A question for those with "uncertainty"

[inhopeofglory]

Hi,

Having read the replies to coelacanth's recent thread on "How strong is your belief in God?", I have a quick question. For those believers who did/would not rate their belief in God as "100% with no uncertainty", may I ask why? I'm particularly interested to hear your view, Minnesota - what "doubts" (within your framework of understanding) do you at times have?

Please note that I'm just curious - I'll respond with comments/questions if I think they're going to be useful, but otherwise I'm just trying to understand... If anyone would rather not post here for all to see/respond to, then please PM me.

 

[Guest]

Having read the replies to coelacanth's recent thread on "How strong is your belief in God?", I have a quick question. For those believers who did/would not rate their belief in God as "100% with no uncertainty", may I ask why? I'm particularly interested to hear your view, Minnesota - what "doubts" (within your framework of understanding) do you at times have?

The central issue is my understanding of the human condition. Human beings are limited. We are limited by space, time, and so on. This limits our ability to know things, to experience things, and so on. These limitations require me to be somewhat skeptical of what I believe I know. Further, there are issues to which I have yet to discover fully satisfactory answers (e.g., theodicy, origins of religion, evolution, etc.).

 

[Gabe]

Hi,

Having read the replies to coelacanth's recent thread on "How strong is your belief in God?", I have a quick question. For those believers who did/would not rate their belief in God as "100% with no uncertainty", may I ask why? I'm particularly interested to hear your view, Minnesota - what "doubts" (within your framework of understanding) do you at times have?

Please note that I'm just curious - I'll respond with comments/questions if I think they're going to be useful, but otherwise I'm just trying to understand... If anyone would rather not post here for all to see/respond to, then please PM me.

I'm not sure that anything I say will be any clearer than my original statement, but I'll try.

I believe in God. I believe in Him so much that I was willing to forsake my family, friends and physical safety for Him. Given this, I suppose it may seem strange to some that I chose option 2, but I think this is the only logical answer for a believer who is strong in faith. IMO Option 1 is as irrational as option 6; no one (with the exception of God Himself) can be that certain of something which is of a supernatural nature unless they were all-knowing (which I am not). I don't see how this could be considered as false faith, its simply admitting that we as humans have our limitations.

 

[GojuBrian]

I answered 100%, but I have something to add.

I don't have doubts, but I often have questions to things I don't yet understand. I haven't yet failed to find an answer with careful study of the scriptures.

 

[Lee100]

I have 110 % faith in God’s abilities to do any thing He wants. Sometimes the answer is No. by faith I accept His answer. God knows best, since He can see into the future and is all knowing. I trust His judgments fully. I know that God will bring about the time of the end, and I am now scared because I know that he will take care of his own. We as Christians are not to suffer wrath. But The Word Of God also says for us to pray that we are found worthy to escape the things that are coming upon the earth. Keeping in mind that Jesus also says Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

God bless all who remain faithful to His Name.

 

[follower of Christ]

The central issue is my understanding of the human condition. Human beings are limited. We are limited by space, time, and so on. This limits our ability to know things, to experience things, and so on. These limitations require me to be somewhat skeptical of what I believe I know. Further, there are issues to which I have yet to discover fully satisfactory answers (e.g., theodicy, origins of religion, evolution, etc.).

I think if we're honest with ourselves we will admit that philosophy and science is the root of most of these doubts. They have taught us to question everything so greatly that when presented with a very simple answer, we cannot just accept it at face value but have to keep dissecting things well beyond what they need to be.
This works with many things in life, but it simply destroys faith in a person.

Further, there are issues to which I have yet to discover fully satisfactory answers

EXACTLY.
And as long as you are looking for logical reasons why the Man-God came down to die for His creation you will never understand true faith. You are looking for logic in something where logic does not always apply.
Logic has its place, but it does not rule everything.

 

[follower of Christ]

I'm not sure that anything I say will be any clearer than my original statement, but I'll try.

I believe in God. I believe in Him so much that I was willing to forsake my family, friends and physical safety for Him. Given this, I suppose it may seem strange to some that I chose option 2, but I think this is the only logical answer for a believer who is strong in faith. IMO Option 1 is as irrational as option 6; no one (with the exception of God Himself) can be that certain of something which is of a supernatural nature unless they were all-knowing (which I am not). I don't see how this could be considered as false faith, its simply admitting that we as humans have our limitations.

Gabe, I have a VERY strong feeling that deep down you are a #1.
I think that you just dont know that you are because you havent faced the real test yet. When you do Id bet this years income that you find that you were a #1 all the time.

Because most of us are taught in school to question everything and never settle for an answer, I believe that we have applied this also to faith and God and we question so much that we talk ourselves into not believing.

You have to understand, brother, that WE arent the sole source of our faith.

For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
(Rom 12:3)

So we arent dealing only with our limitations, but with something GOD has provided

 

[follower of Christ]

I answered 100%, but I have something to add.

I don't have doubts, but I often have questions to things I don't yet understand. I haven't yet failed to find an answer with careful study of the scriptures.

Very understandable
I think sometimes we get confused between doubt and simply having questions.
Questioning something, not having full understanding, isnt the same as doubt or unbelief.
I dont understand a lot of things and the deeper I dig into Gods word and find answers, the more questions I have. But the more I do, the stronger my faith has become.

In 2001 when I faced my own testing, I found myself questioning. For a time I believed that I was even questioning Gods existence. What I later found was that I wasnt really doubting that He is, but I was looking for answers about WHY He lets things happen the way He does. In looking for that answer I realized that I had to believe that He exists or I wouldnt be looking for an answer to that question to begin with.

Sometimes I think when we get to the root of our questions, we find answers that we didnt know we were even looking for.

 

[Guest]

I think if we're honest with ourselves we will admit that philosophy and science is the root of most of these doubts. They have taught us to question everything so greatly that when presented with a very simple answer, we cannot just accept it at face value but have to keep dissecting things well beyond what they need to be.

I do not see questioning as inherently evil. I think we actually agree on this point. And I also agree people can take things beyond what is necessary. I have been exploring the latter issue for sometime.

This works with many things in life, but it simply destroys faith in a person.

It has actually resulted in a more stable faith for myself.

And as long as you are looking for logical reasons why the Man-God came down to die for His creation you will never understand true faith. You are looking for logic in something where logic does not always apply.

This has been addressed elsewhere.

 

[inhopeofglory]

Thanks for the replies. If I may, I'd like to respond with some comments/questions. I don't want this to become an argument, or a place where people snipe at other people's views/faith/walk with the Lord, but I would like to hear the thoughts of anyone who wishes to share.

I suppose one could technically say that it is impossible for anyone to know anything at all, other than the fact of one's own existence. I'm sure the majority of us have either seen or know of the film The Matrix, in which people think they're living a "normal" life like you and I now, but are actually in a post-apocalyptic world, enslaved to an artificial intelligence that generates an illusion in their minds. Hypothetically, one could question every aspect of life in that way. Maybe nothing is "real" and we're living an illusion.

How does one really "know" anything? In our limited state as humans, we invariably use experience as a basis for what we claim to know. How do I know that any of you are real people? I post questions/comments on this message board, and the replies I receive are indicative of intelligence, humanity, life. I "experience" you, so I know you exist. However, one could hypothesize that you're all actually just a very complex computer program, and I'm the only human. :-p Or maybe I'm crazy, and just hallucinating these interactions with you. So in that sense I don't actually know, do I? And yet I can still say with 100% probability that you exist. I don't doubt it for a moment. I would never say, "Well, I think they're real people."

Take the same example - of relationship and personal interaction - and apply it to God. I know that God is real, that He exists, because I interact with Him on a daily basis. I've heard Him speak with pinpoint precision into my life through one of my church elders, and it completely overwhelmed me, reducing me to floods of tears as I heard the very Creator of the Universe speaking directly to me, personally. I'm sure many of the believers on this board could give similar testimonies of personal interaction with God. But I'm equally sure that many of the non-believers on this board will scoff at such "experience" and/or chalk it down to emotion, or hallucination, or some other natural non-theistic cause.

Do you know you're saved from Hell? Do you believe you're saved from Hell? Do you think you're saved from Hell? Or do you hope you're saved from Hell?

Me, I know I'm saved. How do I know? Primarily because I trust God and take Him at His Word. He says "... if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9) I've done that, I know I have. Therefore, I'm saved. God has then taken that belief/trust in His Word, and applied it to my heart. I know deep inside that I am one of His.

The Bible itself says we are to know these things.

1 John 2:3, 5: "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments... But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him."

1 John 3:14b, 18-19, 24: "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren... My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him... Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

1 John 4:12-13: "No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."

1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

 

[follower of Christ]

I suppose one could technically say that it is impossible for anyone to know anything at all, other than the fact of one's own existence. I'm sure the majority of us have either seen or know of the film The Matrix, in which people think they're living a "normal" life like you and I now, but are actually in a post-apocalyptic world, enslaved to an artificial intelligence that generates an illusion in their minds. Hypothetically, one could question every aspect of life in that way. Maybe nothing is "real" and we're living an illusion.

I'll be Neo ;)

 

[Guest]

inhopeofglory,

Thanks for your thoughts and honesty.

 

[JoJo]

I said enough in the other thread, so I have no further comment except to post this passage that I believe refers to relying too much on earthly logic and intellect:

Matthew 18:2-4 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Guest]

11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

What does it mean to reason like an adult?

 

[JoJo]

Good question. :yes

 

[Veritas]

Personally, I think we all have faith issues...

Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:19-20

It's interesting Jesus said we could do things like that if we had "small" faith. I'd imagine we all are in the "small" category at best.

 

[JoJo]

Personally, I think we all have faith issues...

Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:19-20

It's interesting Jesus said we could do things like that if we had "small" faith. I'd imagine we all are in the "small" category at best.

You bring up a good point. The original thread centered around belief in God's existence. I have 100% faith that God exists. But interestingly enough, I struggle with the issue of faith that moves mountains. I know God can move a mountain, but in the back of my head I always think, "But He won't." That's where I struggle.

 

[radorth]

Veritas is correct, and all we have to do get more faith is admit ours is small. This almost no Christian will do because of fear, of one kind or another.

I have found that a lot of blustering about what the scripture says and an inability to respect another's experience, usually indicates a weak faith where there has been no real interaction with God.

To one who has actually been to the third heaven, most preaching and doctrinal debates sound like a bunch of religious noise from people who have no real faith at all.

I find more faith in people who have grown humbler and more apt to change their minds and admit their weaknesses as they grow in grace. (Is anybody here ready to boast like Paul of their weaknesses?) Those with great faith may have few friends and few people who agree with them. That is because the Reformation is still going on, and few Christians want to admit they haven't got it yet.Those with real faith don't repeat doctrines they heard "somewhere" over and over because the doctrine lines up with their experience. They don't need to prove to everybody they have it all figured out now. They are always hungry for more of the "living water" Jesus was talking about. (Jn 7:37 as I recall) If you don't have that, or haven't experienced it, you simply have beliefs. You don't really believe, because as Jesus said, if you did, "out of his inner most being will flow rivers of living water."

If you have not truly experienced that, you are a believer in name only I'm afraid, and it is just best to humble oneself and admit it, so it can flow.

 

[follower of Christ]

Personally, I think we all have faith issues...

Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:19-20

It's interesting Jesus said we could do things like that if we had "small" faith. I'd imagine we all are in the "small" category at best.

So Jesus' disciples needed faith. That doesnt indicate what another mans faith is.
Jesus' ministry was very short. Not nearly the amount of time that many of us have been in the faith.
His disciples were still VERY young in this new faith when Jesus said what He did to them. Later in life they were willing to even lay down their lives for Him. But not even at the time of His death did Peter have that faith yet.

 

[follower of Christ]

Veritas is correct, and all we have to do get more faith is admit ours is small.

Please. Veritas, nor you, are the authority on faith here.

This almost no Christian will do because of fear, of one kind or another.

Is this the game you must try to play to try to force someone to admit something that isnt true ?
Sorry to ruin your day but I have no fear in the matter and I know I have faith.
Im afraid you folks are going to have to learn to live with the FACT that many of us DO have faith that some seemingly cannot fathom.

Jesus' ministry was how long ?
About 3 years.
That means that His disciples were VERY young believers even at His death.
Many of US have been believers for decades. MUCH longer than when Jesus chastised His disciples for not having faith. LONG enough to have actually gotten faith that they did not have AT THAT TIME when Jesus said what He did.

I have found that a lot of blustering about what the scripture says and an inability to respect another's experience, usually indicates a weak faith where there has been no real interaction with God.

Absolute nonsense.
Again, is this the game you have to play here ?
YOU dont have the faith that we are talking about so you have to find some way to attack the faith of those who DO to try to get them to agree with you ?
Isnt going to happen, poster.
Ive had things happen and seen things in my life and I KNOW He exists. And I KNOW that my life was forfeit and my existence is in Him alone now. He has given me no choice but to have 100% faith in Him.

To one who has actually been to the third heaven, most preaching and doctrinal debates sound like a bunch of religious noise from people who have no real faith at all.

This sounds like someone who has no faith at all trying to convince himself that no one else does either ;)

I find more faith in people who have grown humbler and more apt to change their minds and admit their weaknesses as they grow in grace. (Is anybody here ready to boast like Paul of their weaknesses?)

MY weakness has nothing to do with my faith in God. I have plenty of my own weaknesses. And I have them while having 100% faith in God.

Those with great faith may have few friends and few people who agree with them. That is because the Reformation is still going on, and few Christians want to admit they haven't got it yet.Those with real faith don't repeat doctrines they heard "somewhere" over and over because the doctrine lines up with their experience. They don't need to prove to everybody they have it all figured out now. They are always hungry for more of the "living water" Jesus was talking about. (Jn 7:37 as I recall) If you don't have that, or haven't experienced it, you simply have beliefs. You don't really believe, because as Jesus said, if you did, "out of his inner most being will flow rivers of living water."

And maybe, poster, the REASON we share our faith is so that the READERS can KNOW that they CAN HAVE this kind of faith.
YOU see it as something negative, but people like my wife who are still young in Christ and have not yet come to that kind of faith...those who are genuinely SEARCHING for that faith, unlike some here who are simply trying to dismiss it...those such as my wife are blessed by seeing older brothers and sisters in Christ who are unwavering...who KNOW that God exists and trust Him without question.

Our faith is only actually a threat to those who dont have it yet and dont seem to want to admit it.

If you have not truly experienced that, you are a believer in name only I'm afraid, and it is just best to humble oneself and admit it, so it can flow.

And some who dont have that kind of faith want everyone to admit that they dont have it either so they can feel better about themselves.
Isnt going to happen.
I KNOW where I am at in my walk. I DONT doubt Gods existence and I DONT doubt that He is very active in my life and I trust Him implicitly. He has left me with no choice in the matter.
Does that bother you ?

All a few of you are doing is ENCOURAGING others to stop looking for that kind of faith. You seemingly are settled in your 99%, and so apparently want everyone else to just settle for 99% as well.

For you READERS, you CAN have more than what some here apparently what you to settle for.
Dont let anyone coerce you into accepting anything else..