Angels are Corporeal, not spirits

[Bruce.Leiter]

Prior to The Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 AD, some in the church believed angels had corporeal nature suited to the heavenly realm, that they were not immaterial spirits. Scripture depicts them eating and drinking with Abraham, pulling Lot into the house and shuting the door, wrestling with Jacob who held the angel fast and would not release Him, sitting under a tree with Gideon, waking Peter up and helping him rise to his feet. Angels can be unwittingly entertained by humans who believe they are helping strangers.






Hebrews 1:14 "ministering spirits" does not contradict this, metaphorically angels function as "ministering spirits", its not a statement about their essence. God wouldn't have to "make them "spirits" if they already were, neither is He making them literal fire (Hebrews 1:7). This is metaphorical language describing them as swift and powerful, not defining their essence.



The theory they "materialize" physical forms to interact with humans isn't taught in scripture and in fact contradicts God alone kills and makes alive (Deut. 32:39) and that He alone has creative power (Neh. 9:6).



Never does scripture depict angels or men changing their essence as they cross dimensions into the other realm. Jacob saw angels climb down a ladder, Elijah crossed over in a chariot through a whirlwind, Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration when the Kingdom was present in power, John went through a door:


Christ said resurrected believers would be "equal to the angels" and as they will rise physically from the dead in "supernatural bodies" it follows angels also have corporeal nature that is "equal" to them.



Moreover, when Paul was discussing the various types of heaven bodies that exist, they were all physical "soma", not spirit "pneuma". The resurrection body is a body infused with spirit, not immaterial spirit. It is the same "physical body infused with spirit" that Christ has:






Spirits don't get resurrected, physical bodies do.



For this reason Christians should not be surprised when Satan and his fallen angels appear in physically in a fleet of UFO ships. They use advanced technology to go from place to place. We see that in Ezekeil chapter 1, and scripture expressly declares the stars fought Sisera from heaven:




Regardless how one interprets the symbolism, the angel of the LORD is depicted as seated in a craft that moves.



This is why UFOs do NOT prove ancient alien theory at all. Angels use advanced technology. When Satan and his angels appear on earth after Michael and his angels cast they out of heaven, it’s a strong delusion they are extraterrestrial beings, a Big Lie deception of epic proportions.

Why is this study of angels so important to you, Alfred, when the Scriptures are clear that God is behind the good angels sending them as messengers to us? It's God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as the one, true God, who is the one to whom we should pray, thank, praise, and serve as our God, certainly not the angels.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I have problems with the "sons of God" in Genesis being angels.
I believe Jesus says that Angels do not marry. If so, why would Angels have all the male equipment to make a human woman pregnant? Not just the penis, but the human male DNA XY chromosomes?

I think every time an Angel appears in the Bible, they always appear as mature males. But they are always clothed. You cannot tell if they have any genitalia at all.

I'm pretty sure a human female will not get pregnant from a different species. The egg will not accept the alien sperm.

Somebody once told me that "once they transform in order to be seen, they can transform with all this male equipment." Kind of like a shape shifter I guess.

Obedient angels don't have sex. Evidently, those who sin can.

You make a good argument about "compatibility", I have no answer against it.

Because Peter and Jude support the angels having sex interpretation, a view believed by the entire Church for hundreds of years, I believe it too. I don't have all the answers, I can only go by what seem to be the teaching of scripture.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Why is this study of angels so important to you, Alfred, when the Scriptures are clear that God is behind the good angels sending them as messengers to us? It's God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as the one, true God, who is the one to whom we should pray, thank, praise, and serve as our God, certainly not the angels.

The "strong delusion" fools many. Apart from the demonic influence that overwhelms critical thinking, so people believe in falsehood (aka "the mystery of lawlessness"), people base their opinions on common knowledge.

As most Christians don't belive Satan and angels are physical beings, who can act like spirits in our dimension if they want to, the idea UFO's in the sky are a satanic deception seems to them, not likely. So if a fleet of ufo's arrive, physical....they will believe these are not fallen angels. They will believe the satanic lies the "aliens" preach.

By the way, they are already preaching the BIG LIE in ufo contactee cults. Many already believe Satan will liberate mankind from the tyranny of Yahweh. The History channel even had a video on it. "The Satan conspiracy".

 

[Whatever]

Obedient angels don't have sex. Evidently, those who sin can.

But my question is, if they don't marry, why would they have sexual equipment in the first place?
Adam and Eve had the sexual equipment because we were to multiply.
Apparently Angels don't have to do that.
Men and Women who have been neutered live just fine.

 

[Whatever]

the idea UFO's in the sky are a satanic deception seems to them, not likely

Have you heard of Gary Bates from Creation Ministries International.
It's been a while, but he wrote a book "Alien Intrusion" and them made a movie with that name.

Alien Intrusion Movie pack (DVD)

Pack includes the book and the DVD of Alien Intrusion.

usstore.creation.com

He believes it is demonic stuff happening. He says with what we really know with science it would be impossible for aliens from other galaxies to be able to make it here.

 

[Alfred Persson]

But my question is, if they don't marry, why would they have sexual equipment in the first place?
Adam and Eve had the sexual equipment because we were to multiply.
Apparently Angels don't have to do that.
Men and Women who have been neutered live just fine.

It would appear they have the ability to alter their form to accomplish this. But that is an inference, not revelation by scripture.

Jude refers to strange flesh and likens what they did to the sexual sins of Sodom:

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NKJ)

 

[Whatever]

It would appear they have the ability to alter their form to accomplish this.

But again, corporeal beings who do not marry and thus do not need sexual equipment have the ability to change their forms and create not only a penis, but the human sperm DNA to make a woman pregnant?

Unless they already have this equipment and there are women angels and heaven is just one big orgy. Or just a homosexual paradise.
It might be sin for us to do that because it causes all kinds of disease, but it might be okay up there - no disease, no pregnancies.

 

[Alfred Persson]

But again, corporeal beings who do not marry and thus do not need sexual equipment have the ability to change their forms and create not only a penis, but the human sperm DNA to make a woman pregnant?

Unless they already have this equipment and there are women angels and heaven is just one big orgy. Or just a homosexual paradise.
It might be sin for us to do that because it causes all kinds of disease, but it might be okay up there - no disease, no pregnancies.

I don't see the dilemma, they sinned. They desired something and did what it took to get it.

The flaw in that question is judging what angels can do by what we can do. Scriptures says we are made a little lower than the angels which implies they have abilities we do not:

4 What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor. (Ps. 8:4-5 NKJ)

I do not believe this applies to IQ, intellect. Christ is incarnate in human nature LORD over all. Man has God's image. We are equal to angels in intellectual capacity, but as they don't die and had thousands of years to develop technology, they are far ahead of us.

Look how our tech is changing, how fast. Imagine. Thousands of years of non stop progress. But with our fallen nature we surely would have destroyed ourselves long before now, if our life spans were much longer.

 

[LeviR]

But again, corporeal beings who do not marry and thus do not need sexual equipment have the ability to change their forms and create not only a penis, but the human sperm DNA to make a woman pregnant?

Unless they already have this equipment and there are women angels and heaven is just one big orgy. Or just a homosexual paradise.
It might be sin for us to do that because it causes all kinds of disease, but it might be okay up there - no disease, no pregnancies.

We are now entering the twilight zone.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We are now entering the twilight zone.

I didn't notice that. Didn't read his entire reply. Its out there!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Have you heard of Gary Bates from Creation Ministries International.
It's been a while, but he wrote a book "Alien Intrusion" and them made a movie with that name.

Alien Intrusion Movie pack (DVD)

Pack includes the book and the DVD of Alien Intrusion.

usstore.creation.com

He believes it is demonic stuff happening. He says with what we really know with science it would be impossible for aliens from other galaxies to be able to make it here.

??? Gary says its demonic, but you don't believe that or you do?

Gary and I differ only in corporeality, he is defending Catholic metaphysics, angels are spirits. Most protestants do. I do not, it contradicts scripture and violates Occam's razor. The theory angels materialize bodies is "inelegant."

Why is this important? People are being confused by ancient alien theory, because they think of angels as spirits the appearance of physical UFO phenomena makes them question their world view in a knee jerk fashion.

But if you know the Bible says angels are physical, use technology, then the appearance of physical UFO aliens doesn contradict your world view. They could still be demons.

 

[Whatever]

I just

I don't see the dilemma, they sinned. They desired something and did what it took to get it.

I looked a little closer at the sons of God who came in to the daughters of men." Genesis 6:4

Two verses earlier is says:
Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20:34 Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven

Is somebody going to say that Angels do not marry in Heaven, but came down to Earth to marry women?
Maybe there are no female angels in heaven.

I would say that all Angels are created non sexual. The only reason we are, is so we can "fill the Earth and multiply."

Jesus says resurrected people will not marry. Maybe we will all be non sexual. Some women would find that okay - their boobs get in the way playing sports. They have to bind them tight to keep them from flopping around. Dolly Parton might miss them.

 

[LeviR]

I didn't notice that. Didn't read his entire reply. Its out there!

I believe that if there are any angels up there in the heavens or spending some time here on earth, then they are doing God’s will and not their own.

 

[Whatever]

But if you know the Bible says angels are physical

I don't know that.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

I know the word there is pneuma, and some translations use the word "wind."

use technology

Where do Angels use technology? Was God corporeal when He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve? Or did He just take on a corporeal form to let them see Him?

 

[hawkman]

I looked a little closer at the sons of God who came in to the daughters of men." Genesis 6:4

I have problems with the "sons of God" in Genesis being angels.

Look at what is said in the Book of Job and we see three verses telling us about the sons of God , and Angels is the only way to go with what is said .
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven

Notice WHERE the angels are "In Heaven " , why are we told "in heaven " ? It could have just said "but are like the angels " and we would have understood just fine , but we are given a location as not to confuse us with the angels that sinned , my thoughts anyway .

 

[Alfred Persson]

I just

I looked a little closer at the sons of God who came in to the daughters of men." Genesis 6:4

Two verses earlier is says:
Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20:34 Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven

Is somebody going to say that Angels do not marry in Heaven, but came down to Earth to marry women?
Maybe there are no female angels in heaven.

I would say that all Angels are created non sexual. The only reason we are, is so we can "fill the Earth and multiply."

Jesus says resurrected people will not marry. Maybe we will all be non sexual. Some women would find that okay - their boobs get in the way playing sports. They have to bind them tight to keep them from flopping around. Dolly Parton might miss them.

Jesus was speaking about obedient angels, not fallen angels. I don't have a problem with this for two reasons: 1) I accept what Jude says; 2)I admit ignorance on details, scripture doesn't inform us.

I agree angels don't procreate, they usually appear as males. Some believe "Lilith", translated "night creature" in Isaiah 34:14 is a female demon. Here are are female angels:

Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. (Zech. 5:9 NKJ)

Christ is our Teacher. He says angels don't procreate or marry, that's 100% truth. Scripture is also 100% true, and in Genesis sinning angels go after "strange flesh" (human) and take wives, which is idiom for having sex.

Therefore, I conclude Christ was talking about obedient holy angels, not sinning ones.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).

Other angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan (Isaiah 14:12-20) whom even Satan is a created spirit of God that is why God could never destroy him because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1: 6; Ephesians 6:12). We often call these types of angels demons for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for these angels.

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

The unnamed angels who appear most often in Scripture carry out a variety of tasks—all designed to serve God…

Worship and praise - This is the main activity portrayed in heaven (Isaiah 6:1-3; Revelation 4-5).

Revealing - They serve as messengers to communicate God's will to men. They helped reveal the law to Moses (Acts 7:52-53), and served as the carriers of much of the material in Daniel, and Revelation.

Guiding - Angels gave instructions to Joseph about the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1-2), to the women at the tomb, to Philip (Acts 8:26), and to Cornelius (Acts 10:1-8).

Providing - God has used angels to provide physical needs such as food for Hagar (Genesis 21:17-20), Elijah (1 Kings 19:6), and Christ after His temptation (Matthew 4:11).

Protecting - Keeping God's people out of physical danger, as in the cases of Daniel and the lions, and his three friends in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3 and 6).

Delivering - Getting God's people out of danger once they're in it. Angels released the apostles from prison in Acts 5, and repeated the process for Peter in Acts 12.

Strengthening and encouraging - Angels strengthened Jesus after His temptation (Matt 4:11), encouraged the apostles to keep preaching after releasing them from prison (Acts 5:19-20), and told Paul that everyone on his ship would survive the impending shipwreck (Acts 27:23-25).

Answering prayer - God often uses angels as His means of answering the prayers of His people (Daniel 9:20-24; 10:10-12; Acts 12:1-17).

Caring for believers at the moment of death - In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we read that angels carried the spirit of Lazarus to “Abraham's bosom” when he died (Luke 16:22).

You never know when and where and angel of God will show up and as Hebrews 13:2 says be careful for you never know when you are entertaining angels unaware.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe that if there are any angels up there in the heavens or spending some time here on earth, then they are doing God’s will and not their own.

I agree if you speak of unfallen angels. The Nephilim fallen ones were on earth pre flood making babies, along with the sinning angels:

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (Gen. 6:4 NAS)

The Nephilim are not "giants" like Dinosaurs, they were about 2x taller than average humans. The measurement of a giant

CSBO Deuteronomy 3:11 (Only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. His bed was made of iron. Isn't it in Rabbah of the Ammonites? It is 13 feet six inches long and six feet wide by a standard measure.) (Deut. 3:11 CSBO)

Beds are usually bigger than those who sleep on them. Average hight for humans then probably 5.5 feet.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).

Other angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan (Isaiah 14:12-20) whom even Satan is a created spirit of God that is why God could never destroy him because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1: 6; Ephesians 6:12). We often call these types of angels demons for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for these angels.

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

The unnamed angels who appear most often in Scripture carry out a variety of tasks—all designed to serve God…

Worship and praise - This is the main activity portrayed in heaven (Isaiah 6:1-3; Revelation 4-5).

Revealing - They serve as messengers to communicate God's will to men. They helped reveal the law to Moses (Acts 7:52-53), and served as the carriers of much of the material in Daniel, and Revelation.

Guiding - Angels gave instructions to Joseph about the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1-2), to the women at the tomb, to Philip (Acts 8:26), and to Cornelius (Acts 10:1-8).

Providing - God has used angels to provide physical needs such as food for Hagar (Genesis 21:17-20), Elijah (1 Kings 19:6), and Christ after His temptation (Matthew 4:11).

Protecting - Keeping God's people out of physical danger, as in the cases of Daniel and the lions, and his three friends in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3 and 6).

Delivering - Getting God's people out of danger once they're in it. Angels released the apostles from prison in Acts 5, and repeated the process for Peter in Acts 12.

Strengthening and encouraging - Angels strengthened Jesus after His temptation (Matt 4:11), encouraged the apostles to keep preaching after releasing them from prison (Acts 5:19-20), and told Paul that everyone on his ship would survive the impending shipwreck (Acts 27:23-25).

Answering prayer - God often uses angels as His means of answering the prayers of His people (Daniel 9:20-24; 10:10-12; Acts 12:1-17).

Caring for believers at the moment of death - In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we read that angels carried the spirit of Lazarus to “Abraham's bosom” when he died (Luke 16:22).

You never know when and where and angel of God will show up and as Hebrews 13:2 says be careful for you never know when you are entertaining angels unaware.

Never pondered if some angels are "elect", that means others are not. Elect means a selection occurred.

That elementary logic contradicts your theory about angels.

Those that joined Satan's rebellion weren't "elect angels". Actions prove who is "elect" or not.

God knew those who are His, even before He created angels.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't know that.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

I know the word there is pneuma, and some translations use the word "wind."

Where do Angels use technology? Was God corporeal when He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve? Or did He just take on a corporeal form to let them see Him?

If God had to make his angels spirits, then there was a time they weren't spirits. If God made them spirits, then why did He then make them flames of fire. These aren't the same.

Metaphorical language. God made His angels swift as the wind and terrible as fire.

Hebrews 1:14 calls them ministering spirits, just as a human can be a ministering spirit. Its not about nature. The context is discussing their subordination to Christ, not their chemical composition.

I don't go overboard like the ancient alien theorists, only those scriptures depicting angels using objects may indicate technology, like a wheel or staff, or chariot, or sword. "May" is the operative word.

Elijah was carried by a chariot into the dimension of heaven, therefore angels use technology.
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Ki. 2:11 NKJ)