After Death/Now or Later - Rest/Judgement or Heaven/Hell

[John 8:32]

fine I will use then the greek literal translation which says within.

or this analogy. if I leave America and live in france. does that meanI American no more? no it doesn't.it means that we are citizens of the kingdom.

I will use the entire verse

but first literal translated as the ylt does that and its meant to.




now then they wanted to see a literal kingdom as that says. but its not. its in us. if you don't believe that you are in the kingdom as child and citizen and have no rights to the father then you have denied the faith.


barnes above.

So you are saying that this scripture...

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

really means within you as inside of you?

He is speaking to whom?

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

These guys?

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

If you don't mind, I'll stick with the word translated "among" you.

 

[Guest]

If you don't mind, I'll stick with the word translated "among" you.

Why wouldn't you think it's within. Think about it, when a person reaches salvation what is he baptized with? What does the word baptize mean, outside or inside of you? Scripture says we are sealed until redemption. How can we be sealed with something if it doesn't reside on the inside of us?

 

[Free]

Why wouldn't you think it's within. Think about it, when a person reaches salvation what is he baptized with? What does the word baptize mean, outside or inside of you? Scripture says we are sealed until redemption. How can we be sealed with something if it doesn't reside on the inside of us?

"Within" doesn't really work given the context, for the reasons Butch5 gave. It is much better being understood as "among" as it fits the context and is likely a reference to Jesus himself, working miracles and doing Kingdom things.

But, I ask again, what does this have to do with the topic?


totopic

 

[John 8:32]

"Within" doesn't really work given the context, for the reasons Butch5 gave. It is much better being understood as "among" as it fits the context and is likely a reference to Jesus himself, working miracles and doing Kingdom things.

But, I ask again, what does this have to do with the topic?


totopic

My apologies and you are correct, so let's get this train back on the track.

Scripture indicates that those in Christ are dead (Christ and Paul both use the word sleep) until the resurrection...

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus says all that are in the graves, the only ones left out here would be those alive at the time that this hour comes. Paul agrees and shows that the resurrection occurs at Christ's coming...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul shows the timing is plainly at the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets, so the seventh trumper is the last. We see this

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The kingdoms of the world are not Christ's currently...

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.


I would also take the OP question as whether we go to heaven or hell immediately upon death and the answer to that is neither.

 

[Guest]

Confirming the topic of thread, it seems to be that christians and also unbelievers who die go to Hades grave to rest until judgement. Take heed though, if you are not written in the book of life your destination will be hell. We ALL have a choice in this lifetime to choose. God loves you and wants a personal relationship with you. God is not mad at you, he wants you to repent of your sins and love on you and guide you. Will you make the choice today? Blessings.

 

[Butch5]

It's not my opinion, it's a fact based on the resurrection of Jesus. Yes I've heard before, within means among. The fact of the matter is that, it's both. When the kingdom of God dwells within a believer, the light shines outwardly and crushes darkness! Butch, have you ever tried preaching the gospel in a strip bar in Las Vegas? Light vs. Dark. What exactly is the good news that you're preaching? What are you gonna tell a world that is filled with sin and darkness?? If you look at the KJV version, it has 'within'. Within means within, among means the light that is in you shines brighter than the darkness in this world.

The kingdom of God was definitely not in the Pharisees. The Pharisees were religious bumbs, and guess what. Jesus pissed off the Pharisees because they didn't understand who Jesus was preaching about. God the Father!! Jesus didn't say the kingdom was in the pharisees, rather he was teaching them about where the kingdom of God lives through faith!! The Pharisees lacked faith! This was simply a teaching by Jesus. He wasn't speaking about the Pharisees spiritual condition, no. Rather, he was speaking too the Pharisees as in take heed!!!

What Jesus was really saying to the pharisees is that the kingdom of God is within ME!! ME, Jesus standing in front of you. When Jesus was teaching this to the pharisees, the pharisees didn't understand that all this time the kingdom was inside the body of Jesus. The pharisees didn't understand that all the pieces of the puzzle would come together after Jesus died! The pharisees didn't understand that if you have faith and believe on his name, you will be saved. Do you understand now? HIS body/mind/soul/spirit IS the kingdom of God! Do you see the purpose in the death of Jesus now? Blessings.

The kingdom of God is within you and also among you, but most importantly it's within you! Ask yourself, what do you think we're sealed with until redemption? The Holy Spirit!!!! Ephesians 4:30 - Who is God the Father to you, what is your belief in who Jesus Christ is? Study his resurrection and you will find answers.

Hi Urk,

Jesus made that statement to the Pharisees, He said, to them the kingdom of God is among you. This fits the context nicely. If we translate it "within you" it means He was saying the kingdom was within the Pharisees. You may not like that but that is what it would mean. We can't just rearrange things to suit our likes or dislikes. I haven't seen anything in Scripture where Jesus said to a believer the kingdom of God is within you. I think it is better to translate the word how it best fits the context.

 

[Butch5]

"Within" doesn't really work given the context, for the reasons Butch5 gave. It is much better being understood as "among" as it fits the context and is likely a reference to Jesus himself, working miracles and doing Kingdom things.

But, I ask again, what does this have to do with the topic?


totopic

I agree, I believe Jesus was referring to Himself. I guess it is off topic though.

 

[Guest]

Hi Urk,

Jesus made that statement to the Pharisees, He said, to them the kingdom of God is among you. This fits the context nicely. If we translate it "within you" it means He was saying the kingdom was within the Pharisees. You may not like that but that is what it would mean. We can't just rearrange things to suit our likes or dislikes. I haven't seen anything in Scripture where Jesus said to a believer the kingdom of God is within you. I think it is better to translate the word how it best fits the context.

Butch, you're not understanding what I'm saying. Forget the among and within for a second and listen to what I'm saying. Jesus wasn't speaking of their spiritual condition, he was teaching them prophecy. Do you understand? The Pharisees HATED Jesus, they didn't understand Jesus. Why would they accept what Jesus was saying? Yes Jesus was referring to himself, so where does the prophecy occur? WHEN HE DIES!! What happened to Jesus when he died??

 

[Butch5]

Butch, you're not understanding what I'm saying. Forget the among and within for a second and listen to what I'm saying. Jesus wasn't speaking of their spiritual condition, he was teaching them prophecy. Do you understand? The Pharisees HATED Jesus, they didn't understand Jesus. Why would they accept what Jesus was saying? Yes Jesus was referring to himself, so where does the prophecy occur? WHEN HE DIES!! What happened to Jesus when he died??

What prophecy? He said the kingdom was among them. That's not a prophecy it's a statement of fact.

 

[Guest]

What prophecy? He said the kingdom was among them. That's not a prophecy it's a statement of fact.

Yes it was among them, but the pharisees didn't know what in the world he was talking about. Jesus was talking about himself! The prophecy came true at the cross when Jesus died. What happened to Jesus when he died? What are we sealed with in Ephesians 4:30. Being sealed with something!

Let me try to paint a picture for you. Say your moving from home to home and you put your dishes and glasses in a box. You seal the box up with tape, what's inside? Your dishes and glasses. When we believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, God the Father fills us with his Holy Spirit until redemption. The tape that God is using is the promise of our inheritance in Heaven. The box is your body and God is the one that's putting the tape on the box. The dishes and glasses that are inside the box is the Holy Spirit inside your body!! Do you understand.

Ok so what scripture is saying is that when we believe and confess in Romans 10:9 that the Lord is our Savior, he comes to us! He will not leave us as orphans. You're still stuck on Jesus being alive, focus on his death and his resurrection. It's the only way you're going to understand what I'm saying and what his prophecy is telling you. You are free to allow God into your life now!! He's telling you the gift of salvation is available now!!!

 

[jasoncran]

According to your argument then the Pharisees, not Christians are in the kingdom of God. Jesus made that statement to the Pharisees. Please show me where Jesus said it to believers

luke 21. it was in the context of the temple. the Pharisees were and challenged him. he did warn of false christs. wasn't there false christs then and now? and say the same. I work with a man whom claims to be Christ himself.

 

[Guest]

luke 21. it was in the context of the temple. the Pharisees were and challenged him. he did warn of false christs. wasn't there false christs then and now? and say the same. I work with a man whom claims to be Christ himself.

The Pharisees never claimed that they knew what the kingdom of God was. They rejected his message and hated Jesus. Only those who repent of their sins and fully believe and confess know exactly what the kingdom is about. Nobody is claiming to be Christ here. Please get your facts straight in what we're talking about, if you decide to jump in to other peoples conversations. ty.

 

[Butch5]

luke 21. it was in the context of the temple. the Pharisees were and challenged him. he did warn of false christs. wasn't there false christs then and now? and say the same. I work with a man whom claims to be Christ himself.

I'm not sure how that's relevant.

 

[iLOVE]

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!†Matthew 27:51-54

19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.[a] 1 Peter 3:19 NLT

 

[iLOVE]

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!” Matthew 27:51-54

19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.[a] 1 Peter 3:19 NLT

Can you imagine when Jesus appeared in hell that every demon knee bowed and every demon tongue confess that He is Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

1. Are we resting in our graves waiting for judgement, or are we judged and sent to heaven/hell now.
2. Is Heaven/Hell filled up with the righteous and sinners right now or is it empty for the time being. 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 2 Kings 2:11.
3. Do only certain prophets go to heaven and the rest have to wait.
4. Why all the testimonies in the world about people seeing the white light or visiting heaven and hell now.

1. Absent from the body... Present with the Lord.. and there is a eschatological judgement that the judgement seat of Christ or also known as the Great White Throne Judgement.
2. See Hebrews 12:23, Heaven is currently populated with the righteous made perfect who dwell with God. Revelation 5 gives you a depiction of this. You also need to understand that "heaven" is not the final dwelling place of the righteous... New Heavens and New Earth is..
3. No.
4. With all the differing accounts and counter biblical accounts I personally don't put any stock in these tales.

 

[Guest]

are some of you telling me that every single heaven and hell testimony since the beginning of time is fake? i don't think so. did god give these people the gift of seeing into the future, or is there people in hell right now. you guys make it sound like it's an alien conspiracy.

 

[jasoncran]

urk, the more I read the bible. the more I found that it doesn't described heaven fully. I have also found that some stories contradict.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

are some of you telling me that every single heaven and hell testimony since the beginning of time is fake? i don't think so. did god give these people the gift of seeing into the future, or is there people in hell right now. you guys make it sound like it's an alien conspiracy.

Here's the deal urk... I'd like you to find at least 5 accounts of these so called testimonies of heaven and hell and then I'd like for you to demonstrate how none of these accounts contradict. Paul knew a man who went to heaven.. and he wasn't able to describe what happened there..

Also most of the stories about hell I have heard describe demons torturing people which is nothing short of a Roman Catholic Medieval representation of hell that has nothing to do with the Bible.

My skepticism is because almost every account I have heard is contradictory, and almost every account I have heard doesn't line up with what the Bible actually says.. rather it lines up quite well with how people imagine or want heaven to be like.

I take the testimony of GOD'S WORD over the clearly fallible word of man.

 

[gr8grace]

are some of you telling me that every single heaven and hell testimony since the beginning of time is fake? i don't think so. did god give these people the gift of seeing into the future, or is there people in hell right now. you guys make it sound like it's an alien conspiracy.

Every single heaven or hell experience that is in the bible is real. Anything outside of that is fake.

Paul is our prime example, If God did not let Paul tell of what he saw and experienced in his revelation of Heaven, why would He let Joe and Alice tell us about it?