An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[brightfame52]

Well, Peter does say they are false teachers. "denying the Lord who bought them" I can see this meaning that they claim to be Christian teachers, so they would be claiming they were bought by the Lord, but they are actually denying him by their lives.

I think the verse below pertains to them.

Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

But yet:
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

I'm getting tired and need to sign off. Maybe somebody could find out what test or examination Paul is talking about.

Maybe when you get a chance you find out what he means.

 

[electedbyHim]

Well, Peter does say they are false teachers. "denying the Lord who bought them" I can see this meaning that they claim to be Christian teachers, so they would be claiming they were bought by the Lord, but they are actually denying him by their lives.

I think the verse below pertains to them.

Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

But yet:
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

I'm getting tired and need to sign off. Maybe somebody could find out what test or examination Paul is talking about.

There are 2 different school of thought pertainint to 2 Corinthians 13:5. We do not need to get into that though.

This is pretty basic on examining yourself.

• Have you a consciousness that you really believe in Jesus Christ, and are depending upon him, and him alone, for salvation? 1 John 5:10.
• Do you bring forth the fruits of faith, which are the fruits of the Spirit, as set before us by the apostle? Gal. 5:6, 22-25. Acts 15:9. 1 John 2:15; 5:4.
• Do you love God supremely, practically, habitually? 1 John 5:1-3.
• Do you love the children of God, for God's sake? 1 John 3:14.
• Are you complying with the apostle's direction in 2 Peter 1:5-10? On what principles do you act—those of the world or of the Bible? What is your predominant object, time or eternity—the world or salvation? 1 Cor. 4:18. Do you deny yourself for Christ's sake, or are you seeking only self-gratification? Matt. 16:25, 26.
• How do you employ your talents of property, intellect, influence? For God or self? Rom. 14:7-9. 1 Cor. 6:20. Phil. 1:21.
• How do you bear your afflictions? With submission or repining? Rom. 5:3.

This is the website that the above is from and has a plethora of resources.

https://www.preceptaustin.org/2corinthians_135_commentary

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever

No! But one is elect before they are born. God chooses the elect to be saved in the future.

Okay, so does that guarantee the elect sinner will be saved ?

 

[JLB]

There is definite communication breakdown.

You are not understanding what we are sayingl.

Read my post again.

People are dead in their sin and cannot come to God. They are at enmity with God and want nothing to do with Him.

They love darkness and hate the light because it exposes their evileness.

If they are spiritually dead they reject anything to do with the Lord.

God has to regenerate them to open their spiritual eyes and ears to accept and act in obedience to the faith the Lord gives them.

I understand perfectly what you people are saying.

You are saying God regenerates, saves a person first then, later on they will have the ability to believe the Gospel, when they hear it.


Now I am asking you to explain how a person is regenerated or born again, or saved without ever hearing the Gospel.

Furthermore, I would ask you clarify as to when this work of regeneration takes place; ie before you are born, in your mothers womb or after you are born.

Please use scripture.


Followers of Christ understand that a people must hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be saved, born again and therefore regenerated.


Followers of Calvinism think that God somehow “Sovereignly” saves or regenerates them first then later on in life when they do hear the Gospel they believe.



JLB

 

[electedbyHim]

I understand perfectly what you people are saying.

You are saying God regenerates, saves a person first then, later on they will have the ability to believe the Gospel, when they hear it.


Now I am asking you to explain how a person is regenerated or born again, or saved without ever hearing the Gospel.

Furthermore, I would ask you clarify as to when this work of regeneration takes place; ie before you are born, in your mothers womb or after you are born.

Please use scripture.


Followers of Christ understand that a people must hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be saved, born again and therefore regenerated.


Followers of Calvinism think that God somehow “Sovereignly” saves or regenerates them first then later on in life when they do hear the Gospel they believe.



JLB

You are saying God regenerates, saves a person first then, later on they will have the ability to believe the Gospel, when they hear it.

That is not a correct statement, so you do not really understand.

Regeneration, belief (faith) and justification are instantaneous. There is no "later on". This is all done in God's perfect timing.

I have heaard the gospel a thousand times before the Lord regenerated me, I do not even know when that happened. I have an idea but not for certain.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

Now I am asking you to explain how a person is regenerated or born again,

By the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

And the Sovereign Work of the Holy Spirit Jn 3:8

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

one has to be born from above,

Now they will believe in hope in Christ

 

[Iconoclast]

That is not a correct statement, so you do not really understand.

Regeneration, belief (faith) and justification are instantaneous. There is no "later on". This is all done in God's perfect timing.

I have heaard the gospel a thousand times before the Lord regenerated me, I do not even know when that happened. I have an idea but not for certain.

Notice JLB does not quote anyone directly, rather he states his theory of what is taught, rather than quote original sources like the historic confessions of faith. This is done to avoid the teaching and substitute their own ideas. You should not be put in a position to answer such an intentional caricature.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

Followers of Christ understand that a people must hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be saved

Problem is, an unregenerate person cannot Spiritually Hear the words of God, you have to be of God to hear Gods word

Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

So if one is not of God, they cannot and will not be able to heart it Spiritually and Understand it Spiritually,

They are dead spiritually in sin

 

[brightfame52]

electedbyhim

Regeneration, belief (faith) and justification are instantaneous. There is no "later on". This is all done in God's perfect timing.

Hi I would disagree with this if you mean Justification before God is at the time of faith. Justification before God took place at the Cross by the Death and Blood of Christ Rom 5:9; Rom 3:24 then when regenerated we believe we are Justified by Christ

 

[Consecrated Life]

We are witnessing total depravity of a nation in real time.
God in His Word judges entire nations to be given over to depravity and He acts accordingly.
America is the number #1 nation in the world for human sexual slavery , child sexual slavery , and production of video material related to both.
The more relevant question these people need to answer in regard to depravity in connection to God's Word is why there is not one mention of what they consider to be the world's greatest nation in future biblical prophecy ?

 

[electedbyHim]

Notice JLB does not quote anyone directly, rather he states his theory of what is taught, rather than quote original sources like the historic confessions of faith. This is done to avoid the teaching and substitute their own ideas. You should not be put in a position to answer such an intentional caricature.

I agree.

JLB has made it know that his ownly source is the Bible. JLB states that anuthing outside the Bible, confessions, commentaries and the like are man made doctrines and heretical.

So much for...

Ephesians 4:11-12 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

 

[electedbyHim]

We are witnessing total depravity of a nation in real time.
God in His Word judges entire nations to be given over to depravity and He acts accordingly.
America is the number #1 nation in the world for human sexual slavery , child sexual slavery , and production of video material related to both.
The more relevant question these people need to answer in regard to depravity in connection to God's Word is why there is not one mention of what they consider to be the world's greatest nation in future biblical prophecy ?

We are living Romans 1:18 and following.

Gods wrath is on this nation with all the sexual depravity.

Apologies for going off topic.

 

[Whatever]

Okay, so does that guarantee the elect sinner will be saved ?

Of course it does.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are probably a million little steps between each bold item above but it always ends up in glorification. That was the goal of the Father sending the Son.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Here is John 3:16 out of the Wycliffe Bible.
16 For God loved so the world [Forsooth God so loved the world], that he gave his one begotten Son, that each man that believeth in him perish not, but have everlasting life.

That "each man" (person) is those He predestined in the beginning. They go trough a process. Being born etc.

 

[Whatever]

You are saying God regenerates, saves a person first then, later on they will have the ability to believe the Gospel, when they hear it.

We are not saying that God will regenerate somebody and then a year later they will believe.
Regeneration is the work of the Spirit and happens when the person hears the gospel.

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Isaiah 55: so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

And the purpose for which He sends it is that all those He predestines hear it, are born again, believe and are then justified and in the end glorified.

1 Thess 1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. . . .

In other words, it is the gospel itself that the Holy Spirit uses in regenerating a person.

 

[Whatever]

This is pretty basic on examining yourself.

There is also something else:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

That bolded one gets me. Most Christians I know seem more enthusiastic about football, basketball and stuff than they do about preaching and teaching. Most Christian parents spend more time and money getting their kids involved with school sports than going to Church or Bible studies and on and on and on.

A lot of Christian men I know can spit out all the names of every football team and who is the quarterback, but can't answer "what is the name of 12 disciples."

Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

I remember one time talking about prayer, I told this woman that I pray for or ask for forgiveness every night when I go to bed. She said "forgiveness for what?" She doesn't realize that every day we set our minds of earthly things and almost never do the things we do just to bring God glory. In other words, we are always falling short.

Jas 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

I don't know about you, but I probably stumble 1,000 times a day.

 

[electedbyHim]

There is also something else:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

That bolded one gets me. Most Christians I know seem more enthusiastic about football, basketball and stuff than they do about preaching and teaching. Most Christian parents spend more time and money getting their kids involved with school sports than going to Church or Bible studies and on and on and on.

A lot of Christian men I know can spit out all the names of every football team and who is the quarterback, but can't answer "what is the name of 12 disciples."

Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

I remember one time talking about prayer, I told this woman that I pray for or ask for forgiveness every night when I go to bed. She said "forgiveness for what?" She doesn't realize that every day we set our minds of earthly things and almost never do the things we do just to bring God glory. In other words, we are always falling short.

Jas 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

I don't know about you, but I probably stumble 1,000 times a day.

Thats it, a thousand?

I have been confessing my sins to the Lord in real-time, as soons as I am aware of them, especially the ungodly thoughts. I also pray that the Lord shows me hidden and pretentious sins as David also did.

Too many so-called Christians will blame satan for these sins and thoughts. Satan is not an issue in my life as much as my sinful flesh. I am accountable for my sins only, I can blame no one else. satan is not sovereign as some would like to believe.

There are some who will have you believe that true Christians never sin. This is simply a prideful sinful doctrine.

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever

Of course it does.

So in a sense the Elect are saved in the Eternal Purpose of God before they exist right ? It was never any chance of them dying in their sins in unbelief, correct ?

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever

Regeneration is the work of the Spirit and happens when the person hears the gospel.

I would disagree, that sounds like Gospel regeneration. Do you know what that is ? I believe regeneration occurs prior to hearing the Gospel, and its prepatory in order to hear and believe the Gospel

 

[JLB]

Whatever



So you believe a person is lost and unregenerate when they hear and believe the Gospel ?

Yes.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
Romans 10:13-14


The way a person is saved, born again and therefore regenerated is by hearing and believing the Gospel; the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believed…



If you don’t agree then please explain how a person is saved without ever hearing and believing the Gospel.





JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't know about you, but I probably stumble 1,000 times a day.

Gee, I am at 1,026 a day. *giggle* *wink*
Maybe if I slept more ...