A question for those who claim tongues for today.

[Dave...]

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.......

How do you do this while pursueing love?

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

How do you do this without being a clanging cymbal?

4 Love...5 does not seek its own...;

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

How do you do this and edify the Church?

12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

How do you do this with complete understanding?

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

It doesn't add up. I believe this is the false gift, the Pagan tongues that was common in that time. If you allow for false tongues today, why wouldn't you also allow for false tongues at that time when they were common? The true gift of tongues was a miraculous gift. If the true gift was being exersized at Corinth before Paul got to them, then the Holy Spirit was manifesting Himself at the wrong place, at the wrong time, through the wrong people. Look at the list of sin that is documented in 1 Corinthians that I gave in a previous post. The term "to Corinthianize" at that time meant to live in sexual immorality. Pagan tongues were common. The word for tongues was being used long before Paul wrote this letter to describe Pagan tongues. This was the Corinth of that time, which is why Paul starts with this in chapter 12.

12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.

 

[Henry]

Eve

Once again Henry, You have lacked understand in the diffrence between the GIFT of tongues and the prayer tongue you receive when you are baptised into the Holy Ghost.

LOL no I understand that Onenes doctrine in this matter just fine, I used to teach it. You forget I was being trained to be a Oneness preacher at one time.

The problem is that what Oneness doctrine teaches is wrong! You see it is a round about way they excuse a doctrine. Since they teach the doctrine that one must speak in tongues to prove they are baptized in the Holy Spirit and there is no real biblical support they have to do this.

1. Presume that becuase it seemed to have happened a few times in acts, then it MUST be the norm.

2. Since there is no mention of the tongues in any of Pauls writings are concerning this evidence thing, they invent kinds of tounues to explain the lack. So, they say "Well Paul did was talking about that and not this"

Never the less, the entire point that you missed was that Paul was not a big fan of tongues in the first place. As you implied when you quoted him as saying "I wish that all of you would speak in tongues"

Maybe someday......you will get it Henry but until you do, I don't think you will understand what I have just said.[/qoute]

You are funny, I understand what you said just fine. I just so happen to know that you are wrong. Been there and done that, and thank God got out of it.

[quote:b315c]You must be open to recieve the Baptisim of the Holy Ghost and you are not open to that because you think you have all the truth.

Oh brother, you know my heart now? You get to judge me and my walk with God now? Boy if I even came close to that with you, I would be called ten names before you took a breath.

Again, it is not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that I have a problem with, it is th false teaching of the Oneness church about it that I take issue with. You really think that I am saying the bible is wrong, but I am not. I am saying you are wrong about the bible.

Oh, and what is with you and this bit lately about me thinking I have all truth. Never said that I did, you are just being rude dear. It is just a way to insult me and make your self feel batter at the same time.

Someday I pray you will soften that heart and that stiff back and understand. Until then, you will be in my prayers.

[/quote:b315c]

Oh judging me again, I have a stiff back and hard heart? Hmmm becuase I do not agree with you I must be hard hearted?

You see, what really gets you is that I used to beleive the same way that you do. And I left that beleif, turing to the historic doctrines that you hate so much. And you can not understand how that possible could have came to be.

Lets see, I had to be bitter about a bad experience, then it was that I never really understood, then it was that I never received the Holy Spirit, then it was that I was deceived by trinitarians, and now it is becuase I am hard hearted and stiff necked.

Sorry, but here is the reason that I learned that Oneness Doctrine was false and left that false teaching. Ready here it is THE BIBLE !

Job


thank you buddy, it is nice to see that someone understands the plight that I have here. And you are right they never NEVER NEVER address or refute anything that I say directly, always just trying to attack my character which only so they can justify hating me.

You see since I was in the Oneness Church and left, they have to make me out be a monster, that way they can hate a monster. And not listen to what I am saying.

 

[Eve777]

stiff necked.

Why Henry, Love, I never said you were stiff necked. But maybe God is trying to tell you something here...



Jer 17:23
But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.

Ps 75:5
Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck

De 31:27
For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?

 

[Free]

Job,

It doesn't add up. I believe this is the false gift, the Pagan tongues that was common in that time.

Your position doesn't add up; I can't even see how you can come to such a conclusion. You are going far beyond what the text says.

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.
1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

First, Paul never once mentions that this gift of tongues in the Corinthian church is false. Second, he encourages them to "earnestly desire the spiritual gifts," and then goes right into talking about tongues and prophecy. This obviously means that tongues are to be desired, just not above prophecy. Third, if tongues edifies the speaker who is speaking to God "mysteries in the Spirit," how can it be false? Fourth, why would Paul want them all to speak in tongues and even be thankful that he speaks "in tongues more than all of you," if it was a false gift?

There is absolutely no reason to believe that tongues was a false gift; all the evidence points to quite the opposite. Paul was addressing the abuse of this gift, not stating that it was false.

 

[Lorinb]

I just stumbled across this board and topic accidently. I was really interested because, as a person who believes that the Holy Ghost is evidenced by speaking in tongues, I've had this conversation many times. Like most debates, there is never any clear conclusion, and rarely any opinions changed.

My question, though, is this: even if a Christian doesn't believe that speaking in tongues is a part of the plan of salvation, wouldn't you still want to experience it anyway?

 

[Henry]

Eve

Why Henry, Love, I never said you were stiff necked. But maybe God is trying to tell you something here...

I knew when I re read what I wrote I had said neck instead of back as you have written. You will take any crumb you can to attack me. Sorry, just a boo boo God is not telling me anything, I just made a mistake.

Just sad that you still keep using the Bible as a wepon though. It is not yours to beat me with you know, I try and try to show you the greater context of the bible, and you just keep picking through and using what ever you can get you hands on to attack me.

But that is just what I expect from Oneness people, they never actually address any issues, just attack the messenger and kill them instead. I have not respect at all for Oneness teachers and the doctrines of the Oneness Church are nothing short of a mockery of the word of God.

Sad.

Free

I think I would agree that the tongue we here in Churches today are much more related to pagan things, then what Paul was talking about.

Here is the thing that just does not seem to get accross, the tongues we hear in the average church today are NOT NOT NOT the tongues that Paul was talking about at all.

No problem with the bible, BIG problem with the mislead teachings about the things of the Bible.

 

[Dave...]

Hi Lorin

My question, though, is this: even if a Christian doesn't believe that speaking in tongues is a part of the plan of salvation, wouldn't you still want to experience it anyway?

That would bring us back to my first question in my first post, which is what would be the point, since we have better, more profitible ways.

Free

You're missing the point. When anyone used the gift of tongues to serve themselves they have become a clanging cymbal. The true gift cannot work that way. Those who have love don't do those things. Paul tells us to strive for the opposite. Why do you continue to ignore the scripture that I post?

I'm not sure what translation you are using, but it clearly has an agenda. There is a big difference between the implications of "I wish" and "I want" in verse five. Also you have found a translation that uses a capitol "S" in verse two for spirit. Congratulations.


Here is the verse you keep quoting.


1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.


Here is what Paul tells us we should do.


1Cor.14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.


Now, lets break it down.


1Cor.14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.


We should seek to edify the church.


Which one does Paul want us to do, A or B?

A) 1Co 14:4A The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself....

B) 1Cor. 14:4B but the one who prophesies builds up the church.


Here is another verse you use.


1Cor. 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Remember, we should seek to edify the church.

Which one does Paul want us to do, A or B?

A) 1Cor. 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

B) 1Cor.14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.



1Cor.14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

We should seek to edify the church.

1Cor.14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

We should seek understanding.

1Cor.14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

We should pursue love. (Which is not self seeking.)


We should seek to edify the church.
We should seek understanding.
We should pursue love.

 

[Lorinb]

The Bible actually never says that each person can have one gift and one gift only. For instance, it is often the case during the administering of the gifts of the Spirit that the speaker of tongues is also the interpreter.

I think that if I walked blindly, as a non-Christian or as a Christian who does not believe in tongues, into a church or a prayer meeting, and I heard someone speaking in tongues, that's what I would want to experience the most--the gift of speaking the very words of God in a language that even I didn't understand and knowing that God was that close to me in that moment.

As a believer, however, I can only agree with Paul, "I thank my God, I speak in tongues (more than ye all)." Of course, he went on to say, "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding," signifying the difference in speaking on tongues in personal prayer and the gift of tongues in church.

If speaking in tongues is not the outward sign of receiving the Holy Ghost, then what proof, outside of merely believing, confirms that you have received the Holy Ghost?

 

[Henry]

What gets me the most here, other then the way the bible is so misused in the matter of tongues, is that no ones questions just what tongues are. It is assumed that they are what we hear today in churches, doesn't even one person wonder if the Bible tongues and the tongues of today are not even the same thing.


Come on, tongues today are silly bable they simply do not match the biblical tongues at all. It is sad that nonesence bable is being taken as spiritual.

 

[Free]

Job,

The version I used for that was the ESV, but it doesn't matter, my points still stand if I use the NASB.

The true gift cannot work that way. Those who have love don't do those things. Paul tells us to strive for the opposite. Why do you continue to ignore the scripture that I post?

You are starting with the assumption that the gift is false, that the "true" gift doesn't work that way, and then using the Scriptures about love to try and prove it. But that is wrong.

The letter to the Corinthians starts out with Paul mentioning the divisions in the church. Chapter 12 then introduces the spiritual gifts and finishes with Paul mentioning that there are different parts in the one body, each doing what they are gifted to do and not looking down on others:

1 Cor. 12:25-27, "25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it."

He then goes right into stating which are the most important gifts and asks several rhetorical questions that impy that not everyone has the same gifts:

12:28-31, "28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way."

Chapter 13 is obviously about love, where Paul uses 4 particular gifts which, when used without love, are useless. Chapter 14 verse 1 restates 12:31:

"1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."

Chapter 14 is all about order in the church in the ways the gifts are exercised, particularly that they should be used in a way that edifies the body. He also mentions that prophecy is greater than tongues. Also, notice how Paul ends the discussion on gifts:

14:39-40, "39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner."

When you put everything together and look at it in context, Paul is clearly talking about the abuse and misuse of the gift of tongues. It was held higher than prophecy, likely to the point where no one was being edified. Never once does Paul state or even imply that the gift of tongues was false.

From the beginning of chapter 14 to the end Paul talks about the proper use of tonuges (that it must be interpreted to edify the body), that if it isn't interpreted it only edifies the self. He not only encourages them to seek the gifts, Paul also states that he wished they all spoke in tongues and that they should not forbid speaking in tongues.

Note also that Paul says he speaks in tongues more than all of them but that he would rather speak 5 intelligible than 10,000 words in tongues. Where do you think Paul spoke in tongues then if it wasn't in church?

I'm not sure what translation you are using, but it clearly has an agenda.

:-? No, there is no agenda. That is just how the translators interpreted it.

There is a big difference between the implications of "I wish" and "I want" in verse five.

The language is closer than you think, but it is irrelevant to my point anyway. The point is that Paul desired them to all speak in tongues.

KJV - "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied"

NASB - "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy"

NIV - "I would like everyone of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy."

Also you have found a translation that uses a capitol "S" in verse two for spirit. Congratulations.

Who cares? I did not intentionally look for a translation that did that. And again, it is irrelevant to the point being made. The point is that one is speaking mysteries to God, whether it is by the Spirit, or from one's spirit.

We should seek to edify the church.
We should seek understanding.
We should pursue love.

And I agree. But that in no way implies that the gift of tongues was false. Everything points to it being the gift of tongues.

 

[Henry]

Free

Great that is what the bible says, but I still contend that 99.99% of the so called tongues that we hear today ARE not the tongues that Paul was even talking about.

Certainly do not forbid the speaking in tongues, but that does not include a fake and imatation does it.

Sorry, but all the tongues that I have witnesses in the MANY churches that I have visited who do that, are nonesence.

And the interpretations are nothing less then a tabloid horoscope.

Anyways, the point is that I have no problem with tongues. I just do not beleive that for the most part what we hear these days are geuine tongues at all.

 

[Free]

Henry,

Certainly do not forbid the speaking in tongues, but that does not include a fake and imatation does it.

Sorry, but all the tongues that I have witnesses in the MANY churches that I have visited who do that, are nonesence.

Are you 100% certain of this? On what basis do you judge that they are false?

Paul is clear the tongues are unknown to the speaker and the listeners; that the "mind is unfruitful." He speaks in tongues more than anyone, yet not in church.

There is nothing that Paul says that would indicate that the tongues today are different from the tongues in the Corinthian church.

 

[Dave...]

Free

When you put everything together and look at it in context, Paul is clearly talking about the abuse and misuse of the gift of tongues. It was held higher than prophecy, likely to the point where no one was being edified. Never once does Paul state or even imply that the gift of tongues was false.

Whether or not any of us believes that the tongues spoken of in 1Cor. is the true being abused, or the true vs the false, or just speaking in foriegn language (not the gift), really makes no diffrence for now, nor does whether or not we believe tongues are for today. We need build from a foundation of truth. I'm just trying to establish that in 1 Cor. these verses (14:2,4) that are taught as commands in some circles today, That that reasoning contradicts what Paul says they should strive for. For that reason and others, since Chapters 12-14 focus is on the Church and it's function in a Biblical and orderly way, I reasonbly conclude that these are rebukes and would not build from these verses when defined as commands. Notice when Paul compares prophecy to tongue in the fist four verses of chapter fourteen, there is not a "and" in between, there is a "but".


1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
---------
1Cor. 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1Cor.14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.


Notice that nowhere in these three chapters does Paul tell these people to seek to speak in tongues, he only says to "do not forbid it". The reason for this can be found in verses 14:21,22. Tongues are for a sign to unbelieving Israel, where prophecy is for believers. (see #2 below for more)

Which brings us to the next question. What did Paul meen when he said to ernestly desire the greater gifts in 12:31?

There are three ways that this can be interpreted.

1) A command to each individual.

This would be difficult to prove since it is the Holy Spirit that distributes the gifts as He sees fit for His purposes. Paul just got through telling these Corinthians not to do that very thing, in great detail in chapter twelve. To come back and have Paul say to desire and seek the greater gifts on a personal level after he had just spent the whole chapter telling them it was wrong, would be one of a few clear obstacles to overcome for this reasoning in defining "eagerly desire the greater gifts" as a individual command.

2) Plural, a command to the Church in general.

Example; While assembled, to seek to use the one with the Gift of prophecy over the one with the gift of tongues. Do not fobid tongues, and if it is used they must bring it up to par with prophecy in result, but seek to prophesy because that is the gift for believers, tongues is for unbelievers.

3) "[but you] earnestly desire the greater gifts"

I give credit to the NIV for recognising this. If you look at the alternate translation from your NIV for verse 12:31, you will see that that verse can be translated..."But you earnestly desire the greater gifts" Look up the word "zeloo"=#2206 in the Greek dictionary (zeloo=eagerly desire). Eagerly desire, jealous, envy, coveting, to eagerly desire. This can be translated as a statement of fact or a command. A statement of fact fits better considering what Paul just finished teaching them. Reading; 'But you eanestly desire the greater gifts, but I have a better way, that is the way of love'. then chapter 13 starts.

Paul also states that he wished they all spoke in tongues and that they should not forbid speaking in tongues.

I went over this already, maybe you weren't participating in this thread at that time. I'm sure it must be within the first three pages. I don't have time today to find it or rewrite it. Maybe you can find it and save me the time.

And I agree. But that in no way implies that the gift of tongues was false. Everything points to it being the gift of tongues.

It would be easier for me to show why if we can start establishing a foundation of truth. This is why I don't care to get into whether tongues are for today at this point. We need to know what was happening at Corinth at that time, and build from that.

Out of time today. I started drinking coffee again, then realised it was a mistake, and quite three days ago once again. Thanks for having patience with me and my withdraws.

 

[Henry]

Are you 100% certain of this? On what basis do you judge that they are false?

Yes I am 100% possitive that the tongues we hear today are NOT what Paul was talking about, thoughI agree with you in many things, here I find you to be wrong. And guilty of reading doctrine into text.

I base my judgement on the word of God.

 

[Dave...]

Free, I found it.

"I wish you all spoke in tongues"

First, Paul wishes this for the sake of emphasis, secondly, Paul would not presume to improve on the Holy Spirit's wisdom (12:11,18 ). Third, it would be impossible and contrary to God's sovereign plan for everyone to have the gift of tongues.....

..."I wish" I'll give you a perfect example of what Paul means here.

1 Cor.7:7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself ( unmarried ). But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

Paul wishes that everyone could devote all their time and energy towards serving God in singleness but quickly establishes the fact that God's perfect will has other plans. He stated that "he wished all" for the sake of emphasis.

"18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;"

Paul did not condem the true gift of languages, even though he was rebuking the Corinthians. He was also establishing the fact that if anyone would know what the true gift was, it would be him. Who "spoke tongues more than them all".

 

[Free]

But, again, you are interpreting the whole chapter based on the wrongful assumption that Paul was referring to a false gift of tongues in the Corinthian church. But there is never any such distinction made by Paul in all of Corinthians; tongues are tongues are tongues. You are, in effect, arguing in a circle. You begin with the assumption that Paul is addressing false tongues and then interpret all evidence based on that assumption to conclude that Paul was addressing false tongues.

 

[Dave...]

But, again, you are interpreting the whole chapter based on the wrongful assumption that Paul was referring to a false gift of tongues in the Corinthian church. But there is never any such distinction made by Paul in all of Corinthians; tongues are tongues are tongues. You are, in effect, arguing in a circle. You begin with the assumption that Paul is addressing false tongues and then interpret all evidence based on that assumption to conclude that Paul was addressing false tongues.

Free, maybe you should read my post again. Why will you not have a honest discussion with me? I'll quote myself from my last post so you won't miss it.

Whether or not any of us believes that the tongues spoken of in 1Cor. is the true being abused, or the true vs the false, or just speaking in foriegn language (not the gift), really makes no diffrence for now, nor does whether or not we believe tongues are for today. We need build from a foundation of truth. I'm just trying to establish that in 1 Cor. these verses (14:2,4) that are taught as commands in some circles today, That that reasoning contradicts what Paul says they should strive for. For that reason and others, since Chapters 12-14 focus is on the Church and it's function in a Biblical and orderly way, I reasonbly conclude that these are rebukes and would not build from these verses when defined as commands.

 

[Eve777]

You know what gives me joy. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the baptism in the Holy Ghost is for today. It happened to me in just the way it did in the book of Acts. It has happened to millions down through the years So, it really will never matter to those of us who have received it what evidence you think you have to present against it. We know.

What makes me sad, is that so many of you are so locked into the letter of the law, that you will just simply not ask God.

"You have not because you ask not" How much more will he give the Holy Ghost to those who ask....Come as a child to him..a child just simply ask thier Father for what they want.

ASK him and stop all this "always learning and NEVER coming to the knowledge of the truth" You won't find it with your head,,,you must use your heart...the scriptures are spiritually descerned....

Once you recieve, you will see so many scriptures in a different light. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

 

[Henry]

People say this and they do not seem to really have understood what happened on the 'day of pentecost' becuase that was one time event that simply has not been repeated, and these folks that think becuase they got all emotional and babled some sory of nonesence they had day of pentecost experience, they are mistaken.

Acts 2: 1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--hears them in his own native language? 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?" 13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[2] "



speak in other tongues What are other tongues? Not this unknown prayer language that is so mis taught (which does not exist) But actually languages understood and know by those that were around.


hears them in his own native language?

A tongue is the same as saying language, Spanish is a tongue for that matter.

What happened is that they were all gathered and in the fullment of Jesus words they were given power through speaking the languages of all the nations, to witness the wonders of God to all the nations.

You dear did not speak in languages and were witnessed by the nations, who heard you speaking in their languages and were converted that day, having heard you.

You did not have a pentecost experience, that is a fact.

What makes me sad, is that so many of you are so locked into the letter of the law, that you will just simply not ask God.

LOL, this is such a cop out. The law is not the problem, here. You are just wrong about what the bible teaches that is the problem. But worse then that you refuse to hear anyone who has been sent to teach you.

Once you recieve, you will see so many scriptures in a different light. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Another way of avoiding any real biblical talk. When ever someone shows you that you are wrong about what the bible is teaching, you just turn to this sort of thing. Perhaps dear it you who need a different light to read by, and your light is not the Holy Spirit becuase you are teaching things that the Church has deemed heretical for nearly 1800 years.

 

[Eve777]

But worse then that you refuse to hear anyone who has been sent to teach you.

I know you think you were sent to teach me and that you are in fact the Spirit of Truth. You are not.

John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you.

you are teaching things that the Church has deemed heretical for nearly 1800 years.

Unlike you, Henry, I don't persume to teach anyone anything. I say, read your bible! Work it out for yourself....

And whatever you do, don't believe some so called chruch doctrine just because it has been deemed true...who deemed it true? What Church? Have they ever been wrong, this Chruch you hold in such high esteem?

I have news for you. The Church is God's people, not some institution.