Abomination that makes Desolate, how do you see this as happening?

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus didn’t tell us where he is. Why do you need to fix his location?

Again, why is his location important? How much he actually knows us is debatable. Jesus the unclean spirits knew. Paul they were only acquainted with. If he knows each of us by name depends on some factors it seems.

Jesus did tell us.
Not just of his access to heaven but of his future final ejection from it .
Conversely, because Jesus says where Satan's next residence after being ejected is, is why his location is important as pertaining to the thread topic.
============================================================================
Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Rookie]

I believe it's the rejection of God, the exchanging of God's definition and way of something for a counterfiet (i.e. marriage, spirituality, pleasure) and the coming beast of the Sea.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus did tell us.
Not just of his access to heaven but of his future final ejection from it .
Conversely, because Jesus says where Satan's next residence after being ejected is, is why his location is important as pertaining to the thread topic.
============================================================================
Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

How do you know when this took place? Jesus said once that he saw Satan fall like lightening.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How do you know when this took place?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe it's the rejection of God, the exchanging of God's definition and way of something for a counterfiet (i.e. marriage, spirituality, pleasure) and the coming beast of the Sea.

I can see that except it says it is set up in the temple in the holy place and that place does not exist. That is the catch for futurists and I asked how they deal with this undeniable fact. People deal with it differently and it is interesting. The "God can do anything I can imagine" argument is the one I find rather juvenile. None of the prophesies in Daniel or Matthew 24 or Revelation rely on God being able to do anything as they all describe a great deal of what people do and when God is acting, he is releasing judgement in form of punishment. He is not building an edifice. "My dad is bigger than you think" sounds like children.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I can see that except it says it is set up in the temple in the holy place and that place does not exist.

It does exist in the sense that Christ and his followers are the Temple of God. It's plausible that who and what opposes Christ infiltrates the church. Not a "building", but corrupts what Jesus and his disciples teach.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It does exist in the sense that Christ and his followers are the Temple of God. It's plausible that who and what opposes Christ infiltrates the church. Not a "building", but corrupts what Jesus and his disciples teach.

Well, that’s one view answering my question.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Well, that’s one view answering my question.

It makes sense, if we think in terms of rejecting Christ as an abomination that causes desolation.
I'm speaking of the religious leaders and Pontius Pilate killing Jesus. I don't mean our Lord showing mercy by enduring sins against himself, but the sins themselves, hating him and wanting him dead.
Also, how Jesus lived in sacrifice to our Father daily, the daily sacrific and taught us to live that way.

 

[rdclmn72]

Abominations that cause desolation have a long history in the Bible.
1. The sons of Aaron got drunk and entered the holy place offering strange fire. God killed them.
2. The sons of Eli despised the offerings and slept with the women who kept watch at the sanctuary. God killed them and the Ark was taken in battle.
3. The israelites looked inside the Ark. God killed them.
4. Mannaseh erected an idol beside the temple. God destroyed the city and temple.
5. Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the altar. Nothing happened.
6. Pompey entered the inner sanctuary. Nothing happened.
7. God only reacts when his own people desecrate the sanctuary.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I am curious about this particular matter. For those who think this is in the future, how do you see it as playing out?

Everytime a false Christian apostle, preacher, and teacher sits in a pulpit of his own making to build a church in his own image.

1. How can there be an abomination placed in the temple when there is no temple?

The temple of God is still on earth. It's called the body of Christ.

Do you believe Israel will tear down the Dom of the rock and build a temple there? (This is very unlikely as the Muslims will not take that lying down.)

Who cares?

2. What kind of abomination could be placed there that is so bad, it causes the Jews (most of whom are actually atheists today*) to be desolate (a very deep depression.)

The unbelieving Jews are already desolate, just like all unbelievers on earth. It's the Christian saints the devil is now seeking to corrupt.

*only 30% of Jewish said they were religious in 2015...a very atheist country

Whether unbelievers in the Jews religion or atheists, what's the difference? The road to hell is wide enough for all.

That includes the Muslim religion, Buddha's, and Satan's worship.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Everytime a false Christian apostle, preacher, and teacher sits in a pulpit of his own making to build a church in his own image.

So it’s not a future event for you but one that has been happening since the first century?

The temple of God is still on earth. It's called the body of Christ.

Who cares?

A lot of people. Many have written books on the subject.

The unbelieving Jews are already desolate, just like all unbelievers on earth. It's the Christian saints the devil is now seeking to corrupt.

They are desolate but don’t know it?

Whether unbelievers in the Jews religion or atheists, what's the difference? The road to hell is wide enough for all.
.

Makes a difference for them.

That includes the Muslim religion, Buddha's, and Satan's worship.

The road to the truth is different.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So it’s not a future event for you but one that has been happening since the first century?

No. It's an event occurring over and over again, until the last one before the Lord's return. That false christ to come riding in on his great whited horse, will be the most widely effective one of deceiving people into thinking he is the Christ come in the flesh. But his name won't be Jesus, nor will he be holding to the Head of the body, but ministering himself as the head.

Many nations have risen and fallen, and will continue again and again for good or bad, until the Lord comes to rule them all.

A lot of people. Many have written books on the subject.

True. I don't belittle the subject, but only it's relevance to God and prophecy of Scripture. Temples made with hands were no more God's concern, when Jesus spoke of the temple of His day being destroyed out of hand. He didn't make a big deal of it, but only prophesied it once and moved on.

While it was standing though, He did clean it of merchandizers twice. I mean, if there's going to be one, we might as well at least keep it clean.

It was carnal men that made a big deal out of their grand temple they built. The disciples were also carried away with such glorious stones, until they were converted at His resurrection. And even then they favored worshipping in the temple.

When Solomon's temple was destroyed, that was a judgment of condemnation against the children of Israel, so that God had them build Him another after their return to Judea. When herod's temple was destroyed, it was just Roman policy of plunder. Any other temple built today by man is the same. Only the temple the Lord Himself, that He builds for His reign to sit with His glory upon the temple seat, will matter to God again on earth.

If the last great antichrist does have a physical temple built for himself to sit in, it will be a heap or rubble as with most of Jerusalem at the Lord's return. But the real temple defilement of antichrists and false teachers is the body of Christ. Paul is speaking of false ministers defiling the churches of God in 1 Cor 3. If our doctrine and ministry becomes so harmful to the believers, that we cause them to sin against their own souls, then even if we aren't practicing such works of the flesh, we too will be judged and condemned with them. The false prophetess in Rev 2 is such an example.

They are desolate but don’t know it?

Of course.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I was desolate like any unsaved sinner, until the Spirit of grace began convincing me of sin as cause for my separation from God. I just never had religion to try and fill in the void of my heart. I tried philosophy, but that was also insufficient.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The unbelievers whether Jew or Greek, that remain alive after the Lord's return to earth, will all become instant believers by sight of His coming as lightning. But even then, only the contrite of heart will acknowledge their desolation, with His Spirit of grace and supplication converting their souls to Him.

Makes a difference for them.

And us, if we endure not to the end.

The road to the truth is different.

Exactly. That's why religions and philosophies and other persuasions of the heart and soul are without profit to God, if not confessing Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. It's an event occurring over and over again, until the last one before the Lord's return. That false christ to come riding in on his great whited horse, will be the most widely effective one of deceiving people into thinking he is the Christ come in the flesh. But his name won't be Jesus, nor will he be holding to the Head of the body, but ministering himself as the head.

You still have the problem that Jesus said these terrible events never happened before and will never happen again. That description you have to ignore.

Many nations have risen and fallen, and will continue again and again for good or bad, until the Lord comes to rule them all.

That’s not described in Revelation and while true, is irrelevant.

True. I don't belittle the subject, but only it's relevance to God and prophecy of Scripture. Temples made with hands were no more God's concern, when Jesus spoke of the temple of His day being destroyed out of hand. He didn't make a big deal of it, but only prophesied it once and moved on.

Well, the physical was a pretty big deal to God. His presence was there.

While it was standing though, He did clean it of merchandizers twice. I mean, if there's going to be one, we might as well at least keep it clean.

It was carnal men that made a big deal out of their grand temple they built. The disciples were also carried away with such glorious stones, until they were converted at His resurrection. And even then they favored worshipping in the temple.

Again, the literal presence of God was there. Paul always went to the local synagogue. It was pivotal which is why specific instructions were given.

When Solomon's temple was destroyed, that was a judgment of condemnation against the children of Israel, so that God had them build Him another after their return to Judea. When herod's temple was destroyed, it was just Roman policy of plunder.

Actually the Romans tried to save the temple. It was God’s judgement on Israel and it was a big deal. It ended the age.

Any other temple built today by man is the same.

No, God no longer dwells in buildings.

Only the temple the Lord Himself, that He builds for His reign to sit with His glory upon the temple seat, will matter to God again on earth.

His body is the temple. He won’t reign from a building.

If the last great antichrist does have a physical temple built for himself to sit in, it will be a heap or rubble as with most of Jerusalem at the Lord's return. But the real temple defilement of antichrists and false teachers is the body of Christ. Paul is speaking of false ministers defiling the churches of God in 1 Cor 3. If our doctrine and ministry becomes so harmful to the believers, that we cause them to sin against their own souls, then even if we aren't practicing such works of the flesh, we too will be judged and condemned with them. The false prophetess in Rev 2 is such an example.

I think the terrible bits of Revelation are fulfilled.

Of course.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I was desolate like any unsaved sinner, until the Spirit of grace began convincing me of sin as cause for my separation from God. I just never had religion to try and fill in the void of my heart. I tried philosophy, but that was also insufficient.

What you say means desolate has no meaning. It actually is a deep depression or sadness and I see the events preceding 70AD causing this. It doesn’t mean “unsaved” people who are often happy and not at all desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The unbelievers whether Jew or Greek, that remain alive after the Lord's return to earth, will all become instant believers by sight of His coming as lightning. But even then, only the contrite of heart will acknowledge their desolation, with His Spirit of grace and supplication converting their souls to Him.


And us, if we endure not to the end.


Exactly. That's why religions and philosophies and other persuasions of the heart and soul are without profit to God, if not confessing Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Well yes, I mostly agree, although Jesus’ coming will be the Resurrection.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You still have the problem that Jesus said these terrible events never happened before and will never happen again. That description you have to ignore.

You're not understanding me. But, it's not a big deal. The cycle and nations and antichrists has occurred many times on earth, and each generation of believers have declared theirs to be the end.

I don't do that, unless I see the sure sign of His coming. If I see a false apostle of Christ preaching another gospel of His own, that has lying wonders along with world-wide conversion, then I'll know the time is near.

That has not ever happened on earth yet.

That’s not described in Revelation and while true, is irrelevant.

So far as the end of nations ruling themselves at His return, yes. But it does explain why many sincere Christians of the past in almost every generation have said the end was near in their own lifetimes.

Well, the physical was a pretty big deal to God. His presence was there.

True. Jesus prayed and taught in it, and sought to keep it clean of spiritual filth and merchandizing.

Again, the literal presence of God was there. Paul always went to the local synagogue. It was pivotal which is why specific instructions were given.

Jesus the man was there, but not His present glory as in the temple built by Solomon, and the tabernacle of the wilderness.

The next temple with His glory will be for His Millinium.

Actually the Romans tried to save the temple.

I don't see that in history. Caligula wanted it to house his own idol, but Titus certainly had no interest in keeping it around.

It was God’s judgement on Israel and it was a big deal.

True. Prophesied by Jesus.

It ended the age.

The age of the OT temples made with hands is ended. When Jesus was not recieved by His own and crucified instead.

Now is the age of the NT of Jesus Christ, with men still ruling their own nations and boundaries.

This age will end at His return, and the final age on this earth will be His Millennium rule out of His temple in Jerusalem.

The last and everlasting age will be God and the Lamb dwelling with man on the new earth in the New Jerusalem. That is when He will be the physical temple among men.

No, God no longer dwells in buildings.

True, not now. Except that of His building in bodies of flesh.

He will dwell in a temple building during His rule over all nations.

His body is the temple. He won’t reign from a building.

I believe the prophecies of His millennial rule on earth. And it will be from the house prophesied in Ezekiel that His glory enters into. The waters will flow from it to heal the sea, and the land will be divided equally from Nile to Euphrates for natural Hebrews and Jews.

Micah 6 says many from far off will come to help Him build His house temple, from which he rules as King and serves as High Priest for all nations.

I think the terrible bits of Revelation are fulfilled.

I haven't so much as heard of any locusts with men's faces stinging people with their tales.

Much less fire and brimstone breathing horses with lion's heads.

I take Scripture of doctrine and prophecy literal, when there's no reason not to.

What you say means desolate has no meaning.

Jesus pronounced Jerusalem desolate, until they recieved Him blessed in the name of the Lord.

Christians do so in Jerusalem today, but the rulers of Jerusalem are still as blind and desolate of God as the day they first rejected Jesus.

It actually is a deep depression or sadness and I see the events preceding 70AD causing this. It doesn’t mean “unsaved” people who are often happy and not at all desolate.

True. But we are speaking of God's definition of desolate, which is them not receiving Jesus as Lord and being spiritually dead to God.

No one is denying that the unsaved never have any happiness at all, and God doesn't begrudged it when they do.

Well yes, I mostly agree, although Jesus’ coming will be the Resurrection.

True. The first resurrection of the bodies of all saints, will be at His coming again into the air.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You're not understanding me. But, it's not a big deal. The cycle and nations and antichrists has occurred many times on earth, and each generation of believers have declared theirs to be the end.

But that does not match that Jesus said it would occur once in human history. What is more, there is no evidence that each generation has declared theirs to be the end. This only started when Dispensationalism was introduce in the 19th century. Suddenly people were told that they were near the last days. Before this it was not so. And, what is more, they were all wrong. It is not circular if they are wrong and it did not happen as they believed.

I don't do that, unless I see the sure sign of His coming. If I see a false apostle of Christ preaching another gospel of His own, that has lying wonders along with world-wide conversion, then I'll know the time is near.

Well, there are no shortage of those who will tell you who this is. It has happened every generation since Dispensationalism was introduced and they were all wrong.

That has not ever happened on earth yet.

The problem is the anticipation of one bad boegyman whereby the futurists have combined Johns description of many antichrists with the Beast of Revelation (who is never called Antichrist) and drawn up an expectation that will never happen. It already did.

So far as the end of nations ruling themselves at His return, yes. But it does explain why many sincere Christians of the past in almost every generation have said the end was near in their own lifetimes.

But as I said, there is no evidence for this except when Dispensationalism and futurism was introduced.

True. Jesus prayed and taught in it, and sought to keep it clean of spiritual filth and merchandizing.

True.

Jesus the man was there, but not His present glory as in the temple built by Solomon, and the tabernacle of the wilderness.

The next temple with His glory will be for His Millinium.

There is not going to be another building and he is not moving from dwelling in the believers to dwelling in a house of stone. He is not going to rule the world from Jerusalem. This, actually, is what the pharisees taught. The Messiah will rule the world and the Jews will be the masters of everyone.

I don't see that in history. Caligula wanted it to house his own idol, but Titus certainly had no interest in keeping it around.

Titus wanted to keep it as a jewel for Rome. That is the record. He was sorry when it burned and tried to get his soldiers to put the fire out.

True. Prophesied by Jesus.


The age of the OT temples made with hands is ended. When Jesus was not recieved by His own and crucified instead.

Now is the age of the NT of Jesus Christ, with men still ruling their own nations and boundaries.

I think Jesus is ruling the nations, bit by bit, through the gospel changing nations and people. But one would have to know something of history to see this. This is why I say understanding prophesy does not come without a knowledge of real world events. In the first century, there was nothing but tyrants ruling the nations. Now there are few tyrants.

This age will end at His return, and the final age on this earth will be His Millennium rule out of His temple in Jerusalem.

That is what the Pharisees taught. It has crept into christianity. For millennia it was believed that the end of the age occurred when the temple was destroyed and the end of the Mosaic age occurred. It was clearly the end of an age.

The last and everlasting age will be God and the Lamb dwelling with man on the new earth in the New Jerusalem. That is when He will be the physical temple among men.

How that is to be set up I do not know. Might be although I see no role for Jerusalem.

True, not now. Except that of His building in bodies of flesh.

He will dwell in a temple building during His rule over all nations.

I do not believe that. That is really a step down.

I believe the prophecies of His millennial rule on earth. And it will be from the house prophesied in Ezekiel that His glory enters into. The waters will flow from it to heal the sea, and the land will be divided equally from Nile to Euphrates for natural Hebrews and Jews.

Micah 6 says many from far off will come to help Him build His house temple, from which he rules as King and serves as High Priest for all nations.



I haven't so much as heard of any locusts with men's faces stinging people with their tales.

Much less fire and brimstone breathing horses with lion's heads.

I take Scripture of doctrine and prophecy literal, when there's no reason not to.

I know that theology and do not believe any of it. The problem with taking Revelation "literally" is most of it is metaphorical as is the case in Hebrew literature. Jesus does not literally have a metal sword coming out of his mouth as in painted by some. That is absurd and uncomfortable and does no good since a tongue cannot wield a sword. So if you take it literally, do you believe a sword will be stuck in Jesus' mouth? I don't mean to be cheeky, but do you see the problem with the statement that you take the Bible literally? I take as truth too but know a metaphor when I read one.

Jesus pronounced Jerusalem desolate, until they recieved Him blessed in the name of the Lord.

That is not what it says. It says, "
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38See, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

There is nothing in there about being desolate until they receive him.

Christians do so in Jerusalem today, but the rulers of Jerusalem are still as blind and desolate of God as the day they first rejected Jesus.


True. But we are speaking of God's definition of desolate, which is them not receiving Jesus as Lord and being spiritually dead to God.

God does not have a different definition of desolate. Words communicate ideas and he does not change the definition of words so we do not know what he means which is actually untruthful. I see desolate as the normal definition and they were left desolate as the presence and glory of God departed from them and they were scattered and dissolved. There is more than one source that says the Jews today are not descendants of Abraham but European converts.

No one is denying that the unsaved never have any happiness at all, and God doesn't begrudged it when they do.

Well, the desolate cannot at the same time be happy. "Desolate" is depressed on steroids.

True. The first resurrection of the bodies of all saints, will be at His coming again into the air.

Yes, we agree on that one.