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Anti-Calvinists are exhausting!

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No, people have LOTS of options to be wrong ... Arianism, Nestorianism, Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc.
However, it is still the Doctrines of Grace that emphasize "monergism" and that any "salvation" that happens is 100% "of God"!

Solus Christus​

Sola Fide​

Sola Gratia​

Soli Deo Gloria​

God does takes charge of salvation.
You don't have to be a Calvinist to know and believe this.
The Calvinist view on how this works is not the correct one. That's all.
 
... and yet HERE you are. A Calvinism-hater in the Calvinism section mansplainin' TRUTH to Calvinists 'cause we just don't understand the Bible that we read or what we REALLY mean by the Theology we proclaim. :shrug
I do despise various points in Calvinistic theology. You are right about that. But I think I hate the dogmatism that goes with it, and any other theology, more.

I'm good with opinions and thoughts and insights, but when one gets angry and dogmatic and adopts a bold letter 'to h**l with you' attitude about others not agreeing with them about their hobby horse, pet doctrine that's when it goes beyond simply not liking a particular theological construct and hating the dogmatic nature of pet doctrines.

Why do people think the essence of Christianity is having the one and only correct theology about things that don't matter? Is that what they think it means to 'believe'? Well, it's not.
 
Who knows ... all I ever hear from you is what you DON'T BELIEVE.
You are right. I do not believe various Calvinistic points of theology. That is true. And I can defend where I'm at about those points using the scriptures. The problem is most people simply do not have open minds. They are not looking for truth, and more truth. They're bound by pride to resist change and stick with what they now want to believe is the truth.
 
God does takes charge of salvation.
Then you and I agree on that.

You don't have to be a Calvinist to know and believe this.
I never claimed otherwise.
I just claimed that the Doctrines of Grace affirm this.

The Calvinist view on how this works is not the correct one. That's all.
Thank you for your unsolicited and unsupported opinion.
(I am not sure what I am supposed to do with it, so let's try this ... "Taint's so.") :shrug
 
Christians make the matter of free will difficult because it seems most Christians can only think in a black and white/ either/or way. They think if one extreme is not true the only option available is for the other extreme to be true. That's just not true.
That is a generalization. In a vast theological array of thought there is bound to be error. When getting down to many details there is no option other than true or false.


In the matter of free will, you have as much free will as God allows you to have at any one time.
Metaphysically, this is impossible. God cannot create something He does not control. Since he created all things, he controls all things. Heb. 1:3 "upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word"
Show me a verse that says God does not "uphold and maintain and propel all things". Your making an unsubstantiated statement. Lay down you biblical proof.


We all have free will within the scope of God's will. Like rats in a maze. We're free to travel anywhere in the maze that God has made available for us to travel in, when he makes it available. Christians are always arguing the two extremes.
Give biblical evidence for you theory. Explain Heb. 1:3 "upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word" in relation to your theory.
 
That is a generalization. In a vast theological array of thought there is bound to be error. When getting down to many details there is no option other than true or false.



Metaphysically, this is impossible. God cannot create something He does not control. Since he created all things, he controls all things. Heb. 1:3 "upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word"
Show me a verse that says God does not "uphold and maintain and propel all things". Your making an unsubstantiated statement. Lay down you biblical proof.



Give biblical evidence for you theory. Explain Heb. 1:3 "upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word" in relation to your theory.
Your idea that something cannot be created unless it can also be controlled is not scientifically correct.

But what I really wanted to address was your last sentence.
It just means that God holds everything in place.
If God stopped THINKING about us, we'd just disappear.
It doesn't mean that God is controlling everything in the way that John Piper states.

Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


God strengthens us, He helps us, He UPHOLDS us.
Why would He cause the harm...and the help us?

Temptation may come, but He will provide a way of escape.
God did not CAUSE the temptation, but helps us to overcome it.
 
Your idea that something cannot be created unless it can also be controlled is not scientifically correct.

But what I really wanted to address was your last sentence.
It just means that God holds everything in place.
If God stopped THINKING about us, we'd just disappear.
It doesn't mean that God is controlling everything in the way that John Piper states.

Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


God strengthens us, He helps us, He UPHOLDS us.
Why would He cause the harm...and the help us?

Temptation may come, but He will provide a way of escape.
God did not CAUSE the temptation, but helps us to overcome it.
I will bite .

Does one have the power to stop your heart by thought ?

To kill yourself if God doesn't allow it ?

I personally know a man who took an entire bottle of sleepping pills to commit suicide and woke up the next day and sought repentance.

If God isn't able to act on prayers then why bother with him ?

I know a mother whose child ran away and we ,mom ,myself and my brother prayed for his safe return .that was my nephew . He got on a freight train and In hours he was near the ga border and did it twice ..

A moving train ,it wasn't going fast but he jumped on it .imagine if he tripped and well it wouldn't be good .God spared him .
 
Your idea that something cannot be created unless it can also be controlled is not scientifically correct.
Ah, you missed the part that GOD created it so your statement is irrelevant. Also, as usual, you didn't address my scripture that validated my statement. (aside: agreed, man can create something he does not control)
Find me a verse saying there is something God doesn't control besides an anthropomorphic verse.
Aside: Your theology is man-centered, not God centered so you draw invalid conclusions.

Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


God strengthens us, He helps us, He UPHOLDS us.
Agreed... God UPHOLDS us. Hey, sounds like your on my side of the argument. Here I thought you were going to offer verses where God does NOT UPHOLD us which would support your thesis.


If God stopped THINKING about us, we'd just disappear.
It doesn't mean that God is controlling everything
You offer no scripture again. (as there are none IMO)
I agreed that if God suddenly did not exist we would not exist (glad your not a deist). Your statement supports for my contention that He controls us. Does this mean God is controlling everything .... hmmmm, I would say it does. You can't take a breathe or think a thought if He does not decide to have your existence continue. Acts 17:28, Hebrews 1:3, etc.

Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen. AMP The only way this can be true is if God controls all things.

.... still waiting for your verse(s) telling us God does not control something



God strengthens us, He helps us, He UPHOLDS us.
Why would He cause the harm
I don't see how this is related to God controlling everything .... anyways
Many reasons... justice, discipline ...yahda, yahda

God did not CAUSE the temptation, but helps us to overcome it.
Not directly. Indirectly God caused Christ to be tempted.
Matt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the [Holy] Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
 
Metaphysically, this is impossible. God cannot create something He does not control.
How is the architect and builder and manager of a rat’s maze not in control? As soon as you think of a circumstance that you say is out of control in the rat maze I will tell you what the owner and operator of the maze can do to keep it in his control.

If you’ll just consider it you’ll see it’s a good example of how God and man (us rats) can have free will at the same time. We rats enjoying and walking in the free will that God, the controller of the maze, has allowed us to have at any one time. We’re free to do what we want with the freewill we have.
 
Ah, you missed the part that GOD created it so your statement is irrelevant. Also, as usual, you didn't address my scripture that validated my statement. (aside: agreed, man can create something he does not control)
Find me a verse saying there is something God doesn't control besides an anthropomorphic verse.
Aside: Your theology is man-centered, not God centered so you draw invalid conclusions.


Agreed... God UPHOLDS us. Hey, sounds like your on my side of the argument. Here I thought you were going to offer verses where God does NOT UPHOLD us which would support your thesis.



You offer no scripture again. (as there are none IMO)
I agreed that if God suddenly did not exist we would not exist (glad your not a deist). Your statement supports for my contention that He controls us. Does this mean God is controlling everything .... hmmmm, I would say it does. You can't take a breathe or think a thought if He does not decide to have your existence continue. Acts 17:28, Hebrews 1:3, etc.

Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen. AMP The only way this can be true is if God controls all things.

.... still waiting for your verse(s) telling us God does not control something




I don't see how this is related to God controlling everything .... anyways
Many reasons... justice, discipline ...yahda, yahda


Not directly. Indirectly God caused Christ to be tempted.
Matt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the [Holy] Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
I don't offer scripture because I wasn't really replying to your thread.
Just made a couple of comments.
 
Re: Metaphysically, this is impossible. God cannot create something He does not control.
How is the architect and builder and manager of a rat’s maze not in control?
I don't see the relevance in the context of my statement about God's control. I will guess at what your are getting at ... the architect and builder do control the rat, and God controls the architect and builder. If God ceased to exist, so would they and the rat and the maze.

Aside: An architect and builder do not "upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]." Heb. 1:3



We rats enjoying and walking in the free will that God, the controller of the maze, has allowed us to have at any one time. We’re free to do what we want with the freewill we have.
Give a scripture to support man's free will.... which in the past as I recall you defined it as a choice but did not bother to define what this choice was FREE from. Heb. 1:3 says your choice is not "free" from God. If you say your choice is FREE from me, I grant this but it is not relevant to my statement ... Metaphysically, this is impossible. God cannot create something He does not control.

I repeat, if you can't define what man's Free Will is free from, then discussing FREE WILL is futile.
If you say your free will is free with God, explain Heb. 1:3, Acts 17:28, Col. 1:16-17 and give me scripture showing ANY OF MAN"S DECISIONS ARE FREE FROM GOD ... a scripture verse telling us about FREE WILL would be refreshing... I've never heard of one.
 
I don't see the relevance in the context of my statement about God's control. I will guess at what your are getting at ... the architect and builder do control the rat, and God controls the architect and builder. If God ceased to exist, so would they and the rat and the maze.
<insert face palm emoji here>
No, lol.
It was an analogy.
We are the rats in God's maze.
Rats (us) only have as much freewill in the maze as the controller of the maze (God) allows them to have when he allows them to have it.

Instead of frustrating my analogy in order to evade it can you think of a reason why that is not a good illustration of how two independent beings can have and exercise freewill at the same time? Can't wait, lol. This ought to be good...but not in a good way. :lol
 
Heb. 1:3 says your choice is not "free" from God. If you say your choice is FREE from me, I grant this but it is not relevant to my statement ... Metaphysically, this is impossible. God cannot create something He does not control.

I repeat, if you can't define what man's Free Will is free from, then discussing FREE WILL is futile.
If you say your free will is free with God, explain Heb. 1:3, Acts 17:28, Col. 1:16-17 and give me scripture showing ANY OF MAN"S DECISIONS ARE FREE FROM GOD ... a scripture verse telling us about FREE WILL would be refreshing... I've never heard of one.
It's interesting that you don't even understand freewill in Calvinist thought.

It's not that man doesn't have freewill. It's that God assigns the freewill you will have, or won't have, according to his purposeful and intentional will determined before the beginning of creation. So says Calvinism.

The commands in the Bible for man to respond in a particular way to the gospel message provoke the will of the person that God determined ahead of time that he will give them. This is Calvinist thought, not mine. I assert that the testimony of God provokes the person to respond to the gospel message the way they want/will to respond as an inherent potential to love or not love the truth found within themselves as created, conscious beings. But they only have this freedom of decision during the window of opportunity that God is calling them and giving them the opportunity to respond to it.

I see this all the time. Calvinists not knowing their own theology very well.
 
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I did, but you CHOSE not to acknowledge it.
To the best of my recollection ... you defined FREE WILL as a choice. Your purgative, but with so broad a definition I decided it would be useless to engage further.


We are the rats in God's maze.
Rats (us) only have as much freewill in the maze as the controller of the maze (God) allows them to have when he allows them to have it.
Ah, gotcha now. The analogy fits my definition of God's relationship to us. I assign FREE WILL to God alone as He is self sufficient and unaffected by what we do according to scripture. Job 22:2; Job 41:11 (note: I use scripture to back up most statements about God) The fact that God is unaffected by us makes Free Will ineffective at best and more probably imaginary.



Instead of frustrating my analogy in order to evade it
You frustrated your analogy by not making it clear. Perhaps to make the discussion more efficient and not hide your truth behind analogies you should just speak plainly, hopefully with attesting scriptures.

can you think of a reason why that is not a good illustration of how two independent beings can have and exercise freewill at the same time?
Perhaps to make the discussion more efficient and not hide your truth behind analogies you should just speak plainly, hopefully with attesting scriptures. I says God controls all things and you disagree. Seeing at scripture is almost our only source of knowledge of God I think it behooves you to use it to make points rather than equivocal argumentation.
Aside: I doubt you will refer to scripture when making points about God ... surprise me.
This ought to be bad, and not in a good way. :lol
 
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