A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone

[FreeGrace]

Hi freegrace, here is another example of the confusion you have over this issue, precisely because of your attempts to isolate belief, faith, love and obedience from one another. You can't do it without becoming irrational in your argument. For example, you said:
"Loving one's neighbor DOES demonstrate our faith."

The opposite is true as well. Refusing to show love to one's neighbor demonstrates a lack of faith.

I would say that not loving one's neighbor does not demonstrate your faith. You seem to forget that James' challenge in 2:18 was how one can demonstrate their faith without works.

If we are saved by faith (which you've made abundantly clear that we are), then refusing to show love to our neighbor will result in no faith and no salvation.

WHAT?? No, it shows disobedience on the part of one of God's children, and that child will be subject to God's discipline per Heb 12.

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey me" and "those who obey me show that they love me" (John 14:21 , John 14:23). Loving your neighbor is a command. Doing so demonstrates faith in Jesus, but also love for Jesus. There is a clear connection between faith, love and obedience. You can't have one without the others. They are all expressions of one another. One will always lead to the other.

Your last sentence is a non sequitor. They are not causally linked, and there are no verses that make that statement.

If they were causally linked, there would be NO NEED for the command to love one another. The existence of the command proves that they aren't causally linked.

 

[JLB]

God does the justifying. And He justifies only believers. And WHEN they believe.

When they obey is when they believe.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Paul teaches us who will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus returns -

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:8

Obedience is the only thing that will cause a person to be justified.in the sight of God; obedience to His Word.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you saying faith for salvation is different.

Please clarify your context here. Different than what?

James is absolutely teaching us that faith for salvation is exactly what he is referring to.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! James 2:19

Are demons saved? No.

You've done a great job of conflating things. James' point is about hypocrisy, as shown in 2:15,16. The example is clearly about the hypocrite who doesn't back up what he says with actions. It isn't about a saved vs an unsaved person.

And v.18 clarifies the issue. The challenge is how one can demonstrate their faith (to others) apart from works. The point is that it is impossible to demonstrate our faith apart from works.

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? James 2:15-16

Uh, before we compare, what is the point here? Hypocrisy. Not acting on what is said.

Compare with what Jesus said -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; Matthew 25:41-42

Your skill in conflating unrelated verses is amazing!

Both Jesus and his brother James teach us the same Kingdom principle.JLB

So you think getting to heaven is based on feeding the poor, huh? So do all the far left liberal denominations in the US.

To try to link Matt 25 with James 2 only shows how much you do not understand either passage.

 

[JLB]

WHAT?? No, it shows disobedience on the part of one of God's children, and that child will be subject to God's discipline per Heb 12.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
for I was hungry and you gave Me no food... Matthew 25:41-42

Because I was hungry and you gave me no food.

Sounds like a little more than discipline.

I see why you never post scripture, because you just expect everyone to believe what you write as opinion.

It doesn't work that way.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

If you can show me a verse that says salvation can not be lost then please do so.

I have, and you have repeatedly ignored or rejected the facts.

Eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God, per Rom 6:23, and God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. The connection is so obvious as to be totally unambiguous, yet you just won't have any part of it.

So far you have not.

This statement is a flat untruth. And you know better.

What you have failed to do is show from any context within Romans that Paul didn't mean to include eternal life when he wrote 11:29.

The reason you have failed is because you cannot do it.

God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. That is the truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

It the the work of the obedience of faith by which a person will be justified by God.

Where is the unambiguous verse that backs up your claim? There aren't any. The truth of Scripture is that we are justified by FAITH, not obedience.

 

[JLB]

Where is the unambiguous verse that backs up your claim? There aren't any. The truth of Scripture is that we are justified by FAITH, not obedience.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?


Abraham was not justified when he decided to comply with God's command.
Abraham was not justified when he left his house and took Isaac with him to the Mount.
Abraham was not justified when he ascended Mount Moriah with Isaac.
Abraham was not justified when He gathered wood for the fire of burnt offering.
Abraham was not justified when he tied Isaac to the altar.

Abraham was justified when God Himself saw that Abraham stretched out his hand to slay his son before Him, in obedience to His command.

10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am."12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:10-12


JLB

 

[quinntar]

(Post removed, Violation of A&T Guidelines. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

I have, and you have repeatedly ignored or rejected the facts.

Eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God, per Rom 6:23, and God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. The connection is so obvious as to be totally unambiguous, yet you just won't have any part of it.

This is your opinion with a scripture reference attached to it.

This is not a scripture.

The reason you won't post the scripture, is the actual scripture does not mention that eternal life can not be lost.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

When they obey is when they believe.

To "obey the gospel" means to believe the gospel. But you've conflated the idea of obeying many other commands as necessary for salvation. You've included works in your view of salvation; therefore your view is a works salvation, which was thoroughly refuted by Paul in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

Paul teaches us who will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus returns -

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:8

As I said, to "obey the gospel" means to believe the gospel. Not obey all the commands of Scripture. Your view reminds me of the Pharisee's view of salvation. Keep the law for eternal life.

Obedience is the only thing that will cause a person to be justified.in the sight of God; obedience to His Word.

And you have zero support for that Pharisee-styled view in Scripture.

This is what Jesus told the Pharisees:
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. John 5

 

[JLB]

It means you have to do something with your faith, not just sit on your belief all day and do nothing.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see why you never post scripture, because you just expect everyone to believe what you write as opinion.

So I "never post Scripture", huh. I wish the mods would remove such blatant untruths. I've posted many verses that you have rejected.

 

[FreeGrace]

(Post removed, response to deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I have, and you have repeatedly ignored or rejected the facts.

Eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God, per Rom 6:23, and God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. The connection is so obvious as to be totally unambiguous, yet you just won't have any part of it."

This is your opinion with a scripture reference attached to it.

Yet, you claimed that I never post Scripture. Thanks for admitting your untruth.

This is not a scripture.

Uh, Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 are not Scripture? I guess that's why you've repeatedly rejected them. You don't consider them to be Scripture. How odd.

 

[Butch5]

History should never determine truth. History generally screws truth up.

I said one's history. What one has learned in the past will determine how they approach the Scriptures

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"History should never determine truth. History generally screws truth up."

I said one's history. What one has learned in the past will determine how they approach the Scriptures

I will clarify: One's history should never determine truth. One's history generally screws truth up.

 

[Butch5]

No, the verses actually do SAY what my view IS.


Because of their presuppositions. And the FACT that they have NO verses that SAY what their view is.

In another forum, there was one Calvinist who finally had to admit that their doctrine of limited atonement was based on inference. That's quite a presupposition. And those who believe that salvation can be lost have the same problem.

The point was that we all bring them to the text. Unless we are willing to look at them these debates will continue. It is presuppositions that are behind the debates. The Scriptures are the same for everyone, how they're interpreted is based on one's presuppositions. Just like the OSAS statement you made, it's what we bring to the text. If you want to continue this we should start a new thread as this is off topic and it is DI's thread.

 

[JLB]

To "obey the gospel" means to believe the gospel. But you've conflated the idea of obeying many other commands as necessary for salvation. You've included works in your view of salvation; therefore your view is a works salvation, which was thoroughly refuted by Paul in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

The Gospel I believe is an Obedience Gospel.

The works Gospel that Paul condemned was a "works of the law Gospel".

If you were to post the actual scripture, then that would be clear.

You however, continue to post your opinion, and attach a scripture reference to it.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

It is the work of the obedience of faith, that James teaches, not the works of the law.

But now is made manifest , and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

 

[JLB]

To "obey the gospel" means to believe the gospel.

To obey the Gospel means you obey what the Gospel message says.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17

and again -

I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3

If a persons believes the Gospel and receives it with joy, but doesn't repent, turn away from serving Satan and his kingdom, then they have not obeyed the Gospel Message, and will perish.

The "Believing" of that day, carried the idea of commit and trust as well as obey.

Unbelief means to disobey.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The point was that we all bring them to the text.

What I bring are verses that actually do SAY what I believe. Unlike so many others, who have to make suppositions about verses that do not actually SAY what they believe.

For example, what verse actually says that salvation can be lost? None. But I've provided verses that teach that eternal life is a gift of God, (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29), yet many simply reject those 2 verses. Apparently they think that those verses don't really mean what they SAY.

Unless we are willing to look at them these debates will continue. It is presuppositions that are behind the debates.

Of course, as I've just noted.

The Scriptures are the same for everyone, how they're interpreted is based on one's presuppositions.

Yep.

Just like the OSAS statement you made, it's what we bring to the text.

Wrong. Eternal life IS a gift of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable. Did you know that the Greek word for "gift" is the SAME in 6:23 and 11:29? That is NOT presupposition. That is FACT. But some don't like that FACT, so they either deny or ignore or reject that FACT.