Animals as food.....

[tim-from-pa]

Well Drew, I eat what I do so as not to be deficient of nutrients that meat (and animal products) has. I am alluding to the vital nutrients in my post #14. I guess I'm just too freedom-loving and can't get myself to live a denial philosophy, and my conscious is biblically clear with no sin involved. We'll just leave it at that. I only hope that a meatless philosophy is not going to be embraced by the worldly church one day to cram their philosophy down my throat. Make no mistake, there are people out there who elevate the lives of animals so high that they believe everyone should be that way and not eat them. I have no problems if a person wants to live that way, but to push it my way is going too far.

 

[Mike]

I politely suggest you are misunderstanding what Jesus is talking about. He is most certainly not making any kind of declaration about "health" issues - He is addressing the provisions of the Law of Moses, declaring that the time of "unclean foods" has come to an end.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with matters of health. It was the Law of Moses, including the kosher food laws, that marked out the Jew as "special". By declaring that the Law of Moses no longer applies, Jesus is really saying "The Kingdom of God is available to all, not just Jews".

Jesus is not making any kind of judgement on matters of diet and health.

Drew, I think either I didn't make myself clear or you're misunderstanding my post. I realize this was not specifically about health. And I'm not sure this whole thread is about health. It seems it was intended to be about God's plan for food and whether our diets were intended to include meat.

Is there ANYTHING you can think of that Jesus or His disciples did or spoke to that would be an indicator that it is better not to eat meat. There have been numerous points made to make the case that He did not object to it. I do believe someone has to add to the Word to draw this conclusion. Just my opinion.

 

[Lewis]

Woooooooo Weeeeeeeee, my mouth is watering so much, I got a baby bib on.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Woooooooo Weeeeeeeee, my mouth is watering so much, I got a baby bib on.

Did you ever watch the English comedy Benny Hill? I seem to remember a skit where they had roasted a big pig with an apple in its mouth for a banquet the way you often see pigs prepared.

Benny Hill retorted, "Well you could have at least left him finish the thing (apple) first!"

 

[Drew]

Well Drew, I eat what I do so as not to be deficient of nutrients that meat (and animal products) has. I am alluding to the vital nutrients in my post #14. I guess I'm just too freedom-loving and can't get myself to live a denial philosophy, and my conscious is biblically clear with no sin involved.

I suggest that you are not really defending your position Biblically. You are telling us that meat provides nutrients. Fair enough - we all agree on that. But it is quite clear that these nutrients can come from other sources. The "love of freedom" line does not really work - I can claim that "I am just too freedom-loving to not be told to help the poor". Its not a very good argument - we are not talking about freedom, but about the vocation to which the Christian is called. I have seen no counter-argument to the line of thinking that we are called to model the coming future world in which death will have been defeated. So if we can cut down on animal death, we are working to establish the kingdom.

 

[Drew]

Is there ANYTHING you can think of that Jesus or His disciples did or spoke to that would be an indicator that it is better not to eat meat. There have been numerous points made to make the case that He did not object to it. I do believe someone has to add to the Word to draw this conclusion. Just my opinion.

I think you may be buying into the same "if the Bible does not have a 'thou shall do x' or 'thou shalt not do y' statement, we have no Biblical guidance.

I have repeatedly given my argument - so I will not repeat it. But, as in the smoking thread, I will claim that there are certain things that the Biblical narrative calls us to do, and not do, that are implicit in that narrative - we do not need to be "told" to not eat meat, we should figure it out based on:

1. We know that God seeks a world in which death is defeated;
2. We are called to be implementers of what God wants to do;
3. We should therefore do battle with death - seek to defeat it;
4. One way to do this is to stop eating meat if we do not really need to.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I suggest that you are not really defending your position Biblically. You are telling us that meat provides nutrients. Fair enough - we all agree on that. But it is quite clear that these nutrients can come from other sources. The "love of freedom" line does not really work - I can claim that "I am just too freedom-loving to not be told to help the poor". Its not a very good argument - we are not talking about freedom, but about the vocation to which the Christian is called. I have seen no counter-argument to the line of thinking that we are called to model the coming future world in which death will have been defeated. So if we can cut down on animal death, we are working to establish the kingdom.

Well, I'll quote Paul and then let this rest:

Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

I'll promise not to despise your position as long as you don't judge mine. You can have your herbs if you want.

 

[Mike]

Well, I'll quote Paul and then let this rest:

Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

I'll promise not to despise your position as long as you don't judge mine. You can have your herbs if you want.

Exactly! :yes

I think you may be buying into the same "if the Bible does not have a 'thou shall do x' or 'thou shalt not do y' statement, we have no Biblical guidance.

I have repeatedly given my argument - so I will not repeat it. But, as in the smoking thread, I will claim that there are certain things that the Biblical narrative calls us to do, and not do, that are implicit in that narrative - we do not need to be "told" to not eat meat, we should figure it out based on:

1. We know that God seeks a world in which death is defeated;
2. We are called to be implementers of what God wants to do;
3. We should therefore do battle with death - seek to defeat it;
4. One way to do this is to stop eating meat if we do not really need to.

Drew, this is the same road you went down with the smoking thread. You're right. (usual disclaimer - I've never smoked) It seems to me that you are drawing your own conclusions on this and other matters and then taking a defensive posture about them. I will suggest the same thing that I suggested with smoking, although I'm quite sure it will be unheard. If something isn't spoken to in the Bible but IS clearly a sin against the Lord, okay. But if it tests negative on both points, I'm not going to make my own assertions.

It seems to me that you want this to be true, so you force yourself to defend it. There's nothing I can do other than eventually bow out of another conversation. IF it is God's Will that we eliminate from, or minimize meat consumption in, our diets, it seems to me you'd find some reference to this to qualify Christ eating meat or Paul saying what he said. But these things are recorded in the Bible with nothing to say, "but, you shouldn't..." or "but, it's better not to..."

You're a Godly man, Drew. I want to acknowledge my respect for your faith, in spite of our often had disagreements. But I believe you are drawing your own conclusions.

 

[Drew]

Well, I'll quote Paul and then let this rest:

Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

I'll promise not to despise your position as long as you don't judge mine. You can have your herbs if you want.

I think you are taking this out of context. In the letter of Romans, Paul is centrally concerned with Jew-Gentile unity. In that context, there is the contentious matter of what meats are "clean" - the Jews will consider some meats to be unclean, while the Gentiles will not.

Paul believes that the Law of Moses is abolished, so all meats are equally clean. But he realizes some with struggle with this issue. So Paul tells the church to not get hung up on these matters - there may be some who will abstain from all meat because they are worried about eating unclean meats - they are "weak" in the sense that, unlike Paul, they are still convinced that some meats are unclean. And there will be those who share Paul's view - that the kosher food laws have passed away, signifying a new chapter in God's plan.

This is entirely a separate matter from what we are talking about. We already know that just because we are "allowed" to eat meat, this does not mean that eating meat is the "best" choice.

And I suspect that Paul would agree - to the extent that we can, we should model the coming to the world. This world is one in which death is defeated. Death is anti-creational, something that God hates, and sent His own Son to defeat. God loves animals too - its not "all about us". So I think the case is pretty strong -we send a powerful pro-gospel message to the world if we stop "doing business with death" - enjoying meat at the expense of the lives of animals.

 

[Drew]

If something isn't spoken to in the Bible but IS clearly a sin against the Lord, okay. But if it tests negative on both points, I'm not going to make my own assertions.

I suggest that argument in the smoking thread shows that it is a mistaken position - you (and others) repeatedly ignored the argument that smoking can be shown to be sin on the basis of general Biblical principles. I am not sure why you (and others) seem to think that God treats us like children - thinking that we are not capable of discerning how to live without an exhaustive "list" of "do's and don't's".

You are fundamentally avoiding the actual content of my argument - as you did in the smoking thread. At the end of the day, you appear to have an approach to exegesis that demands that all truths about how we should act be communicated to us in terms of "do's and don'ts". I think God does not limit Himself that way. We are given a Biblical narrative -a story that is going somewhere. We know that God hates death and will ultimately defeat it. So why in the world should we not participate in that plan by cutting down on needless killing of animals?

Yes, there is no "thou shalt not eat meat" command. But please - have a little imagination and be open to the possibility that God does not see us little children, needing to be explicitly told each and every thing we are allowed to do.

 

[Drew]

You're a Godly man, Drew. I want to acknowledge my respect for your faith, in spite of our often had disagreements. But I believe you are drawing your own conclusions.

I appreciate your kind words. For my part, I think that your intentions in all these discussions are good - I sense you are seeking Biblical truth. We may not agree on this, and other things, but I sense we agree that when well-intentioned people discuss what the Bible is telling us, we all should ultimately benefit.

 

[GojuBrian]

I think you may be buying into the same "if the Bible does not have a 'thou shall do x' or 'thou shalt not do y' statement, we have no Biblical guidance.

I have repeatedly given my argument - so I will not repeat it. But, as in the smoking thread, I will claim that there are certain things that the Biblical narrative calls us to do, and not do, that are implicit in that narrative - we do not need to be "told" to not eat meat, we should figure it out based on:

1. We know that God seeks a world in which death is defeated;
2. We are called to be implementers of what God wants to do;
3. We should therefore do battle with death - seek to defeat it;
4. One way to do this is to stop eating meat if we do not really need to.

#4. I Really NEED to, therefore I will continue to do so.

Questions for you.
What should we do with all the livestock and poultry? Set them free?
What should we do about hunting? If people stop hunting the animals will overpopulate, get run over, become an extreme nuisance, and likely starve to death.
I'm eating them for their own benefit as well as mine.

 

[ronniechoate34]

I saw this by Drew on the "Animal Rights" thread, and decided it was a topic all it's own and made this thread...



I know that some Christians do indeed believe, in spite of Genesis 9, that it is sin to eat animals.

Yes, in Genesis 9, God did give the animals to be eaten...but, was that just a "temporary" thing...something to keep Noah and the others alive until they could plant crops and harvest them?

Since God created all as vegetarians...animals included...doesn't it stand to reason that, although it is permitted to eat them...it is better to follow God's original plan and be vegetarian?

Thoughts?

I think that if it weren't okay for us to continue to eat animals then Noah and his offspring would have ceased the practice altogether. If that had been the case I doubt that we would still be omnivores today.

 

[Nacho]

#4. I Really NEED to, therefore I will continue to do so.

Questions for you.
What should we do with all the livestock and poultry? Set them free?
What should we do about hunting? If people stop hunting the animals will overpopulate, get run over, become an extreme nuisance, and likely starve to death.
I'm eating them for their own benefit as well as mine.

I don't consider myself a hunter....I consider myself a conservationist.

And I thank God that he allows me to be a conservationist.

And that he made backstraps so yummy!!!

 

[Chris]

Put a normal young human child in a play pen with a live rabbit and some strawberries if that child eats that rabbit and plays with the fruit I will buy everyone on this forum a house and car. It is not a natural

 

[Chris]

If you put a normal young human child In a a play pen with some strawberries and a live white fluffy rabbit. If that child eats that rabbit and pats the strawberries I'll buy everyone on this forum anything they want.
It's not natural for us to want to kill and eat flesh at a young age. A child must be shown this and introduced to it. To children the concept of killing and eating animals usually is distressing. That is our "natural" inbuilt inclination.

I sooo love these threads it makes me want to donate to PETA

 

[Drew]

What should we do with all the livestock and poultry? Set them free?

That's a valid question. I do not have an answer, except to say that it is unlikely that the problem you pose is insumrountable - surely we can find some reasonable way to transition away from meat-eating. I am not an animal expert, so I do not know what would happen if we let all the cows and chickens "run free". But I suspect it would not be the end of the world if we did.

What should we do about hunting? If people stop hunting the animals will overpopulate, get run over, become an extreme nuisance, and likely starve to death.

I have not suggested that we might never need to cull animals.

 

[Oats]

If you put a normal young human child In a aspen with some strawberries and a live white fluffy rabbit. If that child eats that rabbit and pats the strawberries I'll buy everyone on this forum anything they want. It's not natural for us to want it a child must be shown this and introduced to it. To children the concept of killing and eating animals usually is distressing. That is our "natural" inbuilt inclination.

I sooo love these threads it makes me want to donate to PETA

what about all the other carnivores on the planet?

do we stop them from eating other animals, all without killing those other carnivores?

 

[Drew]

If you put a normal young human child In a aspen with some strawberries and a live white fluffy rabbit. If that child eats that rabbit and pats the strawberries I'll buy everyone on this forum anything they want. It's not natural for us to want it a child must be shown this and introduced to it. To children the concept of killing and eating animals usually is distressing. That is our "natural" inbuilt inclination.

I think I agree. Even though humankind is fallen, we still bear enough of the image of God to love His creation and seek to nurture it and care for it. Not use it for it our own entertainment and pleasure.

This issue - how we see animals - really does bring to the fore the distinction between:

1. The God-given call to responsible stewardship of a good creation;

2. The will-to-power in which we see creation as a gold mine that exists to please and entertain us.

 

[Oats]

Woooooooo Weeeeeeeee, my mouth is watering so much, I got a baby bib on.

what is your point, this could be considered offensive, especially in the context of this thread

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i don't see why eating meat is bad, it is natural...