According to Jesus...

[veteran]

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(KJV)

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Looks to me that those who believe in the OSAS doctrine that still do those things have much to worry about.

 

[Danus]

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(KJV)

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Looks to me that those who believe in the OSAS doctrine that still do those things have much to worry about.

Yes sir. I agree, but is tasting the heavenly gift, or being enlightened, or even experiencing the Holly Ghost being saved? Is that accepting Christ in faith?

I can walk into a doughnut shop and see doughnuts, smell them, maybe even place my tongue to taste one if they'd let me, but If I don't eat one I'm left hungry. If I leave after doing those things without eating one I've turned away from eating one. That would be my loss. I would be saying "these donuts are not good enough for me"..... I know am making a silly analogy, but that's how I see the meaning of Heb 6:4-8.

It's important to note that the book of Hebrews was speaking to Jews who would prefer to back slide to their ways and temple sacrifices for their salvation rather then accept what they where checking out at the time. So in my silly analogy, let's say there is a doughnut shop that I've been going to for years and was told these are the best doughnut's in the world. Then a new doughnut shop opens across the street that says these doughnuts are better. I go over there and check it out like I mentioned before, but I don't accept the new shop and go back to the old one. How then can I know if I don't try the new doughnuts?... Doughnuts aside, that's what the book of Hebrews is about...putting away the old method of salvation and accepting the new, which is Christ. It's not speaking of those who are saved in Christ. It's talking to those who have heard the word, checked it out, but fell away from it....did not accept it. It's talking to Jews of that day who where questioning this new thing called Christianity. The warning is to them and anyone who does not accept the salvation that God offered us through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Those of us who are saved by are faith in Christ do not need to make temple sacrifices for our salvation. We have accepted Christ in full faith and we are saved from that moment on. We can not loose that. Are we perfect and sinless? nope...is anyone else perfect and sinless? nope...then what's the difference? The difference is that while none of us are perfect and sinless Christ is. Once we accept Christ in faith we are letting Christ lead our lives and that's where the change in us begins, with Christ leading us, not us leading us in accordance to Christ because we can't do that...why? because we are not perfect and sinless...he is.

OSAS are not people who accept Christ and go around willfully sinning, or think that they can just because they have accepted Christ. That's not what OSAS teaches at all. You can abstain from all the sins mentioned in Gal 5:19-21 and still you are a sinner. But, you can't abstain from all the sins mentioned in Gal 5:19-21 and be saved without accepting Christ in faith.

 

[Danus]

Hi Danus

I do not believe that you are wrong in what you just stated.(which means I agree ) But I think I might have added , that without love , all works and works of faith are worthless.

Love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up - I Corinth. 13:4

Bless

Yes indeed. It's the love of Christ in us that makes anything we do glorious to God.

I know a few atheist and agnostics who are "good" people who volunteer their times for great causes and such, but sadly such deeds alone will not save them. These are the same people I hear talking up what they do and how "good" they are yet they consider themselves to be altruistic. If they truly where, why do they have to tell the word about themselves and their good deeds?

 

[veteran]

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(KJV)

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Looks to me that those who believe in the OSAS doctrine that still do those things have much to worry about.

Yes sir. I agree, but is tasting the heavenly gift, or being enlightened, or even experiencing the Holly Ghost being saved? Is that accepting Christ in faith?

Yes that's about Christ's Salvation, otherwise those gifts of the world to come would not manifest through the believer in good standing.

It's important to note that the book of Hebrews was speaking to Jews who would prefer to back slide to their ways and temple sacrifices for their salvation rather then accept what they where checking out at the time.

It's speaking to all Christ's Body The Church. When it comes to God's Word in the New Testament, it is relevant to all Christians, regardless of national origins. In essence, the whole Bible is. Did you know God's Word defines the type of 'mark' He uses to seal His servants with that are Christians? It's in the Old Testament Books. Some might think, "Well how can that be in the Old Testament, since Christ hadn't yet come to die on the cross?" Those who do a selective Bible study in only part of it are missing a lot.

OSAS are not people who accept Christ and go around willfully sinning, or think that they can just because they have accepted Christ. That's not what OSAS teaches at all. You can abstain from all the sins mentioned in Heb 6:4-8 and still you are a sinner. But, you can't abstain from all the sins mentioned in Heb 6:4-8 and be saved without accepting Christ in faith.

Yes the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" does create the situation in the minds of some who are taught it that they no longer have to repent to Christ of their on-going sins. That then leads to not checking their status out with Christ.

It's good for us to do a review of our behaviour and repent. Any doctrine or idea that goes against our need to repent of our on-going sins will mislead us. That's why the OSAS doctrine is dangerous. Apostle Paul rebuked many that had used that idea.

 

[watchman F]

It's good for us to do a review of our behaviour and repent. Any doctrine or idea that goes against our need to repent of our on-going sins will mislead us. That's why the OSAS doctrine is dangerous. Apostle Paul rebuked many that had used that idea.

I agree veteran, and just like people we need to judge doctrine by its fruit as well. Not only does OSAS oppose scripture, it bares nothing but bad fruit. It is a very dangerous doctrine that will cost many people their eternal souls.

 

[Danus]

There are those on this thread who say that there is no assurance of one’s salvation. That in order to be saved you must be without sin. That God will turn from you if you slip up and that the only hope you have is that maybe your good enough for God, but most likely your not. Only a few will make it to heaven.

How utterly sad, uninspiring, hopeless, pathetic and biblically untrue is such a belief.

If that is your view, may I suggest to you that you know little of faith. You still are a slave to yourself and that you have not sacrificed yourself nature because you are too afraid, even though Christ says you must before you can truly follow him.

What a great time we live in today that we can have our very own bibles. That we can read the bible on the internet, or go to the store, or to any church and get one. That in most countries we are not kept from the word by governments or organized religions.

It was not always that way. In fact some religious organizations even sanctioned death for those who might own a bible of their own bible. The Catholic Church led the way in keeping bibles out of the hands of so many for so long, but even today I wonder how many own or read the good word.

Faith is what we are called to have, and too many people who call themselves Christians have little to none of it. Too many would rather lock themselves up into thinking they must follow some the rules for their salvation rather than explore what faith is. They choose instead not accept that Christ paid the ultimate price for them so that they might have eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

When confronted with the truth they simply stick their fingers in their ears and say “la la la …I can’t hear you.†They would rather lean on themselves and their own efforts than to trust in Jesus Christ. They say you can’t have a personal relationship with Christ.

Ridiculous! Unbiblical, and anyone who has read a bible can see it clearly.

Again, how sad and ridiculous. How does God use anyone with that type of thinking; with such puny and weak faith as that? How are they even blessed at all?

If that is you, I don’t know how big your God is, but mine is way bigger. My God does not turn his back on those who have accepted him in faith. Faith he says, can move mountains and it is what is required for those who truly want to follow Christ, but it takes letting go and that take courage.

Faith brothers, is courage; Courage to stand up and print bibles for the masses and be killed for it; Courage to face lions just because you refuse to give up your belief; Courage to work in the mission field, wherever they are. You can not face this life, this world without the type of courage that faith gives you when you truly believe in Jesus Christ

May I say to you that the greatest accomplishment in life is often straight through your biggest fear. That’s extreme faith. That’s the type of result that my God offers for those who have real faith, and for those who have experienced know that there is no turning back from. That’s the type of faith that allows a believer to stand firm to the end, it’s what Christ was talking about, and if you have it, you know you are in fact saved. It’s a requirement if you are to have salvation.

Many people stand to the edge of having it, but they are too afraid to accept it. People who know what OSAS really is, know the truth of what faith is. They have experienced what is does and they are made so much stronger for it. People who have faith in Jesus Christ are happy and inspiring in their walk with Christ. They share a personal relationship with Christ. They can do ANYTHING through that faith.

I challenge anyone here to try it for just three months. There is something in your life that you have wanted to do or have been nudged by God to do, but you’re too afraid to have faith in Christ to it. You know what it is. I challenge you to do it, but with faith in Christ that it will produce good fruit, not that your efforts will, but that the faith you apply in Christ to that task will. Try it. No one has to know but you and God. You try it and see. I know that if you do, you will see what faith is, but you let Christ work through you and stop relaying on your own efforts. …That’s what OSAS is about and you can’t understand it if you have not experienced real faith in Jesus Christ.

So why do people think OSAS is false doctrine?

• They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.
"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26
• They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
• They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.
"Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13
• They trust in their own righteousness.
". . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . ." Isaiah 64:6
• They misapply and misunderstand scriptures.
They misapply scriptures such as Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26 to the church age of grace, when they doctrinally apply to the tribulation or the millenium.
• They have NEVER been saved.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21


That's all I'm going to say on it. I'll leave my words to be butchered by those who choose not to believe.

 

[watchman F]

There are those on this thread who say that there is no assurance of one’s salvation. That in order to be saved you must be without sin. That God will turn from you if you slip up and that the only hope you have is that maybe your good enough for God, but most likely your not.

I haven;t seen anyone in this thread say anything close to what you have described here. Are you sure this isn't just a straw man you have created in your own mind so you can argue against it?

There are those on this thread who say....Only a few will make it to heaven.

I believe it was Jesus that said this???
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[watchman F]

So why do people think OSAS is false doctrine?

• They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.
"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26
• They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
• They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.
"Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13
• They trust in their own righteousness.
". . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . ." Isaiah 64:6
• They misapply and misunderstand scriptures.
They misapply scriptures such as Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26 to the church age of grace, when they doctrinally apply to the tribulation or the millenium.
• They have NEVER been saved.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21


That's all I'm going to say on it. I'll leave my words to be butchered by those who choose not to believe.

Oddly enough this is why I say people do believe in OSAS

 

[jasoncran]

shad by your thinking if a muslim or jew obeys all the ten commandments, they will make it in heaven

both have those commandments.

They are not obeying God. If you dont accept Jesus, you cannot obey Jesus' commandments. They are killing each other because they don't know God and Jessus.

not all jews like that war, i am hebrew my family for the most part(my dad) taught me this that the palenstine has the same right to the land as we do and that we should live in harmony.

in america the hasidic jew is very devout and kosher. follows the ot laws with all their might.

since you are implying that jesus work on the cross isnt enough to cleanse you then why cant the others who follow the very intent of what jesus did and is(the logos, or very word).of the Father.

 

[shad]

since you are implying that jesus work on the cross isnt enough to cleanse you then why cant the others who follow the very intent of what jesus did and is(the logos, or very word).of the Father.

When you became is believer, didn't you vow to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Then why don't you obey what He says?

Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commandments". In other words, if you don't honor His teachings and commandments you don't love Him. Do you think you are saved if you don't love Him?

You don't seem to take His commandments seriously. If you did, you would not argue the way you do.

 

[shad]

Let's take a few of those scriptures and talk about them. That's my challenge to you. Give me three scriptures you like the most, that you think proves that Jesus says he's take back your salvation and let's discuss it. you pick them.

I will get back to this, I was busy today and I think I have time tomorrow.

thanks.

 

[jasoncran]

since you are implying that jesus work on the cross isnt enough to cleanse you then why cant the others who follow the very intent of what jesus did and is(the logos, or very word).of the Father.

When you became is believer, didn't you vow to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Then why don't you obey what He says?

Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commandments". In other words, if you don't honor His teachings and commandments you don't love Him. Do you think you are saved if you don't love Him?

You don't seem to take His commandments seriously. If you did, you would not argue the way you do.

i'm not but you are confused on this.

you assume that you can all by your self change, at once upon salvation that grace isnt enough

when its really like this

faith alone and upon genuine repentance the works will follow as evidence of that love of christ in you.

one can be divorced and still do things for the ex, ie send money, and fix the house, and i know of one who has periodic sex with his ex wife, but he dont love her any more just has a good time.

that is what that can be alluded to

please shad, i have just seen a young man kill himself over the weekend, i am in no mood to bicker over what your asume that i do, and juudge me accordingly

and truth be told that previous argument that i used is from one who thinks just like you, and you often go amen with.

 

[shad]

you assume that you can all by your self change,

No Jason, no one is saying that we can change all by ourselves. Jesus says we can do anything with God's help. If we are truly His and serving God with all our might, the Holy spirit will help us to overcome our weakness and shortcomings, and fill up what we are missing by ignorance. But we cannot or should not just dismiss sins that we know is sin; this is what I am talking about. There are so many clear sins that we are not taking seriously and living in sin.

 

[shad]

Let's take a few of those scriptures and talk about them. That's my challenge to you. Give me three scriptures you like the most, that you think proves that Jesus says he's take back your salvation and let's discuss it. you pick them.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

How about we go one by one? Let's discuss this verse first.

 

[jasoncran]

you assume that you can all by your self change,

No Jason, no one is saying that we can change all by ourselves. Jesus says we can do anything with God's help. If we are truly His and serving God with all our might, the Holy spirit will help us to overcome our weakness and shortcomings, and fill up what we are missing by ignorance. But we cannot or should not just dismiss sins that we know is sin; this is what I am talking about. There are so many clear sins that we are not taking seriously and living in sin.

who says that we eternal security guys imply that sin is ok, we dont.

perhaps you should listen to old time pastors before that were born and saved prior to the 80's

men like these that have a godly track record

david jeremiah
adrian rogers(deceased)
aw.tozer
james mcdonald
rc sproul
d.l.moody
and others

all of the above preach against sin and are into holiness, sproul is a calvinist.

 

[shad]

Yes the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" does create the situation in the minds of some who are taught it that they no longer have to repent to Christ of their on-going sins. That then leads to not checking their status out with Christ.

It's good for us to do a review of our behaviour and repent. Any doctrine or idea that goes against our need to repent of our on-going sins will mislead us. That's why the OSAS doctrine is dangerous. Apostle Paul rebuked many that had used that idea.

Exactly. That's why it is devil's doctrine.

 

[shad]

all of the above preach against sin and are into holiness, sproul is a calvinist.

That's strange, I have heard many times that when obedience is being preached they always call it "legalism". They are always sending mixed messages because they dont want to turn people off.

Jesus says that you cannot lose your salvation unless you are being disobedient to Him. In other words, you lose your salvation if you are not obedient to Him until the end.

 

[jasoncran]

then veteran reconcile hebrews 6 and if its lost then theres no point in teaching that you can repent.

cause by that verse being used in that manner you cant be saved more than once, its lost its done.

 

[shad]

Jason, if they preach against sin, then why are they approving killing your enemy?

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, if they preach against sin, then why are they approving killing your enemy?

please shad if that the case why do we follow THE LAWS, for if we witness a murfer in progress and fail to act to save a life by calling the cops, we just assisted the criminal.

second using your logic , please tell me this are you guilty of murder when you call the cops and they protect you and kill after all means of non lethal means are used first or the suspect starts with the use of deadly force.

if you say that you are innocent then you have just killed your arguement. if let him get away, and never call the cops to assist you are guilty of a crime.