through belief, but because you don't interpret that verse (i.e. you only see the key words "salvation" and "belief") you're not able to put that verse along side other teachings about a need for repentance to see how they reconcile (Lk 13:5) instead of resulting in opposing views. As a result, you end up with a teaching where a person can be a self righteous, hypocritical, contrary-to-Gods-will kind of person, even unwilling to change, and still be guaranteed salvation on the basis of a few verses about how they "believe", completely independent of their behavior. This is not salvation through faith or belief. This is salvation through wishful thinking.

 

[john darling]

Hi freegrace, here is another example of the confusion you have over this issue, precisely because of your attempts to isolate belief, faith, love and obedience from one another. You can't do it without becoming irrational in your argument. For example:

Loving one's neighbor DOES demonstrate our faith.

The opposite is true as well. Refusing to show love to one's neighbor demonstrates a lack of faith. If we are saved by faith (which you've made abundantly clear that we are), then refusing to show love to our neighbor will result in no faith and no salvation.

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey me" and "those who obey me show that they love me" (John 14:21 , John 14:23). Loving your neighbor is a command. Doing so demonstrates faith in Jesus, but also love for Jesus. There is a clear connection between faith, love and obedience. You can't have one without the others. They are all expressions of one another. One will always lead to the other.

 

[FreeGrace]

That depends on one's history.

History should never determine truth. History generally screws truth up.

 

[FreeGrace]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

As plain as day the scripture clearly states it is the work of obedience, by which Abraham was Justified by God Himself.

The work of obedience that Abraham completed was to offer up Isaac as God commanded.

Abraham our father justified by works.... when he offered Isaac his son on the altar

The entire point of James 2:14-23 is to show us that faith without the action of obedience is dead and worthless and can not save.

14. What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.JLB

Please exegete James 2:15,16 and 18.

 

[FreeGrace]

Presuppositions can be correct or they can be incorrect. According to your presuppositions you believe the passages say what your view is.

No, the verses actually do SAY what my view IS.

Others look at the same passages and draw different conclusions.

Because of their presuppositions. And the FACT that they have NO verses that SAY what their view is.

In another forum, there was one Calvinist who finally had to admit that their doctrine of limited atonement was based on inference. That's quite a presupposition. And those who believe that salvation can be lost have the same problem.

 

[FreeGrace]

James point is: Is your faith dead or not.

Right. That's not the argument. But given the whole council of God, there are NO verses that say that one's salvation can be lost. In fact, the opposite is true; God's gift (charisma) of eternal life is irrevocable. But some people choose to reject that truth.

Dead faith, is described by James as being without the work of obedience.

Yes.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

The works that James is describing is obedience to what God commands you to do.

Yes, He does. But not for salvation, nor for continuing to have salvation, as some pre-suppose.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
Abraham was not justified when he decided to comply with God's command.
Abraham was not justified when he left his house and took Isaac with him to the Mount.
Abraham was not justified when he ascended Mount Moriah with Isaac.
Abraham was not justified when He gathered wood for the fire of burnt offering.
Abraham was not justified when he tied Isaac to the altar.
Abraham was justified when God Himself saw that Abraham stretched out his hand to slay his son before Him, in obedience to His command.

10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am."12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:10-12

The reason Abraham obeyed God, was that Abraham believed God, when He promised that -

4"As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. Genesis 17:4-6

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:23

The obedience of faith is what caused Abraham to be justified.JLB

The clear fact of Scripture is that God justifies the believer. It's really that simple. And your last sentence is incorrect. Our act of faith does NOT cause anything.

God does the justifying. And He justifies only believers. And WHEN they believe. There is nothing in Scripture to support your notion that one must have on-going faith in order to have on-going justification or salvation.

 

[JLB]

Yes, He does. But not for salvation, nor for continuing to have salvation, as some pre-suppose.

Are you saying faith for salvation is different.

James is absolutely teaching us that faith for salvation is exactly what he is referring to.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! James 2:19

Are demons saved? No.

nor for continuing to have salvation,

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? James 2:15-16

Compare with what Jesus said -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; Matthew 25:41-42


Both Jesus and his brother James teach us the same Kingdom principle.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Right. That's not the argument. But given the whole council of God, there are NO verses that say that one's salvation can be lost. In fact, the opposite is true; God's gift (charisma) of eternal life is irrevocable. But some people choose to reject that truth.

If you can show me a verse that says salvation can not be lost then please do so.

So far you have not.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The clear fact of Scripture is that God justifies the believer. It's really that simple. And your last sentence is incorrect. Our act of faith does NOT cause anything.

It the the work of the obedience of faith by which a person will be justified by God.

Just as it was the work of disobedience that caused sin to spread to all mankind and with it death.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi freegrace. Earlier you said this and a lot of other stuff about hypocrisy.

"Stuff"??? How about truth?

How is it that a hypocrite will be saved? Does the hypocrite need to stop being a hypocrite, or is there a circumstance where God has no choice but to give salvation to a hypocrite?

I just love these straw men setups. First, why would you even think that God might have 'no choice' in anything? Aren't you aware that God is omniscient? Therefore, He always knows what's coming, and cannot be "forced" in any choice of His.

Do you believe that a promise of God obligates Himself regarding that promise? Please answer this.

I ask, because earlier you suggested that repentance has nothing to do with salvation, either. You were very clear on that.

Were you as clear as to what kind of repentance I meant? It has been taken 2 ways. Literally, from the Greek, it means to "change the mind". That would apply to salvation, for everyone sinner must change their mind about their own sin, and what Christ did for them. If they don't, they cannot come to faith in Christ. But there is another sense of 'repentance', which is to "turn from sin". No one EVER goes to heaven because they turned from sin. Most people think of repentance as turning from sin. That's the context for my comments.

So, in other words, a person does not need to repent of hypocrisy, or any number of other bad behaviors, and God will still give them eternal life.

Does that bother you? Do you have any verses that say that eternal life is only for those who have given up "bad behaviors", have quit being a hypocrite, etc? In fact, you don't have any such verses. But what do we have?

Many verses that clearly link believing in Jesus Christ and obtaining eternal life. God is pleased to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21). God's will is that those who believe in Christ will have eternal life (Jn 6:40).

Can you please show us the teaching where God is forced to (or even will choose to) give his salvation to hypocrites despite their unwillingness to change?

I just explained it to you. The Bible tells us WHO God gives eternal life to, and it isn't based on behavior, but on faith in Christ.

Are all Christians free of hypocrisy? Of course not. But they are still saved. Are all Christians free of all sin? Of course not. But they are still saved.

Do you really believe the promises of God? It seems you don't. You're much more bothered by one's lifestyle than what one believes. Though the Bible's entire thrust for salvation is on faith in Christ.

See, I believe this is an area where Butch's comment about how we view the scriptures comes into play. You've said before that you don't interpret the scriptures; you only look at what they actually say. I believe this is a problem area for you.

It's never a problem to note what the verses actually SAY.

Because you don't interpret the scriptures, you don't see how they all fit together into a bigger picture.

You are quite incorrect here.

It sounds to me like you just have this list of verses with certain key words like "salvation" and "believe" which you post regardless of how they fit into the context of other verses which you are attempting to challenge, but because they contain the key words central to your argument you don't see a problem using them that way.

What you're basically saying is that I should ignore these "certain key words". Nonsense. I'm not looking at just key words, burt HOW they are LINKED in those verses. And in EVERY case, we read that salvation is BASED on faith in Christ. That's MUCH more than just finding 2 words in a verse. The word "believe" is directly linked to salvation in many verses.

The problem is on Butch's side. There are NO verses that say anything about loss of salvation. Oh, wait. There are a few. In fact, eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

What do you do with THAT fact? Accept it or reject it?

In answer to my question about about hypocrisy, you probably will produce some kind of verse which mentions salvation through belief, but because you don't interpret that verse (i.e. you only see the key words "salvation" and "belief") you're not able to put that verse along side other teachings about a need for repentance to see how they reconcile (Lk 13:5) instead of resulting in opposing views.

This is a total mischaracterization of my view and my methods. I have presented clear verses that directly link salvation and belief. They don't just appear together in a verse, as you are insinuating.

As a result, you end up with a teaching where a person can be a self righteous, hypocritical, contrary-to-Gods-will kind of person, even unwilling to change, and still be guaranteed salvation on the basis of a few verses about how they "believe", completely independent of their behavior.

First, there aren't just a "few verses" that directly link faith and salvation. There are MANY. And your side cannot provide ANY verse that teaches that salvation can be lost. So why do you persist in such an unbiblical idea?

This is not salvation through faith or belief. This is salvation through wishful thinking.

Here are some verses that directly link faith and salvation.

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I suppose the real "wishful thinking" is your wish for verses that actually SAY what you CLAIM. That would be real wishful thinking.

 

[quinntar]

This seems to be a really provocative thread title, but it really is just a quotation from Scripture.

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (ESV)

What is your take on this text? What does it mean?

It means you have to do something with your faith, not just sit on your belief all day and do nothing.