After Death/Now or Later - Rest/Judgement or Heaven/Hell

[Butch5]

Wow, so much false presentation here you're making my head spin. Who are these 'people' that go to Hades and are resurrected on earth? You do understand that Jesus is alive in Heaven right now and that you must be born again in the Holy Spirit in this lifetime to enter Holy Land, right? Please tell me you understand that. Yeah you're right, the prophets of Jesus never preached the Kingdom of God, lol. Are you a Jehovah Witness where you believe Satan came to earth on October 1st, 1914? Sorry to break it to you but Christ does not send his people to Hades. Sinners that don't repent send themselves to Hades by their unbelief in who Jesus Christ is. Who is Jesus Christ to you?

Nothing I've said here is incorrect. Hades is the grave, that is why I asked you to define hell. Everyone who dies goes to the grave they remain there until the resurrection. The wicked will be sent into Gehenna after the resurrection. You asked who will be resurrected, that would be everyone.

26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.(Joh 5:26-29 NKJ)

Yes, I am aware that Jesus is in Heaven, however, that doesn't mean people are. The idea of going to Heaven is not a Christian teaching, it has Gnositc roots.

To answer your question, no, I'm not JW.

 

[Guest]

Nothing I've said here is incorrect. Hades is the grave, that is why I asked you to define hell. Everyone who dies goes to the grave they remain there until the resurrection. The wicked will be sent into Gehenna after the resurrection. You asked who will be resurrected, that would be everyone.

Ok, let's not get debate confused here. Whether heaven and hell are empty right now is not the point of debate. No, the righteous do not go to Hades/Hell. You're mistaking the grave as in your grave in the ground. You mean everyone is resurrected for judgement at the judgement throne, then the wicked are cast into hell and the righteous are sent to heaven. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice.....says nothing about Hades/Hell. This means graves as in the grave you are in with tombstones. graveyards!!

 

[jasoncran]

sheol is done away with when jesus died and ascended according to most scholars.

 

[Guest]

sheol is done away with when jesus died and ascended according to most scholars.

Scholars be wrong, scholars building worldly reputations probably; unless you have scripture to back that up. You're probably thinking about how blood is no longer sacrificial because of the blood on the cross. Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

that is because sheol was a place for the righteous dead and also the wicked. hades has a similar idea.
ever heard of the mourners kaddish? its older then the bible. its still done.with that comes the that a rabbi may die and be so holy that he may draw souls to the after life with him.

sheol was for jewish saints and sinners.it never had gentiles in it.why isn't sheol mentioned in the last book? hades isn't sheol to the jews. similar but its not

 

[Guest]

that is because sheol was a place for the righteous dead and also the wicked. hades has a similar idea.
ever heard of the mourners kaddish? its older then the bible. its still done.with that comes the that a rabbi may die and be so holy that he may draw souls to the after life with him.

sheol was for jewish saints and sinners.it never had gentiles in it.why isn't sheol mentioned in the last book? hades isn't sheol to the jews. similar but its not

yeah it's still done under false gods? i'm speaking of the hell that Jesus preached.

 

[jasoncran]

it interesting that the idea of Abrahams bosom isn't found outside of the gospel. if it was I would know. I buried relatives that are jews. so I looked to see if there was any teaching on it from Chassidic jews.

alas maybe jesus wasn't a jew and would confirm or deny jewish oral teachings.

but he did with the idea of the resurrection.the resurrection of the just and unjust comes from the oral teachings and isn't found in the tanach.

 

[Guest]

it interesting that the idea of Abrahams bosom isn't found outside of the gospel. if it was I would know. I buried relatives that are jews. so I looked to see if there was any teaching on it from Chassidic jews.

alas maybe jesus wasn't a jew and would confirm or deny jewish oral teachings.

but he did with the idea of the resurrection.the resurrection of the just and unjust comes from the oral teachings and isn't found in the tanach.

Are you able to support with scripture and not deny what the rest of the gospels are saying about eternal fire and torment in hell? Resurrection of the unjust? There is only one way to God the Father, what is that way? What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?

 

[jasoncran]

if you want to judge me by this forum as unsaved be my guest.

1) I guess im lost because I do believe in the blood
2)I came to Christ from a jw background and had to unlearn all my non-Trinitarian arguments and other doctrines. few men helped me it was god that did it all.
3) I prefer since im a jew and was lead at salvation not be read John but genesis to see the new testament from the tanachs angle.God lead me to do that
4) the jews are the only race whereby God used their culture to relate to men.so I like to learn about their ways.

jesus knew the torah and taught it to the jews in words and deeds, he quoted moses and the prophets and were they, the Pharisees went wrong.

if Abrahams bosom was sheol then why isn't it by name mentioned in the tanach?

barnes makes a good case on that. he(jesus) used that parable of the afterlife to show and teach on hell. its posted in that thread that is closed.

now then where in the bible does it say that one must believe in hell to be saved?if it was required to have a perfect grasp of difficult imagery. then I would postulate that most pre-tribbers are lost since they often ignore the context of the verses to make their case.

I see hell as the same. I have talked to those that aren't for hell here and know that some do teach the blood is needed.try not to group them all with the uu types or the jw's.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=50255&p=781283#post781283

 

[jasoncran]

oh btw I don't deny the idea of the resurrection of the unjust and just. its not in writing in the tanach but an oral idea from various teachings,and the tanach.
nor did I say that there wasn't any hell. just that well what he call hell and define as hell may come from non biblical ideas

ie
norse myths.

do norse myths line up with statements of Christ?is there a level to hell? is there a special place for the axman the killed john the Baptist? is there a place or level for judas?

if so show me where it says that?

 

[Guest]

now then where in the bible does it say that one must believe in hell to be saved?

It doesn't, that wasn't the argument. All a sinner has to know is that Jesus is their Lord and Savior and to believe and confess. Romans 10:9

oh btw I don't deny the idea of the resurrection of the unjust and just. its not in writing in the tanach but an oral idea from various teachings,and the tanach. nor did I say that there wasn't any hell. just that well what he call hell and define as hell may come from non biblical ideas.

But Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:24 and Revelation 20:10 are written in the Bible, these are non biblical scriptures? What does the tanach say about having to be born again in the Holy Spirit in this lifetime in order to see the kingdom of God after death? Do you know who wrote the Bible?

is there a level to hell? is there a special place for the axman the killed john the Baptist? is there a place or level for judas? if so show me where it says that?

I'm not God, I don't know their levels of judgement in hell, but scripture teaches me that I must be born again of the Holy Spirit first to see the kingdom of God. Scripture for Judas the false prophet - Revelation 20:10

 

[Butch5]

Ok, let's not get debate confused here. Whether heaven and hell are empty right now is not the point of debate. No, the righteous do not go to Hades/Hell. You're mistaking the grave as in your grave in the ground. You mean everyone is resurrected for judgement at the judgement throne, then the wicked are cast into hell and the righteous are sent to heaven. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice.....says nothing about Hades/Hell. This means graves as in the grave you are in with tombstones. graveyards!!

Hades is the grave, that is where everyone goes when they die. They remain in the grave until the resurrection. First the righteous will be raised and reign in the kingdom with Christ for 1000 years. At the end of the thousand years the rest will be raised and judge. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that Christians go to Heaven. The Scriptures say that the righteous will inherit the earth and dwell in it forever. Jesus also said the righteous shall inherit the earth.

 

[Guest]

Hades is the grave, that is where everyone goes when they die. They remain in the grave until the resurrection.

I see that you do not have scripture to back up that the righteous will also be in Hades. The fact that you think graves means Hades in scripture is your belief. Why would God mix in his righteous people with sinners and the defiled?

 

[Butch5]

I see that you do not have scripture to back up that the righteous will also be in Hades. The fact that you think graves means Hades in scripture is your belief. Why would God mix in his righteous people with sinners and the defiled?

Was Christ righteous? He went to Hades.

34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
35 And all his sons and his daughters gathered themselves together, and came to comfort him; but he would not be comforted, saying, I will go down to my son mourning to Hades; and his father wept for him. (Gen 37:34-35 LXE)

3 O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from Hades, thou hast delivered me from among them that go down to the pit. (Psa 30:3 LXE)

13 For if I remain, Hades is my habitation: and my bed has been made in darkness.
14 I have called upon death to be my father, and corruption to be my mother and sister.
15 Where then is yet my hope? or where shall I see my good?
16 Will they go down with me to Hades, or shall we go down together to the tomb? (Job 17:13-16 LXE)



LXE Ecclesiastes 9:1 I saw that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: yea, there is no man that knows either love or hatred, though all are before their face.
2 Vanity is in all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good, and to the bad; both to the pure, and to the impure; both to him that sacrifices, and to him that sacrifice not: as is the good, so is the sinner: as is the swearer, even so is he that fears an oath.
3 There is this evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event to all: yea, the heart of the sons of men is filled with evil, and madness is in their heart during their life, and after that they go to the dead.
4 for who is he that has fellowship with all the living? there is hope of him: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost.
6 also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, have now perished; yea, there is no portion for them any more for ever in all that is done under the sun.
7 Go, eat thy bread with mirth, and drink thy wine with a joyful heart; for now God has favourably accepted thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let not oil be wanting on thine head.
9 And see life with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which are given thee under the sun: for that is thy portion in thy life, and in thy labour wherein thou labourest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do, do with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Hades wither thou goest. (Ecc 9:1-10 LXE)

There are more and I could also provide quotes from the earliest Christians saying the same thing

 

[jasoncran]

scholars do believe that Christ died and went to hades.

so what did he preach to? if the dead have no souls?

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

the dead saints rose after his death. its recorded in matthew.

 

[Grappler]

1. Are we resting in our graves waiting for judgement, or are we judged and sent to heaven/hell now.
2. Is Heaven/Hell filled up with the righteous and sinners right now or is it empty for the time being. 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 2 Kings 2:11.
3. Do only certain prophets go to heaven and the rest have to wait.
4. Why all the testimonies in the world about people seeing the white light or visiting heaven and hell now.

1. When you say 'we' i assume you really don't mean 'we' since we are alive and on the internet now...so i assume you are talking about the dead. The dead are "asleep" most waiting for the resurrection of condemnation and some waiting on the resurrrection to eternal life. 2. Heaven/Hell is not 'filled up'...actually Hell in the sense of the lake of fire doesn't exsist yet. 3. No, certain prophets do not go to heaven either...they are R.I.P. 4. Don't believe everything you hear...besides Lucifer and his angels/demons are at work deceiving people

 

[Free]

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

Clearly this is speaking of both the righteous and unrighteous dead. The conditional statement in verse 15 obviously implies that "if anyone's name was found written in the book of life, he was not thrown into the lake of fire." And that is inclusive of the dead found in Hades.

 

[jasoncran]

jesus and paul mention a resurrection of the just and the unjust.

 

[Guest]

Ecclesiastes 9:1

Ok, now I understand. I'm starting to learn the terms behind Hades, Gehenna, Hell and the Lake of Fire. Why so many different names to describe something after death? The Hades that you're describing has no conscience or life, and are awaiting judgement. I can understand that, but what's the difference in saying that the grave you're in under your tombstone is different than Hades grave. It's the same thing, with no conscience. I don't understand what you're trying to get across. Please further your argument. Blessings.

so what did Jesus preach to? if the dead have no souls?

Good question, maybe Butch knows. Some might say when Jesus died, he descended into hell and preached to the dead. But if they have no conscience, why do it?

The conditional statement in verse 15 obviously implies that "if anyone's name was found written in the book of life, he was not thrown into the lake of fire." And that is inclusive of the dead found in Hades.

Excellent point Free, we might want to take notes of this. What's the difference between graves with tombstones and the dead in Hades, both have no conscience. No conscience, no suffering. Only after judgement will there be suffering for the wicked. ? Let's further this argument. Blessings.

jesus and paul mention a resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Yes, for judgement only. Then they go their separate ways, heaven or hell.

 

[jasoncran]

I asked my assistant pastor on this. I got some studying to do on hell. barnes will have it. that is whom he quoted.

a whole lot of jumping around.

btw job mentions sheol being a place to hide from god. how does one hide from God in death?