"After the counsel of His own Will" !

[Eventide]

We have the example of Esau in the scriptures (and of course many others)..

Esau SOLD HIS BIRTHRIGHT.. to satisfy his flesh...

God didn't do it.. Esau did.. and I can understand why God could write that He hated Esau.. because he had a birthright and he sold it.

If that's not free will then what is..

 

[jasoncran]

i think who says is saying poorly that God will punish us for the actions we take that goes against His will. That fact as he does do that doesnt negate that we can reject him. if he denied the right to say no, why then did create us in the first place. we are now all robots if what who says is correct. he controls our thoughts and we arent able to freely think.

 

[Who Says]

We have the example of Esau in the scriptures (and of course many others)..

Esau SOLD HIS BIRTHRIGHT.. to satisfy his flesh...

God didn't do it.. Esau did.. and I can understand why God could write that He hated Esau.. because he had a birthright and he sold it.

If that's not free will then what is..

If they made themselves that way as Deuteronomy 32:5 says, .... then the answer to your question is as plain as the nose on your face.

It was an unlawful use (a use not given or approved of by God) of the ability to will and the power to make choices that they seized to themselves. They wrongly used their capability outside of God's given purpose. And that is why God is justified to punish their doing so.

You are not incapable of understanding that as it makes far more sense than what you are purporting.

If you would like input on why God hated Esau that I will be happy to discuss with you another time. But God was totally justified in doing so and it in no way violated love for him to do so.

 

[Eventide]

If they made themselves that way as Deuteronomy 32:5 says, .... then the answer to your question is as plain as the nose on your face.

It was an unlawful use (a use not given or approved of by God) of the ability to will and the power to make choices that they seized to themselves. They wrongly used their capability outside of God's given purpose. And that is why God is justified to punish their doing so.

You are not incapable of understanding that as it makes far more sense than what you are purporting.

I think what you're saying is that it wasn't God's will that Esau did what he did.. and yes, I agree that's plain as day.. but no matter how you slice it Esau was responsible for his actions and will bear the consequences right..

It's not that he did not have a birthright.. he did.. and he despised it according to scripture, and sold it to satisfy his own flesh.. it's a sad story in Christendom which we see often.

 

[Who Says]

I think what you're saying is that it wasn't God's will that Esau did what he did.. and yes, I agree that's plain as day.. but no matter how you slice it Esau was responsible for his actions and will bear the consequences right..

It's not that he did not have a birthright.. he did.. and he despised it according to scripture, and sold it to satisfy his own flesh.. it's a sad story in Christendom which we see often.

Exactly, because Esau had no right to disrespect his father and the orderly arangement established by his elders as he did. He abused his capicity to will and his power to make choices concerning it. And that was unlawful in God's eyes.

 

[Eventide]

Exactly, because Esau had no right to disrespect his father and the orderly arangement established by his elders as he did. He abused his capicity to will and his power to make choices concerning it. And that was unlawful in God's eyes.

To that I would say.. of course... in that respect the entire world is in the same boat.. every last person in Adam is under the same condemnation.. and that in no way violates free will to agree or to reject that truth.

 

[Who Says]

i think who says is saying poorly that God will punish us for the actions we take that goes against His will. That fact as he does do that doesnt negate that we can reject him. if he denied the right to say no, why then did create us in the first place. we are now all robots if what who says is correct. he controls our thoughts and we arent able to freely think.

If that be true, then do not ever tell your children NO or deny them something that you know they do not realize will hurt them.

You would not want your children to be robots, would ya?

I know you guys are more capable of sound reasoning than that.

 

[Who Says]

To that I would say.. of course... in that respect the entire world is in the same boat.. every last person in Adam is under the same condemnation.. and that in no way violates free will to agree or to reject that truth.

You are welcome to believe what you want.

I personally want to believe only what the Bible really teaches.

But what you do is up to you.

Have a good day and enjoy your stubborness.

 

[Eventide]

If the simple point you're making is that God is going to chastise his children for poor choices then again, of course He is.. same with those that are not His children.. they still reap the consequences of those choices and God is not mocked..

My question would be.. how does that relate to the creature NOT having a free will choice in the matter.. ?

 

[Eventide]

You are welcome to believe what you want.

I know..

I personally want to believe only what the Bible really teaches.

Mee too.. what's the cause of this statement ?

But what you do is up to you.

Have a good day and enjoy your stubborness.

You didn't even tell me what I said that isn't biblical.. would you do that please ? Or are you just going to make this statement and fail to support it ?

So typical

 

[Eventide]

I really don't get it.. what did I say that isn't biblical Who Says ?

Are you going to show me or just make blanket statements like this without any support ?

 

[Who Says]

If the simple point you're making is that God is going to chastise his children for poor choices then again, of course He is.. same with those that are not His children.. they still reap the consequences of those choices and God is not mocked..

My question would be.. how does that relate to the creature NOT having a free will choice in the matter.. ?

You keep ignoring that I never said we do not have that capacity to do so.

I have said it was not given us of God for that purpose to disobey him but to freely serve him in the exercise of love.

And the way you guys are teaching it is dishonoring God. And you know that and that is the real reason you are resisting hearing what I am saying.

Further, you have your feet into it so deep if you are a minister of a church that you probably either fear losing persons from the congregation or getting fired by them.

You want hard cold truth, there it is. You need to start putting God and what he says first.

God fogave Paul of participating in the murder of Christians because Paul was honestly blind.

Are you going to be able to claim you did not see the truth of this subject with which the world is being poisoned against God when you are called to answer?

That is extremely important for us to consider now. Later will be too late.

I am not excluding myself. I have been guilty of it in the past, also. So I repented it now while I can.

 

[Eventide]

You keep ignoring that I never said we do not have that capacity to do so.

IF you mean that you agree that men have free will and I didn't see that then I agree.. my apologies.

I have said it was not given us of God for that purpose to disobey him but to freely serve him in the exercise of love.

I agree, although isn't that more aligned with righteousness rather than having a choice in the matter..

And the way you guys are teaching it is dishonoring God. And you know that and that is the real reason you are resisting hearing what I am saying.

Wow Who Says.. I sincerely have absolutely NO IDEA where this is coming from.. how in the world am I dishonoring God..? Are you going to prove this or just bare false witness against another Christian..

I sincerely await your reply to this..

 

[Eventide]

And the way you guys are teaching it is dishonoring God. And you know that and that is the real reason you are resisting hearing what I am saying.

Further, you have your feet into it so deep if you are a minister of a church that you probably either fear losing persons from the congregation or getting fired by them.

You want hard cold truth, there it is. You need to start putting God and what he says first.

Anybody else know what this means ?

Who are the 'you guys' that Who Says says are dishonoring to God by what they're teaching ?

What are they teaching that is dishonoring to God ?

I'm serious.. what in the world is this all about ?

 

[Who Says]

IF you mean that you agree that men have free will and I didn't see that then I agree.. my apologies.

Men have what you improperly call free-will. Because if it were free (which means not judgable by anyone but yourself) then God could not judge it and punish its abuse.

It is the same mistake people make about driving a car. They claim it is their right of freedom to drive. But the point has long been established that driving is not a right of freedom but a privilege of conduct. A right cannot be taken away as in taking away a driver's license or a person's life for violations of use.

Society in general now understands that and so they see what you say about God being the giver of free-will as implicating God to be jointly guilty with those who sin and therefore a hypocrite to punish them or take it away. And conversely, from the other direction of view, cruel to subject us to it.

Your entire life is only a privilege. God can take it away from you. If it were a right of freedom in relation to him he could not.

If you do not like the expresions "God governed will" or God syncronized will" then call it "priviledge of will". Call it anything but free and a right because calling it those things sends the wrong message to a world that knows the difference between a right of freedom and a priviledge of conduct. And in convincing them that God gave us a free-will we therefore deface God in their eyes.

 

[Who Says]

Anybody else know what this means ?

Who are the 'you guys' that Who Says says are dishonoring to God by what they're teaching ?

What are they teaching that is dishonoring to God ?

I'm serious.. what in the world is this all about ?

I have plainly stated what it means. I have not spoke in secret.

 

[Eventide]

Men have what you improperly call free-will. Because if it were free (which means not judgable by anyone but yourself) then God could not judge it and punish its abuse.

No one has ever said that our choices do not have consequences..

It is the same mistake people make about driving a car. They claim it is their right of freedom to drive. But the point has long been established that driving is not a right of freedom but a privilege of conduct. A right cannot be taken away as in taking away a driver's license or a person's life for violations of use.

I disagree.. we have a right to drive a car and the governing authorities have a right to revoke it when it is not used in a lawful way... although this doesn't mean that people don't have a free will choice to 'speed' let's say.. it's still their own choice and they will bear the consequences of doing that unlawfully.

Society in general now understands that and so they see what you say about God being the giver of free-will as implicating God to be jointly guilty with those who sin and therefore a hypocrite to punish them or take it away.

I have no idea where you're coming up with this.. God isn't guilty in any way if a person freely chooses to go against what is right and wrong.

Your entire life is only a privilege. God can take it away from you. If it were a right of freedom in relation to him he could not.

So people can't loose their rights if they're unlawful ? Who Says..

If you do not like the expresions "God governed will" or God syncronized will" then call it "priviledge of will". Call it anything but free and a right because calling it those things sends the wrong message to a world that knows the difference between a right of freedom and a priviledge of conduct. And in convincing them that God gave us a free-will we therefore deface God in their eyes.

I think that your strict use of terms here is the problem.. I have a right to bear arms according to the governing authorities which are in place, and if I choose to disobey the laws governing that right then they can be revoked.

Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make although it seems to me that your own terms are the problem here..

 

[savedbygrace57]

childeye

My answer is no

Yes God did will sin, for He willed Christ death for sin before the world was created.

 

[Eventide]

I have plainly stated what it means. I have not spoke in secret.

I think that I understand what you're saying, although you said that 'you guys' are dishonoring God and that people are afraid to lose people in their congregation...and that this is the cold hard truth ? ? ?

How does that work..

Where have I dishonored God ?

Where have I stated that is not in accordance with biblical principles ?

 

[Elijah674]

IF you mean that you agree that men have free will and I didn't see that then I agree.. my apologies.


I agree, although isn't that more aligned with righteousness rather than having a choice in the matter..


Wow Who Says.. I sincerely have absolutely NO IDEA where this is coming from.. how in the world am I dishonoring God..? Are you going to prove this or just bare false witness against another Christian..

I sincerely await your reply to this..

Why do you couple posts on here not take a break & rest until some sense can at least be posted?? You go back & forth for days & nothing comes back CLEAR. Some come across (?) as if God does not know 'His own will' until you decide for Him! (Eze. 18:23 + 32 + Eze. 33:9 + verse 11 + verse 19)

And then canned robots are seen! ('brain 'DEAD, that are pre/programed?) Which 'some' do make it truely kind of hard to argue against that concept seeing that their 'posts' are wound up like a toy & then are seen unwinding as we go, except by ones understanding that this is as satans 'babbling' stuff by many posts??:robot

--Elijah