Anti-Calvinists are exhausting!

[Fastfredy0]

It's interesting that you don't even understand freewill in Calvinist thought.

?????

It's not that man doesn't have freewill. It's that God assigns the freewill you will have, or won't have, according to his purposeful and intentional will determined before the beginning of creation. So says Calvinism.

You're getting off track. You haven't even define FREE WILL beyond "It's a choice" so it is futile to develop thought without foundation. *sigh*

The commands in the Bible for man to respond in a particular way to the gospel message provoke the will of the person that God determined ahead of time that he will give them. This is Calvinist thought, not mine.

Sounds about right. So wordy as to be difficult to understand. To my knowledge Reformed thought doesn't have a authorized definition of Free Will. If you have a source, to me what it is ...note: a guy saying he is Reformed and given a definition is hardly a good source. Aside: not sure why we are going down this rabbit trail. Perhaps you shoud state what the question is that is at hand as your comments have gone off on a tangent.
I believe we are discussing my statement that GOD CONTROLS ALL THINGS. I think you say this is false. Assuming you agree, maybe you should get back to the topic.

I assert that the testimony of God provokes the person to respond to the gospel message the way they want/will to respond as an inherent potential to love or not love the truth found within themselves as created, conscious beings.

Well .. I think back on topic.
Agreed, God provokes (causes) the person to respond (or not respond) to the gospel message the way they want (where their wants/desires are determined by God); to love or not love truth. Very good. I agree with your statement and add the reason why they responded in (brackets).
Note: you used no scripture to back up what you said, but seeing as it could fit my theme I won't argue with it.
I think I need to help you out.... you need to say how people make this decision outside of God's control ... otherwise, you are just agreeing with me. *sigh*

I see this all the time. Calvinists not knowing their own theology very well.

Irrelevant. I can make a similar irrelevant statement. I see non-reformed people thinking they know reformed theology all the time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ah, gotcha now. The analogy fits my definition of God's relationship to us.

Almost.

The difference is Calvinism says God assigned you what 'will' you will have and exercise in the maze, and determines when you will exercise it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: I said you defined FREE WILL as a choice.

And that's a problem?
Freewill is the freedom to choose.

Sighs ... this is a waste of time.
I pointed this out several times. There's a reason why they put the adjective FREE in front of the noun WILL. You got the WILL part which means A CHOICE. The FREE past you refuse to define.

Freewill is the freedom to choose.

FREEDOM FROM WHAT???? lol.... WHAT MAKES YOUR CHOICE NOT FREE????

I give up .... we've reached an impasse. You can't communicate your ideas or I am not smart enough to understand them.

I'll help you out. Here are some examples of a full definition of FREE WILL where the "FREE" part is given:

1. The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will.
2. The ability to choose according to your greatest desire (Augustine)
3. The ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio *source unknown

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You're getting off track. You haven't even define FREE WILL beyond "It's a choice" so it is futile to develop thought without foundation. *sigh*

I've explained this to you, lol.

Man has the freewill to accept or reject the gospel when God gives him the choice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sounds about right. So wordy as to be difficult to understand.

I'm sorry that Calvinist doctrine is overthought and, thus, complicated, and, therefore, difficult to understand.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You frustrated your analogy by not making it clear. Perhaps to make the discussion more efficient and not hide your truth behind analogies you should just speak plainly, hopefully with attesting scriptures.

God speaks the word of faith to lost people and that faith inhabiting that word allows them to make the unhindered freewill decision to either reject or receive what the word of faith is showing them is true.

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
1 Timothy 1:19

The testimony of God by the Holy Spirit opens up the part of the maze where fallen man had no freewill to choose to enter. Only through the hearing of the word through which faith comes is a person allowed by God to exercise the freewill they now have to enter a different part of the maze of life, owned and controlled by God, that they previously had no freewill to enter into.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I says God controls all things and you disagree.

This is so simple that it's going right over your head, or you're purposely acting confused to evade the simple, logical explanation I'm giving and which you are having difficulty refuting.

He does control all things. He controls when and where you will have and exercise your freewill. This is so simple compared to your overthought, complicated Calvinist doctrines. See, the answer is in between the two extremes that Christians argue about freewill. It's always an 'all or nothing' thing, when it's actually a 'when and how' thing. Man's will, when he has it, operates within the scope and control of God's will. I honestly think you can see and understand what I'm saying but you can't bring yourself to receive it, because it doesn't fit in with your determined Calvinistic predispositions despite the fact that it's wholly reasonable and logical and possible. And so you act confused by it. You're choosing to reject it.

27When they arrived, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them, and how He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles. Acts 14:7

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
1 Timothy 1:19

 

[Fastfredy0]

He does control all things. He controls when and where you will have and exercise your freewill.

LOL ... so you're saying God controls all things including when He does not control all things. A = not A

 

[Jethro Bodine]

LOL ... so you're saying God controls all things including when He does not control all things. A = not A

Oh, good grief. You're purposely trying to frustrate what I'm saying.

How is God keeping man's freewill within the scope of his own freewill him not being in control, lol? I can tell you know it's a valid viewpoint but you can't bring yourself to acknowledge it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

@atp

Oh, good grief. You're purposely trying to frustrate what I'm saying.

How is God keeping man's freewill within the scope of his own freewill him not being in control, lol? I can tell you know it's a valid viewpoint but you can't bring yourself to acknowledge it.

Well, one of us is off target. We both think it's the other.
How God can control all things by giving man the freedom to control God in certain circumstances is either beyond me or a logical contradiction.
You think you've defined FREE WILL adequately, I don't.
We're at an impasse.

 

[atpollard]

It's not that man doesn't have freewill. It's that God assigns the freewill you will have, or won't have, according to his purposeful and intentional will determined before the beginning of creation. So says Calvinism.

Could you quote a Calvinist source to support that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You think you've defined FREE WILL adequately, I don't.
We're at an impasse.

Augustine's definition is a joke.
Abandon that and think for yourself and you'll get it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Could you quote a Calvinist source to support that?

To save time just have FF confirm what I wrote. He's on board with it. I represented it correctly.

 

[atpollard]

And that's a problem?
Freewill is the freedom to choose. I don't know why anyone would complicate it beyond that.

Do you mean like the way a crack addict is free to choose to take drugs or to take drugs? (Addiction doesn’t really give you the option to NOT be an addict).

Mankind is addicted to sin.
A radical transformation by the Holy Spirit from within is the only cure.
Any talk about “free choice” at self transformation is “self-delusion”.

[John 3:19-20 NASB20] "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How God can control all things by giving man the freedom to control God in certain circumstances is either beyond me or a logical contradiction.

Good grief, man! God gives man the freedom to 'control' him in certain circumstances. For example he WILL save the man who calls on him, and he WILL open up the windows of heaven for the man who tests him in tithing. God has bound himself to be 'controlled' by man this way. He is obligated by his own word to do that. And you say God never lets man 'control' him? He literally challenges us to do that!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you mean like the way a crack addict is free to choose to take drugs or to take drugs? (Addiction doesn’t really give you the option to NOT be an addict).

No.
I mean when God gives the drug addict the freedom to stay in his addiction or be set free from it. In that moment that person is given the freewill to choose God or reject him. He doesn't have that freewill until God let's him have it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mankind is addicted to sin.
A radical transformation by the Holy Spirit from within is the only cure.
Any talk about “free choice” at self transformation is “self-delusion”.

I agree completely.
Man does not have freewill in the matter of sin until God grants it to him. Man's freewill in this regard can only operate within the scope of God's freewill. God determines when and how the sinner can have and exercise his freewill to choose him or reject him. Calvinism says God determines what 'will' the sinner will have no choice but to have when God opens up the door of faith for him to exercise that will. If you think having the choice to have faith or not is not a choice given to man I quoted the verse that says men do reject the very faith that Paul says we are to hold on to (1 Timothy 1:19).

 

[Fastfredy0]

To save time just have FF confirm what I wrote. He's on board with it. I represented it correctly.

Again, I think you are confused ... at least one of us is.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Good grief, man! God gives man the freedom to 'control' him in certain circumstances. For example he WILL save the man who calls on him, and he WILL open up the windows of heaven for the man who tests him in tithing. God has bound himself to be 'controlled' by man this way.

So, God is our robot at times...
Seems to conflict with Romans 11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it would be paid back to him? .... so, according to you ... when it comes to salvation GOD is a puppet on my strings and is obligated to adopt me as His son if I self-determine faith. Kool
Aside: You offer no scripture to back your assertions. Free Will people almost never have verses. I wonder why

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, God is our robot at times...
Seems to conflict with Romans 11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it would be paid back to him? .... so, according to you ... when it comes to salvation GOD is a puppet on my strings and is obligated to adopt me as His son if I self-determine faith. Kool
Aside: You offer no scripture to back your assertions. Free Will people almost never have verses. I wonder why

No. Stop demonizing what I said, lol. (Let's not forget, you're the one with the 'robot' theology.)

God has told us how we can move his hand on our behalf.
I really thought you knew these scriptures that I was referring to:

11It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” Romans 10:11 BSB

13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13 BSB

10Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house. Test Me in this,” says the LORD of Hosts. “See if I will not open the windows of heaven and pour out for you blessing without measure. Malachi 3:10 BSB