Apostasy

[PDoug]

Hi there ALL !

My understanding of the "great apostacy" or "falling away" happens when the anti-[ Anti=meaning instead of] christ appears on Mount Zion claiming to be Jesus Christ, working signs and wonders, even making fire [ Fire= meaning Lightening] come down from heaven in the sight of men. I believe it is when the spurious messiah, the dragon, that old serpent, satan, the devil, appears along with his angels, that it will be at that time that MOST of the world will fall away from the True Jesus Christ, to the false christ. It is my understanding that they "fall away" becasue they think that it is Jesus Christ, but it's NOT. Those that do not fall away, will be those that are sealed with the Truth of God's Word in their minds, in that they know that he is a FAKE ! And they understand that satan come in the 6th trump, as the anti-christ; and the True Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump ! Am I way off ?

Abiyah

As the scripture quoted in this message indicates, the great apostasy takes place at the end of the era of the early Church, and continues until the true gospel is preached once again. The sign that the true gospel has been preached is the emergence of the antichrist. Therefore because the antichrist has not yet emerged, we are still in the great apostasy.

At least one scripture indicates a great stupor will fall over the earth, and people will ignore Christ when He said that when He returns, He will return in glory with His angels (Matthew 24:23-31). Therefore when the antichrist performs miracles, signs and wonders, through the aid of spirits that govern our world (in acts of trangression of God's law) many will disregard the above scripture and believe in the antichrist anyway.

Will there also be a falling away among those converted to the true gospel? Yes. In fact, most who will be converted to the true gospel will also fall away.

 

[dcookcan]

Hi there ALL !

My understanding of the "great apostacy" or "falling away" happens when the anti-[ Anti=meaning instead of] christ appears on Mount Zion claiming to be Jesus Christ, working signs and wonders, even making fire [ Fire= meaning Lightening] come down from heaven in the sight of men. I believe it is when the spurious messiah, the dragon, that old serpent, satan, the devil, appears along with his angels, that it will be at that time that MOST of the world will fall away from the True Jesus Christ, to the false christ. It is my understanding that they "fall away" becasue they think that it is Jesus Christ, but it's NOT. Those that do not fall away, will be those that are sealed with the Truth of God's Word in their minds, in that they know that he is a FAKE ! And they understand that satan come in the 6th trump, as the anti-christ; and the True Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump ! Am I way off ?

Abiyah

As the scripture quoted in this message indicates, the great apostasy takes place at the end of the era of the early Church, and continues until the true gospel is preached once again. The sign that the true gospel has been preached is the emergence of the antichrist. Therefore because the antichrist has not yet emerged, we are still in the great apostasy.

At least one scripture indicates a great stupor will fall over the earth, and people will ignore Christ when He said that when He returns, He will return in glory with His angels (Matthew 24:23-31). Therefore when the antichrist performs miracles, signs and wonders, through the aid of spirits that govern our world (in acts of trangression of God's law) many will disregard the above scripture and believe in the antichrist anyway.

Will there also be a falling away among those converted to the true gospel? Yes. In fact, most who will be converted to the true gospel will also fall away.

I agree with most of what you posted here PDoug. I believe we are currently in the midst of the great falling away. Many christians believe that the apostasy involves an 'all of a sudden' or 'out of nowhere' kind of event. But in reality, the scripture states the the falling away must come first. There is nothing in the scripture that suggests it will be sudden. In my humble opinion, it has been happening gradually over the past two thousand years. After all, Paul said that the spirit of Antichrist was already at work in his day.

 

[John the Baptist]

Falling away, heretic, your house is left unto you DESOLATE, Abomination of Desolation? these are nothing New God states! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Just twice! At Christ's first advent & just before He comes the second time!

So just check it out in past history. Surely the folds of Revelation 17:5 have already made shipwreck! Both on doctrine & living in known sin.
1 John 5:16-17 ending, sin unto death. From start of sin to its finish! James 1:15.

Christ's OWN were [in] His Virgin fold, were they not? Matthew 10:5-6 & John 1:11. These are not the world's professed Christian folds here surely! And He tells of other wrong folds in John 10:16. So it seems to me that this shaking, or falling away is in the Lord's Virgin doctrine true fold, once again!

I wonder if any one is interested in what Adventist's E.G.W. has to say about the 'shaking'? in Early Writings pgs. 270-1. Perhaps an Adventist might post this up, if there is interest?

Anyway: This second mighty falling away or shaking will proceed Christ's second advent! (as in both 'repeated' times)
See 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 WARNING! But, who today that is YOKED INSIDE of this, knows about it??? : 1 Peter 4:17 has documented it!

---John

 

[jtartar]

Many Christians are well aware of the aspostasy that is to come before the anti-christ is revealed.

2Th 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The apostasy or falling away is a translation of the greek word apostasia. This word is only used twice in the entire NT. Therefore, the other reference is likely important to understand the truth of what will happen during the apostasy. (btw - the other reference is not what you may be thinking.)

I am interested in discussing this topic and I believe that people should be able to study and discern the truth for themselves; so, I will not state my opinion on the matter until people have a chance to be good bereans.

What is the apostasy?

 

[John the Baptist]

Hay, no dis/respect meant. Personally for me, I stand by the Word of God that I posted!

For any real thinking Born Again Believer, what could be any more Scripturally PLAIN than Christ Words of Matthew 23:38?? This HOUSE was Christ OWN!
Now: What does DESOLATE MEAN??? DESOLATE OF WHOM??? Desolate of CHRIST!!! And what shaking could be any more scripturally important than that!! ???????
Now, again: When Christ was REJECTED by His own fold, denomination, Church, (call it what ever you desire) who immediately came to the DESOLATE FOLDS rescue? Again see Revelation 3:9 repeat. (or Genesis 4:7)

This shaken fold became killer's of not only Christ, but all who were not SHAKEN out of the Truth. (see Genesis 6:3 & striving! and Matthew 25:10's Shut Door) Did you get that??? Who followed Christ OUT??? (see Matthew 25:6) Who was now the church? Who stayed put and was now the synagogue of satan?

SO: When one talks of FALLING AWAY, they need to first consider who it was that left and who it was that stayed put?? Unless one thinks that a DESOLATE OF CHRIST FOLD has not fallen away??? Hebrews 6:6. :

---John

 

[dcookcan]

Falling away, heretic, your house is left unto you DESOLATE, Abomination of Desolation? these are nothing New God states! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Just twice! At Christ's first advent & just before He comes the second time!

So just check it out in past history. Surely the folds of Revelation 17:5 have already made shipwreck! Both on doctrine & living in known sin.
1 John 5:16-17 ending, sin unto death. From start of sin to its finish! James 1:15.

Christ's OWN were [in] His Virgin fold, were they not? Matthew 10:5-6 & John 1:11. These are not the world's professed Christian folds here surely! And He tells of other wrong folds in John 10:16. So it seems to me that this shaking, or falling away is in the Lord's Virgin doctrine true fold, once again!

I wonder if any one is interested in what Adventist's E.G.W. has to say about the 'shaking'? in Early Writings pgs. 270-1. Perhaps an Adventist might post this up, if there is interest?

Anyway: This second mighty falling away or shaking will proceed Christ's second advent! (as in both 'repeated' times)
See 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 WARNING! But, who today that is YOKED INSIDE of this, knows about it??? : 1 Peter 4:17 has documented it!

---John

Sorry John; I simply am unable to follow your logic. I try to understand the New Covenant scriptures in their first century context and then apply them to today. I can see that that may be problematic for someone who only new the inside of the SDA church, as opposed to the christian church as a whole.

Just a note to your reference of Jesus 1st and 2nd coming: His death/resurrection was not the first time He was on the scene. I prefer to simply refer to His return, rather than second coming. Recall that Jesus said the Law and the Prophets wrote of Him? The OT is replete with encounters between Jesus and men.

 

[dcookcan]

Hay, no dis/respect meant. Personally for me, I stand by the Word of God that I posted!

For any real thinking Born Again Believer, what could be any more Scripturally PLAIN than Christ Words of Matthew 23:38?? This HOUSE was Christ OWN!
Now: What does DESOLATE MEAN??? DESOLATE OF WHOM??? Desolate of CHRIST!!! And what shaking could be any more scripturally important than that!! ???????
Now, again: When Christ was REJECTED by His own fold, denomination, Church, (call it what ever you desire) who immediately came to the DESOLATE FOLDS rescue? Again see Revelation 3:9 repeat. (or Genesis 4:7)

This shaken fold became killer's of not only Christ, but all who were not SHAKEN out of the Truth. (see Genesis 6:3 & striving! and Matthew 25:10's Shut Door) Did you get that??? Who followed Christ OUT??? (see Matthew 25:6) Who was now the church? Who stayed put and was now the synagogue of satan?

SO: When one talks of FALLING AWAY, they need to first consider who it was that left and who it was that stayed put?? Unless one thinks that a DESOLATE OF CHRIST FOLD has not fallen away??? Hebrews 6:6. :

---John

I have taken no offense to anything you have posted or said. I stand by the scriptures as well, but I don't follow your logic.

Your Matthew 23:38 is a reference to Jerusalem and the Temple. Both were not shaken, they were destroyed.
Revelation 3:9 does not mention a desolate fold. The letters to the churches stated the good, bad and the ugly in each church. Every denomination has there own little take on where they fit in to these letters.
Gen 4:7 is irrelevant to the other scriptures you have posted.
Gen 6:3 gives the expected life span of men; this does not jive with Mat 25:10. It is the bride who follows her Husband out of the wedding; this is a reference to the faithful believers, not any single denomination.

Once again, the Heb 6:6 falling away does not originate from the same Greek word in Thes and Acts.

 

[John the Baptist]

I have taken no offense to anything you have posted or said. I stand by the scriptures as well, but I don't follow your logic.

Your Matthew 23:38 is a reference to Jerusalem and the Temple. Both were not shaken, they were destroyed.

******
OK: (John here)
If one understands Daniel 9:27's verse, we see both 'rejections' included & mentioned. And in two of what we call the Gospels, we see both, also mentioned.
That make sense no other way than by being two different time periods! See Matthew 24:15-16 for the destruction of the temple. (or Luke 21:20) One see's armies and flight. (Loud Cry of 70AD) One then also see 'The ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet [STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE] ..."

And take note: He is just standing there! No armies, NO FORCE, just INVITED! He has taken over when the Lord's True Virgin Fold rejected Him!Matthew 23:38 finds the Virgin Fold of Christ DESOLATE OF *HIM!!!

Now: Who took over? Again see Revelation 3:9 for the same twice repeated history! Again: Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 for documentation! Read it in Isaiah 5:3 for what the shaking consisted of!

Now, before the temple was demolished, Christ was rejected, right? The time/frame was some 36 years apart. From 27-34 AD.'s anointing of Christ for His work, at John's baptism. God the Father ordained His start or approval of Christ's ministry. And from that point on to the time of the stoning of Stephen's was seven times. (or years) Daniel states that.. 'In the 'Midst of the week the messiah was cut off'. Paul was then used for the Gentil work.

One is the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION (Matthew 23:38) or "Midnight Cry' of Matthew 25:6 & the other is the "Loud Cry" of the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. (comparable with 666 & Ezekiel 9's Loud Cry!! READ IT!)

Remember that both Christ in His Word & Paul, by Christ's 'Inspired' Word, told us that this last work of prophecy will be "CUT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS". (no more 36 years)

If one reads E.W. by E.G.W. she is hazy on the two, she states that it seemed that it followed one after the other? (or something to that effect. but that is the reason why) I put this here in case there are any Adventist reading this.
******

Revelation 3:9 does not mention a desolate fold. The letters to the churches stated the good, bad and the ugly in each church. Every denomination has there own little take on where they fit in to these letters.

*****
If one is spiritually sharp they can find that all need more study. Study Revelation 3:7-17 and you can find extra truth. One of either the sixth or seventh 'fold' turn into verse 9's "synagogue of satan" The other is kept from the great 666 testing that is for the worlds professed Christians, just before Christ comes! Only these two are on the scene as having onr time pure doctrines. The seventh one? Is spewed out! Check Revelation 3:17 & Revelation 3:10 for which of the two are these ones?
*****

And Gen
Gen 4:7 is irrelevant to the other scriptures you have posted.
Gen 6:3 gives the expected life span of men; this does not jive with Mat 25:10. It is the bride who follows her Husband out of the wedding; this is a reference to the faithful believers, not any single denomination.

*****
On the above verses CAIN WAS GIVEN HIS LAST TESTING in Genesis 4:7.
666 is for the professed Bride of planet earth, for their LAST STRIVING testing! (not the ones of 1 Peter 4:7)

And you say that this Genesis 6:3 verse is irrelevant? The two verses are right on target! We see no unity among professed Christians. Look at the forums??? : How many are seen in Romans 8:14 as being ''LED"? So God has forewarned us that His Holy Spirit "will not always STRIVE with man"

And the Matthew 25 chapter finds only the Virgins Fold mentioned, not the Revelation 17:1-5 ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH ONES. (the compliers caps) And your Greek words??? You best see Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 instead of the Greek!
****

Once again, the Heb 6:6 falling away does not originate from the same Greek word in Thes and Acts.

 

[dcookcan]

And your Greek words??? You best see Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 instead of the Greek!

The beauty of referencing the original languages used in scripture is that you are not bound by the biases and preconceived notions of the translators. There are many english words used in the different translations that have been added; there are also many Greek words that have been deleted.

This is the heart of apologetics.

Perhaps you should expand your horizons and get a concordance or an interlinear translation.

 

[John the Baptist]

And your Greek words??? You best see Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 instead of the Greek!

. There are many english words used in the different translations that have been added; there are also many Greek words that have been deleted.

This is the heart of apologetics.

Perhaps you should expand your horizons and get a concordance or an interlinear translation.

*******
But, did you catch the verses given in the 'last day increased knowledge' time??? Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16. So, without the ream's & ream's of added stuff that man gives, it seems that Christ's total Word is its own hermeneutics. (And don't forget 1 Corinthians 14:32 JOHN! :fadein

You say: The beauty of referencing the original languages used in scripture is that you are not bound by the biases and preconceived notions of the translators. These dudes are all 'inspired' huh? I have way to many of these Ph. D's Loadicean garbling books already! (Yes, I do like my Strong's).

And the Greek who added the chapter headings, numbers, period's, coma's + all were Born Again believers??? Come on, get real! : No offence intended! : (you know, there is an Ezekiel 37 & Matthew 25:5 dead & all sleeping! must have some connection?)

Anyhow I believe the above Matt. & Tim. verses are basic essentials! And I like 1 John 4:6 also! "We are of God: he that is of God heareth us; he that is not of God, heareth not us. Hereby know we the Spirit of truth, and the Spirit of error." I see NO mention even, of these Greek ones in that verse?

---Your friend in Christ, John (see 1 Peter 4:17)

PS: I am a firm believer that the state of planet earth is largely the cause of all of this supposed education! See Luke 12:47-48, but perhaps one needs simplicity to see where I am coming from?