A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone

[Cturtle]

He can give his eternal life to anyone he wants or withhold it from anyone he wants...

Eternal life has already been spelled out by Jesus. He is the only way to receive eternal life (by Faith). So the choice is our's not God's. God is true to His Word. It does not change!

 

[john darling]

I went back because you never addressed it. Not from my questions anyway.

Sure I did. You just didn't see the answers I gave.

Now I know. My assumption was right, but I didn't see where you addressed is to me specifically.

See? One minute you say I never answered. The next you say you didn't see the answers. Because you didn't see the answers you assumed I did not answer. But the real question is, why didn't you see the answers? I suspect it's because you've got a bias in this area (the formula) that you can't see past. If someone suggests a perspective which falls outside the clearly defined lines of your formula, your ability to hear it switches off and you "don't see it".

Again, I'm not saying this to put you down. I'm explaining how I see this discussion from my perspective. I don't have perfect understanding of all truth so there will always be room in my conclusions for error, but as it is now, this is what I'm seeing.

You are probably right, I couldn't match wits with you and am pretty simple.

I never said anything like this. I said you deliberately chose to retreat to a simplistic argument (i.e. the formula) because you don't have answers to defend your formula on closer examination. That's not the same as being slow witted.

And I personally have answered your specific questions to many before you.

Really? You've answered the question "what is a practical example of a person being sincerely stubborn" many times? Because when I asked it the first time, your response was to say that you are sincerely stubborn. Of course that did not answer the question I was asking. I figured it was probably just a misunderstanding on your part, so I clarified by asking again, more specifically, and that's when you retreated back to leaning on the formula. Nope, no misunderstanding. You just didn't have an answer. Again, that's not you being slow witted, but it could be an example of stubbornness.

To be perfectly honest with ya, I knew that the simpleton charge was right around the corner

There never was any simpleton charge. You're using this "poor me" thing to deflect from the discussion. I don't believe you are a simpleton at all. The problem I see is that you are holding on to a religious formula with clearly defined lines. People inside the lines are good guys and people outside the lines are bad guys. The problem is that the lines you think are so clear really are NOT that clear. I believe that was demonstrated when we started talking about what it means to believe, in practical terms and according to the teachings of Jesus (i.e. obedience).

You suddenly realized the stability of your clearly drawn lines was being threatened so you retreated in to an impenetrable shell of, "I'm going to ask you a question which has only one right answer. If you don't give the right answer then I win". And of course, when I did not give the precise answer you wanted to hear you felt justified in ignoring everything else I said about belief and sincerity.

You made the claim that Jesus was "loose" with some of the ways and I did not see you explain any of these "loose" verses.

Well, that's why I wanted to talk about sincerity and get some examples from you to further clarify the context of my comments. But okay, fair enough. I didn't post any specific verses on the "loose" comment. I'll do so now.

LK 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

LK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

The guy casting out devils chose not to follow along with the disciples. They must have talked to him. Otherwise how else would they be able to say, "he did not follow with us". It makes no sense, in the context that they would see this guy casting out devils, then claim he would not follow with them, if they didn't talk to him and suggest that he should follow with them. They are catchers of men, after all. And yet, despite the guy not following them, the apostles, Jesus' hand-picked leaders, Jesus still said, "he who is not against me, is for me".

To me, that sounds like a teaching which relies fairly heavily on the sincerity of the individual. I'm not saying the standards of God do not apply to these kinds of people, but rather that God is able to work with them in ways which often fall outside of our personal standards of what a relationship with God should be.

I believe it is a symptom of spiritual blindness that causes us to declare that God can only interact with people according to how we understand him.

 

[john darling]

Actually to me the words demonstrate and proves mean the same thing.

Of course. I just searched a dictionary for both words and two out of three of the explanations given were exactly the same for both words.

To argue that they don't mean the same thing for the sake of proving a religious formula, I would call that an example of INsincerity.

 

[john darling]

Human nature is corrupt[Eph.4:22] and cannot please God[Rom.8: 7-8]- also see Rmns.4 and 5 - twinc

Hi twinc. Those verses don't say anything about "hellish good works".

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"One is saved by faith alone. In fact, it is "not of works, lest any man should boast", per Eph 2:9. Works are excluded."

This is a pretty good example of how we interpret or choose to believe what we want to believe, whether right or wrong. Sometimes we interpret correctly and sometimes we don't.

My comment is directly and clearly supported from Scripture. I even cited the verse. But, as always, people are free to accept or reject whatever they are inclined to.

Paul was not excluding works from the equation. He was giving a warning against becoming proud about good works.

The phrase "not of works" is a very clear statement that we are saved through faith, and NOT of works.

People usually leave off verse 10 when they want the verses to conform with their personal theory. Here's the full thought:
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

EPH 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

EPH 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are created to do good works; just don't boast about it as though you've done anything to earn God's free gift.

We (believers) are created to do good works. But that says nothing about being saved by works. I think you are greatly misreading Scripture.

Let's back up to Eph 1:4, and the purpose for which God chooses believers: to be holy and blameless. iow, for good works. That's what being "holy and blameless" means.

Or, consider 1 Cor 1:2 which says we are "called to be holy". Again, same principle.

 

[FreeGrace]

Freegrace, can you please clarify what you mean by "moral" in the context of Jesus' teachings and what it means to believe?

Unbelievers can show love to their fellow man, and be kind to one another. And not commit crimes, etc.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is another area where your interpretations of scripture seem to be based more on conforming them to your theory rather than conforming your theory to what the verses actually say.

Scripture backs up my view. Eph 2:8-10 is clear enough, and has been explained enough. It's up to you to understand it or not. We are saved by grace, through faith, and NOT of works. And we are saved FOR good works. Not BY good works, as your view seems to be.

Proper reading of Scripture goes a long way in understanding Scripture.

Here you make a connection between obedience and believe, because you think it suits your argument to do so.

Not at all. I am informed by Greek definitions. Consider Jn 3:36 - 6“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The word for "does not obey" is: apeitheō
1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with

Any more questions?

But at other times you clearly dismiss any connection between obedience and belief. You talk about obedience and good works as though they are two completely different things, but they are not.

Because they are NOT connected. Faith and works have no causal linkage, though it seems you think so. James' whole point in ch 2 was that believers are to demonstrate their faith to others, so that they will be justified in the eyes of others. Otherwise, they will be seen as hypocrites, or NOT justified in the eyes of others regarding their faith.

When we talk about obedience, the context is obedience to Jesus, and Jesus told us to love our neighbor (i.e. good works).

Unbelievers can love their neighbors as well. And no one goes to heaven for loving their neighbor.

 

[FreeGrace]

...not by faith only.

Context, my friend. The justification mentioned by James is in the eyes of others, which is why he gave the example of the gross hypocrite in 2:15,16.

And further explained in 2:18. iow, it is impossible to demonstrate one's faith without works. That's exactly what v.18 says.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually to me the words demonstrate and proves mean the same thing.

However, unbelievers can demonstrate better moral living, etc than believers. Yet, that does not prove that they are Christians.

 

[chessman]

Abraham was justified, [declared to be right with God], because he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac on the altar.

JLB

You are confused relative to what for (and when) Abraham was declared righteous by God:

James 2:23 (LEB) And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend." ​

Notice, James says Abraham "believed" God and it what was credited to him as righteousness.

And James follows the A&T guidelines by quoting Gen 15:6
to prove his point:

Genesis 15:6 (LEB) And he [Abram] believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. ​

Also notice your confusion on when Abram was declared righteous per Scripture's accounting. Gen 15:6 (Abram is reckoned as righteous by God because Abram believed in God) occurs prior to Isaac's birth.

Do you think (and teach) that people must offer their children on an altar to be declared right with God?

Would people's righteousness be justified in your sight if they did offer their child on an altar?

 

[JLB]

You are confused relative to what for (and when) Abraham was declared righteous by God:

James 2:23 (LEB) And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend."
Notice, James says Abraham "believed" God and it what was credited to him as righteousness.

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:20-23

James points out that believing without the action of obedience is worthless; dead.

James says: faith was working... Faith was working together with the works. Faith was working together with the action of obedience, and by obedience, faith was made complete.

James describes the work of believing as faith working together with the action of obedience.

James lays out for us what biblical "believing" is. Biblical "believing" is faith with the action of obedience to God.

James teaches us that Abraham was justified by the work of obedience, not by faith alone.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:20


JLB

 

[JLB]

Context, my friend. The justification mentioned by James is in the eyes of others, which is why he gave the example of the gross hypocrite in 2:15,16.

And further explained in 2:18. iow, it is impossible to demonstrate one's faith without works. That's exactly what v.18 says.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23


Abraham was justified by the work of obedience.

Faith alone, without the work of obedience is dead.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:41-42

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? James 2:15-16

James, echoing the words of Jesus, teaches us that a person who has faith, and does not have the action of obedience, which deprives one of God's children of a daily essential, then their faith is dead.

On the day of Judgment, Jesus will speak these words to those who ignored Him and allowed His people to be destitute of daily provision, when it was in their power to give and obey:-

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food.


JLB

 

[twinc]

imho - after all that has been written imho I mostly align with what 'free grace' has written but I would here like to point out that here, as also elsewhere, that all that is written is written so that we may simply believe[Jn.20:31] but this as Jesus informs us is simply simply impossible for most adults [with itching ears etc] - twinc

 

[FreeGrace]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

Abraham was justified by the work of obedience.

In the eyes of others, not in the eyes of God. God is omniscient and doesn't need to see one's works. It's others who can't see one's faith, and so need to see works which justifies the person's claimed faith.

Faith alone, without the work of obedience is dead.

And James 2:18 explains WHY that is. But a dead faith doesn't equate with loss of salvation. Why? Because God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable, and eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God.

I will not allow you to ignore or forget that Biblical principle.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:41-42

These never believed, and therefore, never received the gift (charisma) of God.

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? James 2:15-16

James, echoing the words of Jesus, teaches us that a person who has faith, and does not have the action of obedience, which deprives one of God's children of a daily essential, then their faith is dead.

Actually, his point goes a bit further. His point is that the example of the deedless man of faith in v.15-16 is a hypocrite in the eyes of those who were hungry or cold. That hypocrite was NOT justified in the eyes of the cold and hungry if treated the way that hypocrite did.

On the day of Judgment, Jesus will speak these words to those who ignored Him and allowed His people to be destitute of daily provision, when it was in their power to give and obey:-
'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food.
JLB

He will say that to those who never believed, and therefore, never received the gift (charisma) of eternal life, which is irrevocable. Remember?

 

[john darling]

James, echoing the words of Jesus, teaches us that a person who has faith, and does not have the action of obedience, which deprives one of God's children of a daily essential, then their faith is dead.

On the day of Judgment, Jesus will speak these words to those who ignored Him and allowed His people to be destitute of daily provision, when it was in their power to give and obey:-

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food.

God is a good God so it makes sense that he'd also want us to be good. Jesus made that clear is so many of his teachings. I'm glad to see others supporting Jesus' teachings.

 

[john darling]

Hi Freegrace. What is see in your posts is a lot of confusion, which appears to come as a result of you trying too hard to put love, faith, belief, and obedience into their separate little boxes for the sake of propping up your theories.

We are saved by grace through faith.

Those who have put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life are saved.

I already know who he is pleased to give salvation to: those who believe

The only condition for receiving eternal life is faith in Christ.

Those who have eternal life are saved, and those who are saved have eternal life. And both are received by faith in Christ.

Ok so it's pretty clear you believe we're saved through faith and belief, or perhaps you think the two are the same, but either way, we're saved through at least one of these two, and that's it. Nothing else aside from faith or belief will result in salvation. That in itself isn't a problem, except when you try to say that things like love and obedience are separate from faith and belief.

Below, I've posted a list of quotes from you to show the contradictions.

Believing and loving are different things.

Freegrace implies that love will not cause God to want to offer us his free gift, even though Jesus said that love constitutes the two most important things God wants from us in this life. According to this quote, showing love for God or our neighbor is different from belief in God. This is not consistent with what Jesus taught. Check out the good Samaritan parable as evidence (Luke 10).

Faith doesn't cause works in any way..

The "works" he refers to here is showing love to one's neighbor. Freegrace views loving our neighbor as a "work" and therefor does not show faith in God.

I did because faith IS about truth, not about obedience.

According to this quote, faith is about truth, which is not about obedience. It may be that freegrace himself does not understand the implication here, but I think that would be consistent with the confusion I see in his posts. He has used logic here which necessarily separates truth from obedience. If faith is about truth, and faith is not about obedience, then truth will also not be about obedience.

And yet, Jesus said "IF you continue in my words, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free". Clearly there is a connection here between obedience (i.e. continue in my words) and truth, which makes sense. If we follow Jesus' teachings, we will learn more truth and our faith will grow as well.

No one provided any link or evidence between obedience and belief. None of these verses teach that faith will result in works.

Both JLB and I provided evidence showing this link, but at the time freegrace ignored that evidence in favor of certainty that there was no link. Strangely enough he now says this:

I am informed by Greek definitions. Consider Jn 3:36 - 6“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The word for "does not obey" is: apeitheō
1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with

Any more questions?

It seems like he's making some kind of powerful statement here, which he is, but he doesn't seem to understand that it undermines everything else he has said so far. The explanation clearly makes a solid link between belief and obedience, the same link he stubbornly argued is not there.

Love, faith, belief, obedience; they are all intimately linked. They all serve their purpose but they still overlap and work together so intimately that you can't take one out of the equation or separate them into their little individual boxes without distorting the others.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Freegrace. What is see in your posts is a lot of confusion, which appears to come as a result of you trying too hard to put love, faith, belief, and obedience into their separate little boxes for the sake of propping up your theories.

OK, let's try to unpack all this stuff. If I am confused, please be clear and specific as to exactly how I am.

Second, I've provided verses that clearly back up my views, so please don't use the word "theories". If the verses I have cited don't back up my views, it is encumbent upon you to explain clearly how they don't.

That's how to properly respond to another's post.

Ok so it's pretty clear you believe we're saved through faith and belief, or perhaps you think the two are the same, but either way, we're saved through at least one of these two, and that's it. Nothing else aside from faith or belief will result in salvation. That in itself isn't a problem, except when you try to say that things like love and obedience are separate from faith and belief.

Based on the fact that no verse links love to salvation. All verses about salvation mention believing in Christ. Further, the command to love God and Christ are to believers, not to unbelievers to get them saved.

Below, I've posted a list of quotes from you to show the contradictions.

"Believing and loving are different things."​

Freegrace implies that love will not cause God to want to offer us his free gift, even though Jesus said that love constitutes the two most important things God wants from us in this life.

The offer is to everyone, so your opinion is irrelevant to Scripture.

According to this quote, showing love for God or our neighbor is different from belief in God.

Please show me any verse that equates the 2.

This is not consistent with what Jesus taught. Check out the good Samaritan parable as evidence (Luke 10).

What isn't consistent with what Jesus taught? Where did Jesus equate believing and loving? Or loving as the method of getting saved?

I said this:
"Faith doesn't cause works in any way.."

The "works" he refers to here is showing love to one's neighbor. Freegrace views loving our neighbor as a "work" and therefor does not show faith in God.

Your comment demonstrates that you totally misunderstood what I posted. The point is that faith doesn't cause works, and you ignored or missed that point. Loving one's neighbor DOES demonstrate our faith.

I said this:
"I did because faith IS about truth, not about obedience."

According to this quote, faith is about truth, which is not about obedience.

Because faith IS about truth. Jesus is the Truth, and all faith must be in Him. Please show me any verse that says that one is saved through obedience. There aren't any. Eph 2:8,9 refutes your opinion.

It may be that freegrace himself does not understand the implication here, but I think that would be consistent with the confusion I see in his posts.

Your responses demonstrate that you have failed to undestand my posts. So any confusion you see is only your misunderstanding.

He has used logic here which necessarily separates truth from obedience. If faith is about truth, and faith is not about obedience, then truth will also not be about obedience.

Just to clarify for you, truth relates to facts (reality) and obedience relates to actions. Some actions are based on unreality, such as is seen in those high on LSD, etc. Their actions are not based in reality. Again, you have confused faith with obedience, yet you have not proven your claim from Scripture.

And yet, Jesus said "IF you continue in my words, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free". Clearly there is a connection here between obedience (i.e. continue in my words) and truth, which makes sense. If we follow Jesus' teachings, we will learn more truth and our faith will grow as well.

I never said there wasn't a connection between the 2. I said they aren't the same, which seems to be your view.

I said this:
"No one provided any link or evidence between obedience and belief. None of these verses teach that faith will result in works."

Both JLB and I provided evidence showing this link, but at the time freegrace ignored that evidence in favor of certainty that there was no link.

LJB has made a lot of claims about his "evidence" that doesn't actually exist. But again, my point has been that faith and obedience are NOT the same, nor is either one causal of the other one. Of course they may be linked. I never said otherwise.

Strangely enough he now says this: ……..

It seems like he's making some kind of powerful statement here, which he is, but he doesn't seem to understand that it undermines everything else he has said so far. The explanation clearly makes a solid link between belief and obedience, the same link he stubbornly argued is not there.

I never said there wasn't any link. I SAID they aren't equated, nor is there any causal action between the 2.

Seems you've decided to create a straw man here.

Love, faith, belief, obedience; they are all intimately linked. They all serve their purpose but they still overlap and work together so intimately that you can't take one out of the equation or separate them into their little individual boxes without distorting the others.

Yes, they all do serve their purpose. But ONLY faith will save. Love and obedience are commanded for the saved person, the believer; never the unbeliever for salvation.

 

[JLB]

In the eyes of others, not in the eyes of God. God is omniscient and doesn't need to see one's works. It's others who can't see one's faith, and so need to see works which justifies the person's claimed faith.

It is God who justifies, not man.

Who were the others that "saw" the work of Abraham offering up Isaac?

Our obedience does not need to be seen by others for God to justify us.

People go about the work of obeying God every day without anyone observing their obedience.

We are not to do our works before men, but in secret before God.

The scripture is clear.

Faith without the action of Obedoence is dead.

Even the demons believe, and they fear and tremble.

JLB

 

[twinc]

so then when all is said and done and all else fails, why not just simply simply believe as we are requested, required and commanded to do or is that too difficult and almost impossible unless we simply simply do so for all that is written is written just to tell us and inform us to just simply simply do so[Jn.20:31] - twinc

 

[Butch5]

Some food for thought. We all look at the same Scriptures yet come away with different conclusions. This suggests that the real issue is in our methodology and the presuppositions we bring to the text. It's not really much different than the creation/evolution debate. You see, both sides look at the same evidence. One side see creation and the other evolution. Which side one falls on depends on their worldview and the presuppositions they bring to the evidence. The Scriptures don't speak, they don't say, hey, reader, you're misunderstanding me. We have to look at the text and interpret what it says and means. The presuppositions we bring to the text determine how we evaluate this evidence and the conclusions we come to.