According to Jesus...

[watchman F]

The problem is shad danus doesn't care about what Jesus said, he is more concerned about what pastor so and so tells him is true.

Take a look at my OP. They are not my words but Jesus'.

I guess most of us have to believe we don't have to be faithful to Jesus since we don't take sin seriously and live in sin.

I give you a lengthy, thoughtful rebuttal and this is the best you can come back with?

It was lengthy I give you that I it may have been thoughtful, but there was absolutely no truth in it at all. All I saw was denominational indoctrination/rhetoric. The verse in question plainly states that only those that endure will be saved, and that some will fall away. Yet you deny this truth in coherence to your denomination stand on the issue. why does nobody believe scripture any more?

 

[Danus]

[quote="watchman F":2thegzql]The problem is shad danus doesn't care about what Jesus said, he is more concerned about what pastor so and so tells him is true.

Take a look at my OP. They are not my words but Jesus'.

I guess most of us have to believe we don't have to be faithful to Jesus since we don't take sin seriously and live in sin.

I give you a lengthy, thoughtful rebuttal and this is the best you can come back with?

It was lengthy I give you that I it may have been thoughtful, but there was absolutely no truth in it at all. All I saw was denominational indoctrination/rhetoric. The verse in question plainly states that only those that endure will be saved, and that some will fall away. Yet you deny this truth in coherence to your denomination stand on the issue. why does nobody believe scripture any more?[/quote:2thegzql]

This is why old preachers BANG on the pulpit. Oh well; I tried.

But, let me leave you with this. If you are finding that no one seems to believe the scriptures as you do; That the vast majority of Christians and men far more brilliant, who have spent their lives dedicated to the words of God, who have died for the faith...... disagree with what you have posted here....you might want to find out.

Either all those people are just totally ignorant and have no hope, or you are the smartest, most insightful theologian in the world. Lastly...just to set the record straight, I don't belong to any established denomination right now. Although I have visited and been a member of many. I'll list them for you. Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran and when I was younger....Catholic.

I did not find my salvation in a CHURCH! I found in in Christ at a time when I did not belong to any church nor did I even own a bible. That was 22 years ago. Just me and Christ with me on the floor asking ...begging for him to take my life!...and he did; just not in the way I thought.

That my friend is giving up! that is sacrificing ones SELF. It wasn't until that took place did I finally know what was being said in all those dusty churches my parents and friends dragged me into. So, your notion that I am simply repeating what I've heard is DEAD wrong. I am telling you what I have experienced and my hope in responding to you is not for me, but for you. I'm supposed to shake the dust off me feet at this point, but I'm too dang suborn to do it.

 

[watchman F]

This is why old preachers BANG on the pulpit. Oh well; I tried.

Try it with someone that doesn't know the word.

Romans 16
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Maybe you can fool the simple into believing your lie, after all someone got a hold of you.

 

[watchman F]

But, let me leave you with this. If you are finding that no one seems to believe the scriptures as you do; That the vast majority of Christians and men far more brilliant, who have spent their lives dedicated to the words of God, who have died for the faith...... disagree with what you have posted here....you might want to find out.

I said anymore. All the early first century christian closest to the scriptures and those that wrote them believed as I do on many subjects including this one that have since been distorted by satan. Paul prophecied of this day.

2nd Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[watchman F]

That my friend is giving up! that is sacrificing ones SELF. It wasn't until that took place did I finally know what was being said in all those dusty churches my parents and friends dragged me into. So, your notion that I am simply repeating what I've heard is DEAD wrong. I am telling you what I have experienced and my hope in responding to you is not for me, but for you. I'm supposed to shake the dust off me feet at this point, but I'm too dang suborn to do it.

I am glad you have had this experience of true conversion and self denial, and that you will not turn away. However that does not change what scripture says about people falling away from the faith.

 

[Danus]

That my friend is giving up! that is sacrificing ones SELF. It wasn't until that took place did I finally know what was being said in all those dusty churches my parents and friends dragged me into. So, your notion that I am simply repeating what I've heard is DEAD wrong. I am telling you what I have experienced and my hope in responding to you is not for me, but for you. I'm supposed to shake the dust off me feet at this point, but I'm too dang suborn to do it.

I am glad you have had this experience of true conversion and self denial, and that you will not turn away. However that does not change what scripture says about people falling away from the faith.

"The faith" and "Your Faith" are not the same. OSAS is about your faith.

 

[Danus]

uh, no, danus is saying that we arent able to sinless. unless you think that day you die there wont be any sin in your heart nor mouth or indeed. you need some grace.

will the lord send you to hell for speeding and loosing control of the vehicle and dying without repenting?

that type of death is quick so quick that you will only try to concentrate on saving your neck not trying to pray, though you may cry out, but for this argument you didnt. where will you be.

Thank you sir

 

[Danus]

This is why old preachers BANG on the pulpit. Oh well; I tried.

Try it with someone that doesn't know the word.

Romans 16
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Maybe you can fool the simple into believing your lie, after all someone got a hold of you.

Do you honestly think I'm trying to sell you something with lie? Or, maybe I'm so simple minded that all I can muster are these details of scripture?

You have yet to provide any details on your argument or refute exactly what I have presented. Trust me, I'm holding back. What I've laid out bets what you have presented and all you keep doing is repeating yourself, but not backing it up in anyway.

usually when a debate boils down to your opponent repeating themselves, trying to move away from the topic, or resorting to personal quips with no more to say on topic.....their done. Why don't you take the scriptures I presented and argue them or argue what I presented?

 

[shad]

"The faith" and "Your Faith" are not the same. OSAS is about your faith.

According to your faith, you cannot lose. According to Jesus you can lose your salvation if you are not faithful Him until the end.

You better listen to Jesus instead of making up your own salvation. Read the OP so you understand what He is saying.

 

[shad]

You have to get Christ in you first before you step out if you intend to be protected from sin.

If you have Christ in your life, you will strive to be faithful to Him until the end. Jesus says "if you love Me keep my commandments." Otherwise you will die in your sin.

 

[Danus]

"The faith" and "Your Faith" are not the same. OSAS is about your faith.

According to your faith, you cannot lose. According to Jesus you can lose your salvation if you are not faithful Him until the end.

Show me...prove what you claim. You show me where Jesus says you can loose your salvation. Show me where Jesus says that once you accept him in faith you better watch out or he'll take back your salvation. Build up your argument. I'll wait....you can't do it.

 

[jasoncran]

shad by your thinking if a muslim or jew obeys all the ten commandments, they will make it in heaven

both have those commandments.

 

[shad]

shad by your thinking if a muslim or jew obeys all the ten commandments, they will make it in heaven

both have those commandments.

They are not obeying God. If you dont accept Jesus, you cannot obey Jesus' commandments. They are killing each other because they don't know God and Jessus.

 

[jasoncran]

shad by your thinking if a muslim or jew obeys all the ten commandments, they will make it in heaven

both have those commandments.

They are not obeying God. If you dont accept Jesus, you cannot obey Jesus' commandments.

but the first two commandments are what the lord quoted. are they not?

in the ot it does say that if you see thine enemies ass thou shalt return it to him for it shall heap coals fire on his head.

 

[shad]

"The faith" and "Your Faith" are not the same. OSAS is about your faith.

According to your faith, you cannot lose. According to Jesus you can lose your salvation if you are not faithful Him until the end.

Show me...prove what you claim. You show me where Jesus says you can loose your salvation. Show me where Jesus says that once you accept him in faith you better watch out or he'll take back your salvation. Build up your argument. I'll wait....you can't do it.

Prove is my OP. They are all Jesus' words. You are claiming aginst Him. Jesus does not say you cannot lose salvation.

 

[watchman F]

Do you honestly think I'm trying to sell you something with lie? Or, maybe I'm so simple minded that all I can muster are these details of scripture?

If you believed scripture as they are written, as God meant them to be taken you would agree with me not be debating me.

You have yet to provide any details on your argument or refute exactly what I have presented. Trust me, I'm holding back. What I've laid out bets what you have presented and all you keep doing is repeating yourself, but not backing it up in anyway.

Scripture itself proves you wrong there is nothing more I need to say. You need to align your beliefs up with the word

usually when a debate boils down to your opponent repeating themselves, trying to move away from the topic, or resorting to personal quips with no more to say on topic.....their done. Why don't you take the scriptures I presented and argue them or argue what I presented?

Because you haven;t argued against anything you have simply deny the truth of scripture.

 

[shad]

Danus,

Jesus tells us how not to lose our salvation, not we cannot lose salvation.

 

[Danus]

Prove is my OP. They are all Jesus' words. You are claiming against Him. Jesus does not say you cannot lose salvation.

No it's not. None of those scriptures you posted have anything to do with loosing salvation. I've challenged a couple of them and never hear a word from you on my direct challenge. Standing firm to the end is having faith. Your original post does not prove your claim that we can loose our salvation.

Let's take a few of those scriptures and talk about them. That's my challenge to you. Give me three scriptures you like the most, that you think proves that Jesus says he's take back your salvation and let's discuss it. you pick them.

 

[Danus]

Do you honestly think I'm trying to sell you something with lie? Or, maybe I'm so simple minded that all I can muster are these details of scripture?

If you believed scripture as they are written, as God meant them to be taken you would agree with me not be debating me.

You have yet to provide any details on your argument or refute exactly what I have presented. Trust me, I'm holding back. What I've laid out bets what you have presented and all you keep doing is repeating yourself, but not backing it up in anyway.

Scripture itself proves you wrong there is nothing more I need to say. You need to align your beliefs up with the word

[quote:24crmkbd]usually when a debate boils down to your opponent repeating themselves, trying to move away from the topic, or resorting to personal quips with no more to say on topic.....their done. Why don't you take the scriptures I presented and argue them or argue what I presented?

Because you haven;t argued against anything you have simply deny the truth of scripture.[/quote:24crmkbd]

I think it's you "simply" denying. I gave you details on two scriptures you used and I got nothing back from you on how I am wrong. Furthermore I gave you a bunch more scripture and neither you nor shad had anything to say about them.......You post and I argue in detail and all I get back are crickets and bull frogs on the details, then you might restate what you said in the OP. That's about it.

Let's go through the scriptures, or better yet tell me how what I've written about two of the scriptures you gave is wrong.

Here is my assessment of Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

First what is the context? Jesus is giving the sermon on the mnt. Specifically in Chp 7 Jesus starts by addressing judging others. He gives us a string of advice. He warns us about false profits and says we will know them by the fruit they bare.... then he says 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.....so what does this mean? It seems to mean that not everyone who claims to believe will in fact believe, or be real in their faith.
Further we see.....
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....This speaks of works. It's classic self righteousness....it's as if to say "did we not do good by our own efforts? I mean I called myself a Christian and I did all the things. I tried real hard!" 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' .....So are the evil doers the ones with faith? Or, the ones with said faith and works? If we get anything from this text Jesus is distinguishing between two types of Christians, if you will. Those who have faith in him for their salvation and those who have faith in themselves and their own efforts for their salvation.

Show me where I'm wrong.

 

[Mysteryman]

Do you honestly think I'm trying to sell you something with lie? Or, maybe I'm so simple minded that all I can muster are these details of scripture?

If you believed scripture as they are written, as God meant them to be taken you would agree with me not be debating me.

You have yet to provide any details on your argument or refute exactly what I have presented. Trust me, I'm holding back. What I've laid out bets what you have presented and all you keep doing is repeating yourself, but not backing it up in anyway.

Scripture itself proves you wrong there is nothing more I need to say. You need to align your beliefs up with the word

[quote:102fg44h]usually when a debate boils down to your opponent repeating themselves, trying to move away from the topic, or resorting to personal quips with no more to say on topic.....their done. Why don't you take the scriptures I presented and argue them or argue what I presented?

Because you haven;t argued against anything you have simply deny the truth of scripture.

I think it's you "simply" denying. I gave you details on two scriptures you used and I got nothing back from you on how I am wrong. Furthermore I gave you a bunch more scripture and neither you nor shad had anything to say about them.......You post and I argue in detail and all I get back are crickets and bull frogs on the details, then you might restate what you said in the OP. That's about it.

Let's go through the scriptures, or better yet tell me how what I've written about two of the scriptures you gave is wrong.

Here is my assessment of Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

First what is the context? Jesus is giving the sermon on the mnt. Specifically in Chp 7 Jesus starts by addressing judging others. He gives us a string of advice. He warns us about false profits and says we will know them by the fruit they bare.... then he says 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.....so what does this mean? It seems to mean that not everyone who claims to believe will in fact believe, or be real in their faith.
Further we see.....
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....This speaks of works. It's classic self righteousness....it's as if to say "did we not do good by our own efforts? I mean I called myself a Christian and I did all the things. I tried real hard!" 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' .....So are the evil doers the ones with faith? Or, the ones with said faith and works? If we get anything from this text Jesus is distinguishing between two types of Christians, if you will. Those who have faith in him for their salvation and those who have faith in themselves and their own efforts for their salvation.

Show me where I'm wrong.[/quote:102fg44h]

Hi Danus

I do not believe that you are wrong in what you just stated.(which means I agree ) But I think I might have added , that without love , all works and works of faith are worthless.

Love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up - I Corinth. 13:4

Bless