Angels Do Not Have Sex

[Sparkey]

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

This may have already been pointed out, if so please forgive me for doing so again.

I think possibly it is this phrase "in like manner" that causes the problem. Some read that saying in like manner is referring to fornication and strange flesh, rather than sin and it's consequence "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" which I believe is the theme of this teaching.

I agree. The phrase "in like manner" could be a source of misunderstanding. When we look with care we see that it refers to the cities around Sodom and Gomorrah which, in like manner, also sinned.

 

[Edward]

Edward?? Do me the favor of asking if I feel frustrated or am being sarcastic before drawing your conclusion. My point was that the logic behind your epiphany was inconsistent. You presented Jesus' teaching about the resurrection as if it somehow supported your conclusion.

Did Jesus say that angels marry? I missed that completely. What I heard was His reply to the Sadducee belief that there was no resurrection. He corrected them and replied to the conundrum they presented about the 7 brothers showing that we will be like the angels in heaven who do not marry.

We simply can not teach from silence. We must read the Bible for the specific things it says about a matter. Teaching from what isn't said and reiterating your argument from Post #10, that "who knows what, or where, or what was possible," after they left their habitation is more an admission regarding our lack of understanding then the basis of dogma.


We know that the 'sons of God' (whom you term 'fallenones') left their own habitation. I understand you to believe that they left their bodies and your speculation about the "who knows" part is unsubstantiated. Jesus did not address Genesis 6 at all. It is as reasonable for me to conclude that Angels have sex as it is for me to conclude they share other natural desires, like greed, hence the BoA reference.

The argument from silence simply does not apply.

Fair enough brother. I will ask next time. For the record, my epiphany had nothing to do with this topic or thread. It was about another matter entirely which I did not expound upon, I was just feeling good at the moment and mentioned it. Sorry if this caused any confusion. I'm walking out the door right now to work, but will return later and edit my answers into this post.

have a blessed day.

 

[agua.]

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

This may have already been pointed out, if so please forgive me for doing so again.

I think possibly it is this phrase "in like manner" that causes the problem. Some read that saying in like manner is referring to fornication and strange flesh, rather than sin and it's consequence "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" which I believe is the theme of this teaching.

This is interesting Deb.

Jud 1:6-8 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (8) Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

It seems to me the "in like manner" also refers to the "filthy dreamers who defile the flesh. ie "In like manner" = "Likewise aslo". I don't see how the issue of perverted sexual activity isn't the theme really.

 

[JLB]

Sparrowhawk said -

Here the only clue we are given is that some of the angels "sinned" and for that reason God "cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment…."

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

What would the angels during the time of Noah have been doing that would cause them to eventually be cast down to hell, and cause God to destroy the whole earth by flooding it with water?

What was there sin that would cause God to destroy the natural world of mankind, based on what angels, whose domain is the unseen spirit world did?

What scriptures from the Old Testament would gives use any clue about angels, and there sin, during the time of Noah?




JLB

 

[Sparkey]

What would the angels during the time of Noah have been doing that would cause them to eventually be cast down to hell, and cause God to destroy the whole earth by flooding it with water?

What was there sin that would cause God to destroy the natural world of mankind, based on what angels, whose domain is the unseen spirit world did?

What scriptures from the Old Testament would gives use any clue about angels, and there sin, during the time of Noah?
JLB

Peter warned about Prophets who would declare the word of God falsely. He spoke of cunning. He talked about fables. (see 2 Peter 1:16). While listening to the word of God about them, we get a picture of the characteristics they share. We are also assured that their judgment, their damnation does not slumber. While speaking of them and their judgment, we are given several examples of others who have been judged as well. Peter gives examples of the Judgment of God; he speaks of three specific and different things:

1. Angels were cast from heaven.
2. The earth was flooded with water.
3. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

Peter speaks of the evil that shall come:

[2Pe 2:1-2 KJV] 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Examples of Judgment:

Against certain Angels​

[2Pe 2:4 KJV] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

During Noah's day: The Flood​

[2Pe 2:5 KJV] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

During Abraham's Time: Sodom​

[2Pe 2:6-7 KJV] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

Peter's remarks in summary regarding God's Judgment and ability to save:

[2Pe 2:9 KJV] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.

​

JLB,

You are correct to notice that Peter, while warning of the false prophets that would come, was chiefly warning against those who walk after the flesh (in lust) -AND- those who despise governing authorities. They are of the kind that exalt themselves, they follow their own will, serving themselves only, are presumptuous. That's why I mentioned earlier that the sin of the angels could be characterized in their refusal to serve mankind as they were charged by God to do. But Peter spoke of three different things. We can not think that the angels were responsible for the flood when were are told directly that "GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. [Gen 6:5-8 KJV]

God sent the flood as a judgment against sinful man.

 

[Sparkey]

It seems to me the "in like manner" also refers to the "filthy dreamers who defile the flesh. ie "In like manner" = "Likewise aslo". I don't see how the issue of perverted sexual activity isn't the theme really.

Clearly, perverted sexual activity (and infidelity) is a theme. So also is disobedience and disrespect of lawful authority. The theme addresses the central issue of lawlessness and self-will.

You are correct to say that we are warned against false prophets that will come speaking heresy. “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” [Jude 1:18]

 

[Deborah13]

This is interesting Deb.

Jud 1:6-8 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (8) Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

It seems to me the "in like manner" also refers to the "filthy dreamers who defile the flesh. ie "In like manner" = "Likewise aslo". I don't see how the issue of perverted sexual activity isn't the theme really.

You make a good point and may be correct. This is how I read that scripture.

Examples of those who were/will be destroyed for disobedience.
1. The angels that left their own habitation.
2. Sodom and Gomorrah for fornication and going after strange flesh.
3. Those filthy dreamers. Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares......

The filthy dreamers are in their congregations and are guilty of the same things as others have been.
1. fornication - Sodom
2. despise dominion - the angels
3. speak evil of dignities - possibly both Sodom and the angels

 

[Sparkey]

Interesting also that Jude doesn't mention the flood at all (except perhaps indirectly when he speaks of Enoch). The examples he cites include:

• Israel as unbelievers (complaining in the desert) in verse 5
• Angels which kept not their first estate in verse 6
• Sodom and Gomorrah (fornication and going after strange flesh) in verse 7

Other descriptions of the characteristics of false prophets are found in verse 11 where they are compared to Cain (offered works), Balaam (sought profit) and Core (gainsaying).

 

[Deborah13]

Interesting also that Jude doesn't mention the flood at all (except perhaps indirectly when he speaks of Enoch). The examples he cites include:

• Israel as unbelievers (complaining in the desert) in verse 5
• Angels which kept not their first estate in verse 6
• Sodom and Gomorrah (fornication and going after strange flesh) in verse 7

Other descriptions of the characteristics of false prophets are found in verse 11 where they are compared to Cain (offered works), Balaam (sought profit) and Core (gainsaying).

Good post. A more complete rendering than mine.

 

[Chopper]

No, angels did not have sex with women. Nor did demons, nor is one word "thrown" into the Bible. When the meaning of a particular passage escapes our understanding, why is it the Bible's fault? After all, we can go to the moon, right?

Genesis 6:4 is one of the most controversial passages in the Bible. As with any difficult passage of scripture, it has been open to a wide variety of interpretations. It is my conviction however, that those who hold consistently to a biblical worldview must reject the notion that women and demons can engage in sexual relations. I reject this interjection of pagan superstition into the Scriptures for the following reasons.

First and foremost, the notion that demons can “produce” real bodies and have real sex with real women would invalidate Jesus’ argument for the authenticity of his resurrection. Jesus assured his disciples that “a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have” (Luke 24:39, NKJV). If indeed a demon could produce flesh and bones Jesus’ arguments would not only be flawed, it would be misleading. In fact, it might be logically argued that the disciples did not see the postresurrection appearances of Christ but rather a demon masquerading as the resurrected Christ.

Furthermore, demons are nonsexual nonphysical beings and as such are incapable of having sexual relations and producing physical offspring. To say that demons can create bodies with DNA and fertile sperm is to say that demons have creative power—which is an exclusively divine prerogative. If demons could have sex with women in ancient times, we would have no assurance they could not do so in modern times. Nor would we have any guarantee that the people we encounter every day are fully human. While a biblical worldview does allow for fallen angels to POSSESS unsaved human beings, it does not support the notion that a demon-possessed person can produce offspring that are part-demon, part-human. Genesis 1 makes it clear that all of God’s living creations are designed to reproduce “according to their own kinds.”

Finally, the mutant theory creates serious questions pertaining to the spiritual accountability of hypothetical demon-humans and their relation to humanity’s redemption. Angels rebelled individually, are judged individually, and are offered no plan of redemption in Scripture. On the other hand, humans fell corporately in Adam, are judged corporately in Adam, and are redeemed corporately through Jesus Christ. We have no biblical way of determining what category the demon-humans would fit into—whether they would be judged as angels or as men, or more significantly, whether they might even be among those for whom Christ died.

I believe the better interpretation is that “sons of God” simply refers to the godly descendants of Seth, and “daughters of men” to the ungodly descendants of Cain. Their cohabitation caused humanity to fall into such utter depravity that God said: “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6:7-8).

Lewis, I'm jumping in late on this, I have read quite a lot of the different posts. I'm presently involved in the study of Genesis. We recently covered these verses about the sons of God and the daughters of men and you have correctly interpreted who they were. I just wanted you to know that I agree with your finding on this whole matter of the sons of God.

Good work, no matter what others say about this, IMO you are right on!

If you would like my interpretation on this it is found on the "Bible Study" forum called "Welcome To a Deeper Look At Genesis" post # 372.

 

[agua.]

Clearly, perverted sexual activity (and infidelity) is a theme. So also is disobedience and disrespect of lawful authority. The theme addresses the central issue of lawlessness and self-will.

You are correct to say that we are warned against false prophets that will come speaking heresy. “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” [Jude 1:18]

Yeah Sparrow I agree the overriding theme is ungodliness and as you say sexual perversion is part of that. Despising dominion and speaking evil of dignitaries
also seems to be something sinful Angels will also share with reprobate men don't you think ?

Jud 1:8 KJV Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

I'd still like to know if you accept the habitation Paul talks about in 2Cor is our physical body. ( or new spiritual one ) from post #368.

We know there are 2 types of habitation that Paul talks about for us. Our current one, which we know is flesh and blood, and our heavenly one which we don't know what the substance is. Sparrow do you accept that in 2Cor 5 the habitation ( oikētērion ) is referring to our present and future physical body ?

 

[agua.]

You make a good point and may be correct. This is how I read that scripture.

Examples of those who were/will be destroyed for disobedience.
1. The angels that left their own habitation.
2. Sodom and Gomorrah for fornication and going after strange flesh.
3. Those filthy dreamers. Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares......

The filthy dreamers are in their congregations and are guilty of the same things as others have been.
1. fornication - Sodom
2. despise dominion - the angels
3. speak evil of dignities - possibly both Sodom and the angels

Hmm Deb how can you assume the Angels apply to everything except the sexual perversion ? To do this you must come from an already assumed position imo.

 

[agua.]

Interesting also that Jude doesn't mention the flood at all (except perhaps indirectly when he speaks of Enoch). The examples he cites include:

• Israel as unbelievers (complaining in the desert) in verse 5
• Angels which kept not their first estate in verse 6
• Sodom and Gomorrah (fornication and going after strange flesh) in verse 7

Other descriptions of the characteristics of false prophets are found in verse 11 where they are compared to Cain (offered works), Balaam (sought profit) and Core (gainsaying).

This is very interesting now. Angels are grouped with false prophets in the passage I wonder how we can parallel them in what/why/how they they actually sinned. I'm guessing since Angels are ministering Spirits one that didn't do what he was supposed to would be considered apostate.

 

[Edward]

This is very interesting now. Angels are grouped with false prophets in the passage I wonder how we can parallel them in what/why/how they they actually sinned. I'm guessing since Angels are ministering Spirits one that didn't do what he was supposed to would be considered apostate.

Do you think that the Angels were actually supposed to come down here and help us? They were being cast out of heaven, right?

 

[Deborah13]

Hmm Deb how can you assume the Angels apply to everything except the sexual perversion ? To do this you must come from an already assumed position imo.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

estate =
G747 -
the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
habitation =
G3613 -
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G3611 (equivalent to G3612); a residence (literally or figuratively): - habitation, house.

When I look at the context of the rest of the verse, namely the definition of estate, is where I derived at comparing the word 'dominion' to 'estate.'

dominion =
G2963 -
From G2962; mastery, that is, (concretely and collectively) rulers: - dominion, government.

The verse simply says the angels left their first estate, and their habitation.
Next verse says S & G - fornication and strange flesh
Then verse 8 goes back to those in verse 4 who have crept in and in verse 8 calls them filthy dreamers. And lists these things that were like the angels and Sodom. And possibly Israel, too.
defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

 

[agua.]

Do you think that the Angels were actually supposed to come down here and help us? They were being cast out of heaven, right?

I don't think the Angel apostasy with satan is the same as this Ed. The Jude passage indicates they left their habitation willingly. There's more interesting stuff about what Angels do down here and I think you'll agree they are active in some ways aren't aware of. Maybe you've even entertained 1 or 2 without knowing mate and this being the case I'm guessing they appeared human. What do you think ?

 

[agua.]

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

estate =
G747 -
the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
habitation =
G3613 -
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G3611 (equivalent to G3612); a residence (literally or figuratively): - habitation, house.

When I look at the context of the rest of the verse, namely the definition of estate, is where I derived at comparing the word 'dominion' to 'estate.'

dominion =
G2963 -
From G2962; mastery, that is, (concretely and collectively) rulers: - dominion, government.

The verse simply says the angels left their first estate, and their habitation.
Next verse says S & G - fornication and strange flesh
Then verse 8 goes back to those in verse 4 who have crept in and in verse 8 calls them filthy dreamers. And lists these things that were like the angels and Sodom. And possibly Israel, too.
defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Deb this word habitation (oikētērion) is used by Paul in 2Cor5 to describe our new resurrected body.

2Co 5:2-3 KJV For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house (oikētērion) which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Do you agree that Paul is talking about our physical body here ( new spiritual body ) and not an external abode ? If this is the case then we may be able to accept the Angels left their estate ( heaven ) and spiritual body ( oikētērion) and came to Earth as men.

The prevailing sin mentioned is sexual perversion in Jude for some reason and imo we can assume that sexual perversion isn't the only sins of Sodom and Gomorrah nor the men who crept in /filthy dreamers yet it's emphasised in this passage. Every being in the passage is linked to following their own ungodly desires what do you think the Angels did ? I think ther's something else we overlook here too. These particular Angels who left their abode are held in chains/imprisoned until judgement day. We know all Angels who sinned aren't currently imprisoned because they are active in the world today.

Why are these particular Angels imprisoned ?

 

[JLB]

Lewis, I'm jumping in late on this, I have read quite a lot of the different posts. I'm presently involved in the study of Genesis. We recently covered these verses about the sons of God and the daughters of men and you have correctly interpreted who they were. I just wanted you to know that I agree with your finding on this whole matter of the sons of God.

Good work, no matter what others say about this, IMO you are right on!

If you would like my interpretation on this it is found on the "Bible Study" forum called "Welcome To a Deeper Look At Genesis" post # 372.

Chopper,

Please share your findings here with us. We would love to see the scriptures you have found concerning this matter.

So far it has been determined that Mankind does not produce a son of God. Only God himself can produce a son of God.

Please share brother what you have found with us.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't think the Angel apostasy with satan is the same as this Ed. The Jude passage indicates they left their habitation willingly. There's more interesting stuff about what Angels do down here and I think you'll agree they are active in some ways aren't aware of. Maybe you've even entertained 1 or 2 without knowing mate and this being the case I'm guessing they appeared human. What do you think ?

Agreed.

Notice the phrase in Job.

The sons of God presented themself before The Lord and Satan also came with them.

Scripture shows a distinction between the sons of God and Satan.

We don't see the term sons of God being used to define fallen angels.



JLB

 

[Edward]

I don't think the Angel apostasy with satan is the same as this Ed. The Jude passage indicates they left their habitation willingly. There's more interesting stuff about what Angels do down here and I think you'll agree they are active in some ways aren't aware of. Maybe you've even entertained 1 or 2 without knowing mate and this being the case I'm guessing they appeared human. What do you think ?

Oh sure. I'm sure I have. I even think i met one (who helped me) that I figured out that it was an Angel pretty quick after he left. He just didn't act like most people and was too darn nice! (Who talks you up when you're trying to sell something, and keeps asking you, how much do you need? ;))