An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace



Its a Judgment for sin, its sinful to be depraved and dead to God

Well isn't it God that decreed that persons should be born totally depraved and dead?

So why is it a sin to be depraved and dead to God?

Does this mean that God decreed sin?

 

[brightfame52]

Well isn't it God that decreed that persons should be born totally depraved and dead?

So why is it a sin to be depraved and dead to God?

Does this mean that God decreed sin?

Yes, He God was pleased to create some of mankind as vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction for their sins. God decreed everything, including sin

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, He God was pleased to create some of mankind as vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction for their sins. God decreed everything, including sin

Thank you.
An honest calvinist !

Are you aware how many times I've been told by the reformed that God does not decree sin?
Many, and almost by all that post on here.

You, of course, are correct.
Even John MacArthur and JC Sproul stated as such.

I appreciate your honest answer.
Nothing wrong with it.
John Calvin also stated this.

 

[brightfame52]

Thank you.
An honest calvinist !

Are you aware how many times I've been told by the reformed that God does not decree sin?
Many, and almost by all that post on here.

You, of course, are correct.
Even John MacArthur and JC Sproul stated as such.

I appreciate your honest answer.
Nothing wrong with it.
John Calvin also stated this.

The scripture teaches it

 

[GodsGrace]

The scripture teaches it

I gave you a like because you're honest.
I don't believe that scripture teaches that God creates sin.
How could He hate what He creates?

 

[JJonas]

Me either. I just read your "Greetings from Switzerland" I'm tired. I better log off and do something else for awhile.

No problem . Sorry, that my post led to misinterpretations!

 

[brightfame52]

I gave you a like because you're honest.
I don't believe that scripture teaches that God creates sin.
How could He hate what He creates?

God can do what He wants, Love who He will and hate whom He will. Why are you always questioning what God can do ?

 

[GodsGrace]

God can do what He wants, Love who He will and hate whom He will. Why are you always questioning what God can do ?

God can do what He wants to do.
Even give us free will and the ability to seek Him.

If God hates sin....
why would He create sin?
Why would he create something he hates?

Do you have access to Talk With Staff?

 

[JJonas]

Your statements could be perceived as discriminatory because they appear to diminish the personhood of the disabled individual using AI to communicate. By referring to the individual as a "program" and expressing a preference for the individual to "stay" as if they are different from others, GodsGrace is effectively invalidating the humanity and dignity of the disabled person.

Here's why these statements could be considered discriminatory:

Dehumanization: Referring to the disabled person as a "program" rather than acknowledging them as a person suggests a dehumanizing attitude. It reduces the individual to a mere tool or technology, ignoring their inherent worth and identity.

Exclusionary Language: The use of "YOU" in capitals, while seemingly emphasizing the person, could also be interpreted as emphasizing a distinction or separation between the disabled individual and others. It implies a sense of otherness, potentially isolating the individual from the conversation or social interaction.

Lack of Respect: The tone of the statements could be interpreted as dismissive or disrespectful. Instead of engaging with the disabled person as an equal participant in the conversation, GodsGrace appears to treat them as an object or an inconvenience.

Inclusive and respectful language is essential when interacting with individuals with disabilities, including those who use AI assistive technology to communicate. Using person-first language and acknowledging the agency and personhood of individuals with disabilities helps promote dignity, equality, and inclusion. Therefore, it's important to avoid language or behavior that may perpetuate stereotypes, marginalize, or discriminate against individuals with disabilities.

Do you mean that because of a disability, you need to use AI to help you to communicate? It that correct?

By the way, your post is hard to beat in regards to how many ideological tainted words it has ;-). Can you tune the AI to be less ideological? ;-)

 

[Whatever]

Do you have access to Talk With Staff?

This is what I was getting at earlier. It is wrong for us to comment on things those on the staff post?

 

[JJonas]

The emphasis on God's sovereignty in Calvinism doesn't negate the existence of human free will

That's the first time I heard a Calvinist stating that we have a free will!

It's beyond my control that individuals began labeling the Gospel as "TULIP" and associating it with Calvinism. Spurgeon probably started that.

Maybe Spurgeon started that. However I read a few books from him and I often saw the Gospel in them, Calvinism, however, not so much. All who were saved by believing the Gospel aren't necessarily Calvinists. Then calling the Gospel Calvinism means also calling all saved people Calvinists! Who can agree on that?!?

The person throwing around the "heresy" label means that Calvinist teaching makes God out to be a moral monster.

It's on the same level that calling God to be a moral monster because He ordered Israel to exterminate the Canaanites! It's man believing he is the measure of all things, including God! If Calvinist teaching would make God a moral monster, then this has to be proven by the Scriptures, yes by God's own revealed standards instead by the subjective standards of man!

The term is in the same place as the word trinity.It is right next to it.On the other side of it is the term rapture

I just learnt something: the word rapture is not in the Bible. There are however related terms: Gather the elects (Matt 24:31), take people away (Matt 24:40-41), change / put on immortality (1 Cor 15:52-53)

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what I was getting at earlier. It is wrong for us to comment on things those on the staff post?

No Whatever.
You can post whatever you believe to be true to anyone,,,,even the Admin.

My question was a staff question.
I'm sorry I posted it here and that it might have caused some confusion.

 

[electedbyHim]

The doctrine that a person is born again, regenerated, saved before they ever hear and believe the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.

Believing [obeying] the Gospel is how we are saved, born again, regenerated.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Paul says it this way -

• how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:13-14


Please explain to us how a person is born again without ever hearing of Jesus Christ?


Salvation without hearing and believing in Christ Jesus and His work on the cross is a "Christ-less" salvation.


It's another gospel.

It's Heresy.


Those who promote heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

Please explain to us how a person is born again without ever hearing of Jesus Christ?

I never said that.

 

[Whatever]

That's the first time I heard a Calvinist stating that we have a free will!

That depends upon how you define free will.
From the Westminster Confession of faith:
CHAPTER 3
Of God’s Eternal Decree
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

It also has a whole chapter on Free Will
CHAPTER 9
Of Free Will
1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

Notice number talks about free will in the state of innocency. That is talking about Adam as created. But after the fall and the curse, well, the other points get to that.

I just found the following written by St. Augustine around 1,000 years before Calvin.
How is it then that miserable human beings dare to be proud, either of their free will, before they are set free, or of their own strength, if they have been set free? They do not observe that in the very mention of free will they pronounce the name of liberty. But ‘where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty’ (2 Cor.3:17). If, therefore, they are the slaves of sin, why do they boast of free will? For ‘by whatever a person is overcome, to that he is delivered as a slave’ (2 Pet.2:19). But if they have been set free, why do they puff themselves up as if it were by their own doing? Why do they boast, as if their freedom were not a gift? Or are they so free that they will not have Him for their Lord Who says to them, ‘Without Me, you can do nothing’ (Jn.15:5), and, ‘If the Son sets you free, you shall be truly free?’ (Jn.8:36).

 

[Whatever]

You can post whatever you believe to be true to anyone,,,,even the Admin.

That's good because I usually don't even notice who the person is I am posting to. I just reply to what's posted.

 

[electedbyHim]

That's a very weak and helpless God you believe in.

The way I understand God to be....

NOTHING can diminish Him.

Apparently you think God can be diminished.

Could you show verses that claim man has no free will?
Shouldn't scripture clearly state that it is God that chooses WHO will be saved?

Are you aware how many times I've been told by the reformed that God does not decree sin?
Many, and almost by all that post on here.

I am not certain why you would say that when I have read multiple members say this.

I myself have posted Romans 9:21-22 multiple times.

Romans 9:21-22 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,

 

[JJonas]

That depends upon how you define free will.
From the Westminster Confession of faith:
CHAPTER 3
Of God’s Eternal Decree
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

It also has a whole chapter on Free Will
CHAPTER 9
Of Free Will
1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

Notice number talks about free will in the state of innocency. That is talking about Adam as created. But after the fall and the curse, well, the other points get to that.

I just found the following written by St. Augustine around 1,000 years before Calvin.
How is it then that miserable human beings dare to be proud, either of their free will, before they are set free, or of their own strength, if they have been set free? They do not observe that in the very mention of free will they pronounce the name of liberty. But ‘where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty’ (2 Cor.3:17). If, therefore, they are the slaves of sin, why do they boast of free will? For ‘by whatever a person is overcome, to that he is delivered as a slave’ (2 Pet.2:19). But if they have been set free, why do they puff themselves up as if it were by their own doing? Why do they boast, as if their freedom were not a gift? Or are they so free that they will not have Him for their Lord Who says to them, ‘Without Me, you can do nothing’ (Jn.15:5), and, ‘If the Son sets you free, you shall be truly free?’ (Jn.8:36).

According to the Westminster Confession God is not the author of sin. Does God still decree sin according to Calvinism, as some people here say? That's a bit confusing...

Otherwise, I agree with what you posted from the Westminster Confession and with your quote from Augustinus, except with some of the point 4. Indeed, according to my understanding of Scripture, I tend to believe that when God speaks to someone, He also enables him to freely to choose to accept God's Word or to harden his heart against God's Word: Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion (Heb 3:15b).

Do you have Scripture in mind that could correct my view?

 

[JLB]

Its Gods Gospel, and I dont need a passage that uses the term total depravity.

All you have done in the last 5 posts is deny the truth with no scripture.


Thanks for proving my point.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Those who follow Christ and His message of salvation can plainly and honestly say with the scriptures, that eternal salvation is for all who obey Him.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I never said that.

brightfame52 has said that on many occasions in various posts.

Well then it seems that you don't agree with his "Theology".


I have asked him to explain from the scriptures how a person is saved without ever hearing the message of salvation through Jesus Christ and the cross.


To this day he can not.



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen.
Total Depravity is NOT a concept found in the OT or in the NT.

Why do you comment on things that you lack understanding of?
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
God has a different view of sin."only evil continually"
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

To the reformed Total Depravity means that every part of a human being is so depraved that it is impossible for a person to seek God.

God had men write scripture. Reformed believers believe what God had them write.

Since there are MANY many verses of God COMMANDING us to seek Him, this concept is clearly incorrect and is not the gospel of Jesus.
2 Chronicles 7:14

Showing you do not understand the biblical gospel once again.Most of those verses are written to those who already know Him.

and if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

This was to Israel, not you.

Acts 17:27-31
25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”


The gospel Jesus left us with is full of hope.
He redeemed humanity.

Multitudes perish in unbelief, Jesus said so.Mt7:21-24

And we have the CAPABILITY of seeking Him and His good news.

Men are dead in sin and unable. God seeks them.

The Good News is that we could be saved by following His teachings,,,,His gospel.
John 3:16 For God so loved THE WORLD....

This shows you do not understand.

Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Mark 16:15
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.


It seems to me that Mark 16:15 includes everyone in all of creation.
I believe Jesus stated what He meant.

No one denies this. You slander reformed believers 24/7

This good news does not exist in the reformed theology since it is God, due to man's INABILITY to seek Him, that requires God to choose who will be saved.

That is great news

Let alone the fact that they believe man does not have free will.

you and others have never proven otherwise. and never will.

Two teachings that necessarily must twist the word of God to accommodate incorrect theology which did not even exist till 1,500 years after Jesus.

Another foolish claim.