An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[brightfame52]

All you have done in the last 5 posts is deny the truth with no scripture.


Thanks for proving my point.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Those who follow Christ and His message of salvation can plainly and honestly say with the scriptures, that eternal salvation is for all who obey Him.




JLB

Tulip is the Gospel and you reject it, not good

 

[Whatever]

I tend to believe that when God speaks to someone, He also enables him to freely to choose to accept God's Word or to harden his heart against God's Word: Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion (Heb 3:15b).

Do you have Scripture in mind that could correct my view?

I have scripture but you won't accept them.
John_10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Joh_10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Jesus is giving a cause and effect here that you must accept.
My sheep - Those given to Him by the Father before time began - hear my voice
You are not of my sheep
Therefore, you do not believe you do not hear my voice
Joh_6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, . . .
The guys above (10:26) were not given to Jesus by the Father
Therefore they were not sheep.

Seems to me that Jesus is saying that goats or tares will not and cannot hear, believe or come to Jesus.

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil,

People are born sheep or goats. Goats do not turn into sheep.

 

[JJonas]

I have scripture but you won't accept them.

On the contrary, I want to take seriously such scriptures, so thank you very much for providing them! OTOH I may not agree with your interpretation ;-). I however agree with it to some extent.

I checked the greek word for “to hear”, and it's the same in Heb 3:15 that I cited and in John 8:43 and 10:27 that you cited. It can also mean “to understand” (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g191/kjv/tr/0-1/). I think it could be a valid meaning in all 3 verses.

Heb 3:15 implies that someone could hear the Word of God but could harden his heart against it, in which case, he would be a goat. John 8:43 and 10:27 implies that goats couldn't hear the Word of God. It is then an open question for me: how can we reconcile Heb 3:15 with John 8:43 and 10:27?

I searched other verses:

Dt 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

OK, it is a gift of God to have hearts, eyes and ears that can perceive, see and hear the things of God. To hear can also mean to listen, to obey or to understand (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h8085/kjv/wlc/0-1/)

Searching further, I found an interesting paradox:

John 12:
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Here it is said that it was an act of God to put them in such a state. This we can easily reconcile with Dt 29:4.

Mt 13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Comp. Acts 28:27)

Here on the contrary, it is said that it was an act of the people to put themselves in such a state (their eyes they have closed; some bibles also render: they have hardened their ears)

See also Zach 7:
11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

So I see 2 paradoxal truths where both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man are affirmed. The paradox is hard to understand, but we will do good to take both truths seriously and resist the temptation to downplay any of these truths!

 

[Whatever]

So I see 2 paradoxal truths where both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man are affirmed.

People like to site the "paradox" about God hardening Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh hardening his heart.
But before Moses ever went to Egypt, God had already told him:

Exodus 4:21 The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
So, before anything happened God already declared that He would harden Pharaoh's heart "so that he will not let the people go." Why would God do that?
Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 7:4 But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

It seems that God didn't simply want to get the people out of Egypt, but he wanted to kick the Egyptians butts and declare His power. Kind of like what Paul says:
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

And as in the book of Job, you know God can use Satan to do things. I believe when Pharaoh hardened his own heart, God was letting Satan do his thing.

So, with this I do not see a paradox. God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart before Moses ever left for Egypt. Pharaoh hardened his own heart because of the invisible work of Satan.

God's ultimate purpose was to show His power and make His wrath known.

 

[Whatever]

I'd like to add another thing where I see God working and Satan working.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

1Ch 21:1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

I don't think these are 2 different events and I don't see a contradiction. 2nd Samuel is simply crediting God as the ultimate cause of David doing what he did, and the Chronicle passage is showing that God uses Satan to do it.

But to be honest, the consequences the Lord offers David is slightly different in each passage:
2Sa 24:13 So Gad came to David and told him; and he said to him, "Shall seven years of famine come to you in your land? Or shall you flee three months before your enemies, while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' plague in your land? Now consider and see what answer I should take back to Him who sent me."

1Ch 21:12 either three years of famine, or three months to be defeated by your foes with the sword of your enemies overtaking you, or else for three days the sword of the LORD—the plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.' Now consider what answer I should take back to Him who sent me."
The only difference it 7 years of famine vs 3 years in the other.
I found this:
In the case of 1 Chronicles 21:12 the manuscripts are unanimous that the proposed time of discipline was three years. In the case of 2 Samuel 24:13, the Septuagint has three years, but the majority of Hebrew texts have seven years. It is hard to be sure what the original of 2 Samuel 24:13 was.

You can search google or whatever you use for:
contradiction between 2Sa 24:13 and 1Ch 21:12
and see what you find.

 

[JJonas]

People like to site the "paradox" about God hardening Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh hardening his heart.
But before Moses ever went to Egypt, God had already told him:

Exodus 4:21 The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
So, before anything happened God already declared that He would harden Pharaoh's heart "so that he will not let the people go." Why would God do that?
Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 7:4 But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

It seems that God didn't simply want to get the people out of Egypt, but he wanted to kick the Egyptians butts and declare His power. Kind of like what Paul says:
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

And as in the book of Job, you know God can use Satan to do things. I believe when Pharaoh hardened his own heart, God was letting Satan do his thing.

So, with this I do not see a paradox. God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart before Moses ever left for Egypt. Pharaoh hardened his own heart because of the invisible work of Satan.

God's ultimate purpose was to show His power and make His wrath known.

I Agree: God created Pharaoh to be a vessel of wrath, so that God could show His wrath and to make His power known. This is essentially what God told Moses in the verses you quoted in Exodus.

However, was it in vain that the Scripture also said that Pharaoh hardened his heart? Isn't there any helpful truth that we could learn with that?

 

[brightfame52]

JJonas

However, was it in vain that the Scripture also said that Pharaoh hardened his heart? Isn't there any helpful truth that we could learn with that?

Pharoah had no choice but to follow suit on what God first determined, its the residual effect of God hardening his heart,

Ex 8:15

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

 

[JLB]

Tulip is the Gospel and you reject it, not good

I wholeheartedly reject TULIP as being a doctrine from man.


You reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and claim that people are saved before they ever hear the Gospel.


Now you claim that TULIP is The Gospel.


How is a person saved before they hear TULIP?



Please explain.



JLB

 

[electedbyHim]

I wholeheartedly reject TULIP as being a doctrine from man.


You reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and claim that people are saved before they ever hear the Gospel.


Now you claim that TULIP is The Gospel.


How is a person saved before they hear TULIP?



Please explain.



JLB

Again.

People are dead in their sin and cannot come to God. They are at enmity with God and want nothing to do with Him.

They love darkness and hate the light because it exposes their evileness.

If they are spiritually dead they reject anything to do with the Lord.

God has to regenerate them to open their spiritual eyes and ears to accept and act in obedience to the faith the Lord gives them.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

I wholeheartedly reject TULIP as being a doctrine from man.

And Yet is Gods Gospel of Grace !

 

[Iconoclast]

Again.

Yes, people who enjoy bible study wind up being reformed types

People are dead in their sin and cannot come to God

The word used in Eph2...is the word for corpse...nekros

They are at enmity with God and want nothing to do with Him.

Yes, they hate the biblical God.

They love darkness and hate the light because it exposes their evileness.

If they are spiritually dead they reject anything to do with the Lord.

It is almost like they are totally depraved???

God has to regenerate them to open their spiritual eyes and ears to accept and act in obedience to the faith the Lord gives them

So salvation is of the Lord

.

 

[JLB]

Again.

People are dead in their sin and cannot come to God.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


The way any person who is dead in trespasses and sin is to believe in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross: His death burial and resurrection.

Do you believe a person is saved without ever hearing and believing this?


6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:6-10



brightfame52 denies this and says people are saved first without the Gospel, without ever hearing of Jesus Christ.


To that I ask, please show us where the scriptures say that people are saved without ever hearing about Jesus and what He did on the cross.


That my friend is "another" Gospel: a Christ-less Gospel.


Why would anyone defend and promote a Christ-less Gospel?



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB



And Yet is Gods Gospel of Grace !

Please show us in the scripture where a person is saved without ever hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

 

[electedbyHim]

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


The way any person who is dead in trespasses and sin is to believe in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross: His death burial and resurrection.

Do you believe a person is saved without ever hearing and believing this?


6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:6-10



brightfame52 denies this and says people are saved first without the Gospel, without ever hearing of Jesus Christ.


To that I ask, please show us where the scriptures say that people are saved without ever hearing about Jesus and what He did on the cross.


That my friend is "another" Gospel: a Christ-less Gospel.


Why would anyone defend and promote a Christ-less Gospel?



JLB

There is definite communication breakdown.

You are not understanding what we are sayingl.

Read my post again.

People are dead in their sin and cannot come to God. They are at enmity with God and want nothing to do with Him.

They love darkness and hate the light because it exposes their evileness.

If they are spiritually dead they reject anything to do with the Lord.

God has to regenerate them to open their spiritual eyes and ears to accept and act in obedience to the faith the Lord gives them.

 

[brightfame52]

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


The way any person who is dead in trespasses and sin is to believe in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross: His death burial and resurrection.

Do you believe a person is saved without ever hearing and believing this?


6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:6-10



brightfame52 denies this and says people are saved first without the Gospel, without ever hearing of Jesus Christ.


To that I ask, please show us where the scriptures say that people are saved without ever hearing about Jesus and what He did on the cross.


That my friend is "another" Gospel: a Christ-less Gospel.


Why would anyone defend and promote a Christ-less Gospel?



JLB

The Gospel of Christ in Rom 1:16 is the Truths of TULIP so do you believe that Gospel of Christ ?

 

[brightfame52]

Please show us in the scripture where a person is saved without ever hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

I have shown you, you dont believe it, and the Gospel of Christ in Rom 1:16 is grounded in the Truths of Tulip:

Total depravity of man Rom 3; Unconditional Election of Grace Rom 9,11 ; Limited or particular and effectual atonement Rom 5 the Irresistible effectual call Rom 8, preservation of the elect unto final glory Rom 8

 

[Whatever]

You reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and claim that people are saved before they ever hear the Gospel.

I know you were talking to somebody else, but this is a fallacy. We believe and the Bible seems to teach that people are elect before they are even born. But the elect person is not saved the minute he comes into existence. The elect person is born a child of wrath just as the rest (Eph 2:3) and only becomes saved at the time and place God chooses to regenerate him. Kind of like Saul of Tarsus.

Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

We are predestined to something that will take place at God timing.

 

[Whatever]

However, was it in vain that the Scripture also said that Pharaoh hardened his heart? Isn't there any helpful truth that we could learn with that?

Of course. A sinner doesn't need God to harden their heart for the person to harden their hearts themselves.

Even born again Christians can harden their hearts at times - not necessarily against God, but in everyday things. Especially harden their hearts against their spouse. That's why there is so much divorce.

And when God says "I will harden Pharaoh's heart" I don't think God actually did something to Pharaoh. All God has to do is loosen His restrain on the "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Eph 6:12) and they will gladly do the job.

This is interesting to me, I know it is only a movie, but in the original Ten Commandments movie with Charlton Heston, after the killing of all the first born in Egypt, it shows Pharaoh all depressed and defeated and such, and he was letting the people go. Then his wife comes in and nags and criticizes him to the point that he flies into a rage and tells him army to get together cause we are going to bring those people back. I though "wow" that could be a real possibility of what caused Pharaoh to harden his heart. A nagging and criticizing will do it.

 

[Iconoclast]

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

Yes...just like Jn 3:16....EVERY BELIEVING ONE......Not those in unbelief.

The way any person who is dead in trespasses and sin is to believe in Jesus Christ

Dead corpses cannot do anything spiritually until life is given to them.

and what He did on the cross: His death burial and resurrection.

Do you believe a person is saved without ever hearing and believing this?

If God in mercy elects a person who dies in the womb, or a mentally handicapped person and grants them saving grace they will be saved.1689 conf.
3 Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. (kJoh 3:3,5-6; lJoh 3:8)

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:6-10

This passage is speaking of the justified elect who have peace with God, as in 5:1

brightfame52 denies this and says people are saved first without the Gospel, without ever hearing of Jesus Christ.

Brightflame has answered you several times and yet you attempt to slander him and what he did post. That is a 9th commandment violation

To that I ask, please show us where the scriptures say that people are saved without ever hearing about Jesus and what He did on the cross.

That my friend is "another" Gospel: a Christ-less Gospel.

You foolishly post this because you really do not comprehend the biblical Godpel, instead you construct your own version of it, which is very defective.

Why would anyone defend and promote a Christ-less Gospel?

He has not done that. You repeat your 9th commandment violation as if it is okay for you to lie.There are a few non cals on here who think that is okay to do, but they are wrong.
Thankfully there are some non cals who even though they differ , have enough integrity to be honest while they disagree.

JLB

 

[brightfame52]

I know you were talking to somebody else, but this is a fallacy. We believe and the Bible seems to teach that people are elect before they are even born. But the elect person is not saved the minute he comes into existence. The elect person is born a child of wrath just as the rest (Eph 2:3) and only becomes saved at the time and place God chooses to regenerate him. Kind of like Saul of Tarsus.

Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

We are predestined to something that will take place at God timing.

Do you believe one is saved as in regeneration, before they hear and believe the Gospel ?