Bible Study Am I Really Saved?: The Witness of the Holy Spirit.

[donadams]

Eternal life don’t equal salvation
But grace in union with Christ
Thanks

How can you have eternal life and be fallen from grace?
Heb 12:15

How can you be saved and not dead yet?
Matt 24:13 Mk 13:13

 

[donadams]

Eternal life equals salvation.
You’re welcome.

How can you have eternal life and be fallen from grace?
Heb 12:15

How can you be saved and not dead yet?
Matt 24:13 Mk 13:13

I could give verse after verse saying “shall be saved” such as Mk 16:16

 

[Free]

How can you have eternal life and be fallen from grace?
Heb 12:15

How can you be saved and not dead yet?
Matt 24:13 Mk 13:13

I could give verse after verse saying “shall be saved” such as Mk 16:16

Of course you can, anyone can. Just as I, and anyone else, can give verses showing that we are saved.

 

[donadams]

Of course you can, anyone can. Just as I, and anyone else, can give verses showing that we are saved.

But that does not mean salvation
Like eph 2 refers to redemption not salvation
Thanks

 

[Maliah inked here]

The Spirit bears record:

Let's use Peter for an example. Peter went from denying the Lord to preaching to a multitude when the Spirit came and approximately three thousand were saved from his speaking. Acts 2 ..The spirit transforms and gives boldness to proclaim the word of God.

We know that we are saved and born again by the spirit that he has given us. “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16 ...He speaks guiding, and preparing our path.

The spirit given to us, is our teacher that we give ear to:
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." 1 Timothy 4 Paul states that the spirit clearly spoke. This was an example of "things to come"

We know that we are saved by the spirit he has given to us. Romans 8:

But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
...He indwells the believer.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
...He testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

But:

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. ...We have to live in accordance with the Spirit.

Ephesians 4
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
... He's not to be grieved.

The Spirit will bear record with our spirit that we are born again. Rom 8:16

 

[donadams]

Jn 16:13 applies to the apostles the leaders of the church founded by Christ

how many times did Peter receive the spirit?
Thanks

 

[Free]

But that does not mean salvation
Like eph 2 refers to redemption not salvation
Thanks

Sure it does.
You're welcome.

 

[donadams]

The Spirit bears record:

Let's use Peter for an example. Peter went from denying the Lord to preaching to a multitude when the Spirit came and approximately three thousand were saved from his speaking. Acts 2 ..The spirit transforms and gives boldness to proclaim the word of God.

We know that we are saved and born again by the spirit that he has given us. “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16 ...He speaks guiding, and preparing our path.

The spirit given to us, is our teacher that we give ear to:
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." 1 Timothy 4 Paul states that the spirit clearly spoke. This was an example of "things to come"

We know that we are saved by the spirit he has given to us. Romans 8:

But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
...He indwells the believer.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
...He testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

But:

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. ...We have to live in accordance with the Spirit.

Ephesians 4
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
... He's not to be grieved.

The Spirit will bear record with our spirit that we are born again. Rom 8:16

Not saved
Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 Mk 16:16 many more

 

[Maliah inked here]

Jn 16:13 applies to the apostles the leaders of the church founded by Christ

how many times did Peter receive the spirit?
Thanks

 

[Maliah inked here]

No, it is for all.
Acts 2:38-39
The promise is to you, your children...and to ALL that are called.

 

[Tenchi]

How can you have eternal life and be fallen from grace?
Heb 12:15

Why does "fallen from grace" have to mean "lost your salvation"?

Why can't a believer who has "fallen from grace" simply be a saved person who was once enjoying the full benefits of salvation in fellowship with God but who no longer is? Why can't they just be missing out on joyful communion with their heavenly Father, like the Prodigal son did with his earthly father? As far as the Prodigal went from his father, and no matter how ugly the Prodigal's living became, he was always his father's son. Neither distance, nor conduct, could erase the father-son relationship the Prodigal had with his Dad. His fellowship with his father was "dead," yes, but his relationship to his father remained, irreversible.

I may own a lawnmower and can enjoy the benefits of its grass-cutting power any time I like, but if I choose to use a pair of scissors to trim my lawn instead, I'm still in possession of my lawnmower, though I'm not enjoying its grass-cutting benefits. Likewise, the believer who has come into possession of salvation and all of its benefits doesn't lose it when they seek to be saved by law-keeping, or allow sin to creep into their living, or begin to doubt their faith. They may work vainly at "cutting the grass" of Christian living by keeping rules; they may allow "weeds" of doubt to sully the "lawn" of their faith; they may let the "dog" of sin to dig holes in the "yard" of their walk with God, but none of these things mean they've lost possession of the "lawnmower" of their salvation.

Anyway, in context, Hebrews 12:15 is referring to the "grace of God" exhibited in divine discipline, that can yield the "peaceful fruit of righteousness." The writer of Hebrews is warning the divinely-disciplined believer against becoming bitter toward God because of His discipline of them. They could "come short of the grace of God" extended to all of His children in His discipline of them, by resenting and resisting that discipline. The idea that the believer's salvation is in jeopardy, though, is nowhere indicated in the chapter.

How can you be saved and not dead yet?
Matt 24:13 Mk 13:13

I could give verse after verse saying “shall be saved” such as Mk 16:16

For every verse you could give, I could give another that says, "have been," or "are," saved. I'm betting, though, that many of the verses you'd cite would be referring, not to salvation from the penalty and power of sin, which is already enjoyed by every born-again person, but salvation from the presence of sin in eternal glory with God. Also, I suspect some of the verse you might throw out don't take into account when they were issued - before or after the cross. In the Four Synoptic Gospels, Jesus was usually speaking in an OT context to OT Jews, apart from, and before, the post-Calvary truths of the Gospel.

 

[Maliah inked here]

Why does "fallen from grace" have to mean "lost your salvation"?

Why can't a believer who has "fallen from grace" simply be a saved person who was once enjoying the full benefits of salvation in fellowship with God but who no longer is? Why can't they just be missing out on joyful communion with their heavenly Father, like the Prodigal son did with his earthly father? As far as the Prodigal went from his father, and no matter how ugly the Prodigal's living became, he was always his father's son. Neither distance, nor conduct, could erase the father-son relationship the Prodigal had with his Dad. His fellowship with his father was "dead," yes, but his relationship to his father remained, irreversible.

I may own a lawnmower and can enjoy the benefits of its grass-cutting power any time I like, but if I choose to use a pair of scissors to trim my lawn instead, I'm still in possession of my lawnmower, though I'm not enjoying its grass-cutting benefits. Likewise, the believer who has come into possession of salvation and all of its benefits doesn't lose it when they seek to be saved by law-keeping, or allow sin to creep into their living, or begin to doubt their faith. They may work vainly at "cutting the grass" of Christian living by keeping rules; they may allow "weeds" of doubt to sully the "lawn" of their faith; they may let the "dog" of sin to dig holes in the "yard" of their walk with God, but none of these things mean they've lost possession of the "lawnmower" of their salvation.

Anyway, in context, Hebrews 12:15 is referring to the "grace of God" exhibited in divine discipline, that can yield the "peaceful fruit of righteousness." The writer of Hebrews is warning the divinely-disciplined believer against becoming bitter toward God because of His discipline of them. They could "come short of the grace of God" extended to all of His children in His discipline of them, by resenting and resisting that discipline. The idea that the believer's salvation is in jeopardy, though, is nowhere indicated in the chapter.



For every verse you could give, I could give another that says, "have been," or "are," saved. I'm betting, though, that many of the verses you'd cite would be referring, not to salvation from the penalty and power of sin, which is already enjoyed by every born-again person, but salvation from the presence of sin in eternal glory with God. Also, I suspect some of the verse you might throw out don't take into account when they were issued - before or after the cross. In the Four Synoptic Gospels, Jesus was usually speaking in an OT context to OT Jews, apart from, and before, the post-Calvary truths of the Gospel.

 

[Maliah inked here]

Sin is the answer. The Holy Spirit does not and will not indwell the sinful or those who depart from the faith.

Ezekiel 18:24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die"

The same principle holds true under the new covenant:

2 Peter 2 amplifies this ..vs 20 for if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled and overcome the latter end is worse for them than the beginning for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness then after they had known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them but this is happened unto them according to the true proverb the dog is turned again to his own vomit and the sow has returned to her wallowing in the mud.

We must overcome this world, the flesh and the devil, remain in the vine and be faithful are Jesus' righteous requirements for the church Revelation 2&3
He that puts his hand to the plow, turning back is not fit for the kingdom of God.
God will not be mocked.

Let's overcome and be faithful!

 

[Tenchi]

Sin is the answer. The Holy Spirit does not and will not indwell the sinful or those who depart from the faith.

Well, this just isn't what the Bible indicates. It's only in sinners, enemies of God, in fact, that the Holy Spirit comes to dwell. Until the Spirit applies the cleansing power of Christ's shed blood to us, in himself imparting to us the life of Christ - his righteousness, his love, his peace, and so on - we are as Scripture describes:

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It's in a state of moral collapse, when we were "foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passion and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another," that the Holy Spirit came to each born-again person and made them new in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). This is the story of Ephesians 2:1-6 and Colossians 1:21-22, as well. How, then, can you declare that "the Holy Spirit does not and will not indwell the sinful"? There is no other sort of person in whom he can take up residence!

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ezekiel 18:24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die"

So, in what sense will the righteous person turned to wickedness "die"? They will die physically regardless of their moral condition; evil or righteous, both sorts of people end up dead. Evil people live long lives, too - as long, or longer, sometimes, than the righteous. My own grandmother was a semi-sociopath but she lived to 96! So, what is all this about "the righteous person doing evil will die"? Have you thought this passage through? Does it really apply at all to the New Covenant believer whose relationship to God is established and maintained in the perfection of Christ, not themselves (Ephesians 1:1-13)? I don't think it does apply.

2 Peter 2 amplifies this ..vs 20 for if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled and overcome the latter end is worse for them than the beginning for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness then after they had known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them but this is happened unto them according to the true proverb the dog is turned again to his own vomit and the sow has returned to her wallowing in the mud.

This entire chapter is about false teachers, who, as such, living in the wicked manner Peter described, clearly demonstrated that they had never been born-again. Is a mere knowledge of Jesus Christ and his salvific work at Calvary sufficient to deliver a person from the "pollutions of the world"? Over the years, I have encountered Muslims, and atheists, and countless nominal "Christians" who possessed this knowledge, who knew Jesus was the Savior of the World. But none of them were saved.

Peter wrote in the above passage that the false teachers he had described had only "known the way of righteousness," not that they were born-again, or saved, or spiritually made new, or possessed new life in Christ; they had gained just "a knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ," nothing more. Knowledge is only the first step toward spiritual regeneration by the indwelling Holy Spirit. To this knowledge, saving faith must be added, a faith that anticipates a changed life, a life that conforms to, and manifests, what is believed (2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 4:2; James 2:14-26). Such a life was not what Peter described of the false teachers in 2 Peter 2.

In what way, then, had the false teachers "escaped the pollutions of the world"? Does Peter describe this escape in 2 Peter 2? No. From beginning to end, the chapter describes people in unrelieved wickedness. How, then, did such people "escape the pollutions of the world"? Well, I'm not sure that Peter intended to say that they actually had "escaped." The word "if" stands at the beginning of verse 20, suggesting to me that Peter was making a theoretical statement, not describing an actual state-of-affairs: If it were possible (but, of course, it's not) that the false teachers could escape from the pollutions of the world, and then return to those pollutions, their end would be far, far worse than if they'd never escaped at all. Peter is not describing a real circumstance, but is theorizing about, or imagining, how awful it would be if it were possible for such wicked people to have escaped "the pollutions of the world" and then go back to them. Such a situation would be like a dog returning to its vomit, or a washed pig going back into the mud and crap of the pigpen. Yikes.

Anyway, again, it is only into the lives of sinners that the Holy Spirit comes; the Holy Spirit can only make a "temple" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) of sinners. But once he has, once he's within the repentant sinner, he makes the sinner a "new creature in Christ" and begins a life-long process of transformation of them, never leaving nor forsaking them (Hebrews 13:5), bringing to completion the work he has begun in them (Philippians 1:6). He is not flaky, as human beings so commonly are, making his love and faithfulness to us contingent upon our success in living righteously. No, just as God persisted with the unbelieving Israelites who had retreated in fear from the Promised Land He had given to them, God the Holy Spirit persists with those in Christ even when they, too, are faithless, stumbling into sin.

Romans 8:31-39
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

[donadams]

No, it is for all.
Acts 2:38-39
The promise is to you, your children...and to ALL that are called.

That is the promise of baptism not being an apostle and governing the church or teaching and sanctifying all men unto salvation Matt 28:19 eph 2:20
Thanks

 

[Maliah inked here]

That is the promise of baptism not being an apostle and governing the church or teaching and sanctifying all men unto salvation Matt 28:19 eph 2:20
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Why does "fallen from grace" have to mean "lost your salvation"?

Why can't a believer who has "fallen from grace" simply be a saved person who was once enjoying the full benefits of salvation in fellowship with God but who no longer is? Why can't they just be missing out on joyful communion with their heavenly Father, like the Prodigal son did with his earthly father? As far as the Prodigal went from his father, and no matter how ugly the Prodigal's living became, he was always his father's son. Neither distance, nor conduct, could erase the father-son relationship the Prodigal had with his Dad. His fellowship with his father was "dead," yes, but his relationship to his father remained, irreversible.

I may own a lawnmower and can enjoy the benefits of its grass-cutting power any time I like, but if I choose to use a pair of scissors to trim my lawn instead, I'm still in possession of my lawnmower, though I'm not enjoying its grass-cutting benefits. Likewise, the believer who has come into possession of salvation and all of its benefits doesn't lose it when they seek to be saved by law-keeping, or allow sin to creep into their living, or begin to doubt their faith. They may work vainly at "cutting the grass" of Christian living by keeping rules; they may allow "weeds" of doubt to sully the "lawn" of their faith; they may let the "dog" of sin to dig holes in the "yard" of their walk with God, but none of these things mean they've lost possession of the "lawnmower" of their salvation.

Anyway, in context, Hebrews 12:15 is referring to the "grace of God" exhibited in divine discipline, that can yield the "peaceful fruit of righteousness." The writer of Hebrews is warning the divinely-disciplined believer against becoming bitter toward God because of His discipline of them. They could "come short of the grace of God" extended to all of His children in His discipline of them, by resenting and resisting that discipline. The idea that the believer's salvation is in jeopardy, though, is nowhere indicated in the chapter.



For every verse you could give, I could give another that says, "have been," or "are," saved. I'm betting, though, that many of the verses you'd cite would be referring, not to salvation from the penalty and power of sin, which is already enjoyed by every born-again person, but salvation from the presence of sin in eternal glory with God. Also, I suspect some of the verse you might throw out don't take into account when they were issued - before or after the cross. In the Four Synoptic Gospels, Jesus was usually speaking in an OT context to OT Jews, apart from, and before, the post-Calvary truths of the Gospel.

Saved don’t mean salvation but redemption eph 2:8

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23


Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Thanks

 

[Maliah inked here]

Peter is quoting from Joel 2:28-32
The promise of The Holy Spirit.

 

[Maliah inked here]

Saved don’t mean salvation but redemption eph 2:8

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23


Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Thanks

 

[Maliah inked here]

After reading this post it is clear we will agree to disagree.