Are Children born damned or saved?

[Serving Zion]

How then do you explain...

EXTRA CREDIT: explain the last verse

May I?

 

[Serving Zion]

I would need to know what the child was protesting against, otherwise how would I know that the parent wasn't the bad one?

You have laughed at this crossnote ? It is not a joke, it's a well known problem (eg Ephesians 6:4, Colossians 3:21, Malachi 4:6).

 

[crossnote]

May I?

sure, it was asked not as a challenge but because I don't know.

 

[crossnote]

You have laughed at this crossnote ? It is not a joke, it's a well known problem (eg Ephesians 6:4, Colossians 3:21, Malachi 4:6).

True it is not a joke, but still, it struck me as humorous. (perhaps I have a strange sense of humor) :biggrin

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How then do you explain...

Mark 10:14-16 (KJV) But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

Matthew 18:10 (KJV) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

EXTRA CREDIT: explain the last verse

It's easy to see that these passages include children as God wants us all to be his children.
Mark 10:13 shows the bigotry of the people and the dismissal of the needy.
Jesus tells them of his divine displeasure of their actions.
The simplicity of the children and their spiritual receptivity to God's kingdom is expressed here.

Matthew 18:10 is giving us warnings against being despisers as we have a duty to the weak.
For we (as children) have ministering angels with a heavenly vision (on our behalf) before our Father in heaven.

And thanks for making me do my studying to give you your answer.

 

[crossnote]

Matthew 18:10 is giving us warnings against being despisers as we have a duty to the weak.
For we (as children) have ministering angels with a heavenly vision (on our behalf) before our Father in heaven.

Matthew 18:10 (NASB) "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

I'm still not convinced that His reference is to us as disciples for in vs.2 it says he called a child to Himself...
Matthew 18:2 (NASB) And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,...

...almost like a 'show and tell' and then goes on to say in vs.10 'one of these little ones', referring, not to the disciples but to the children set before Him.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Matthew 18:10 (NASB) "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

I'm still not convinced that His reference is to us as disciples for in vs.2 it says he called a child to Himself...
Matthew 18:2 (NASB) And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,...

...almost like a 'show and tell' and then goes on to say in vs.10 'one of these little ones', referring, not to the disciples but to the children set before Him.

Why did you ask me if you tell me I'm wrong?

 

[Serving Zion]

Thank you Crossnote for the opportunity to write about this, I am very passionate for the children because I really admire their willingness to obey and to do the right thing

How then do you explain...

Mark 10:14-16 (KJV) But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

There is so much to say about this verse! First of all, why were the disciples forbidding the children? Isn't it the same reason that parents are always apologising for the bother of their own children? For instance, day before yesterday I was walking into the mall and a mother with two girls 7 and 9 years stepped out of the car and they were just having a normal day, one had been to karate or something and as I was walking past them, the older girl who had not seen me was dawdling on the path while mum was locking the car and getting shopping bags. Well, she started to dawdle backwards toward me and I had to literally stop and take a step backward to avoid the collision because she didn't know I was there. She's just a girl you know, they dance and skip and just do whatever because they're happy and in the moment). Well the mother saw it and called out "(didn't remember the girl's name)! stop!" and she spun around and was very embarrassed and I wasn't upset or anything because I know it's just an accident and it's actually nice to see that she was so happy and free, anyway the mother deeply apologised for it! and as I went into the shop I turned back to get a trolley and I noticed the girl had taken it to heart - but it wasn't from me because I had not scolded her.

So why do they apologise for children in that way? Why can they not share in the joy that the children have? That's what Jesus was objecting to, saying "NO! Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them!" - because He also knew that the children were innocent and not meaning to be an inconvenience - and in His heart He didn't even feel as though they were an inconvenience! ... rather it made Him happy to welcome them and to bless them.

You can see there that the parents themselves feel as though the children are an inconvenience and they project those feelings upon us, and then they blame the children for being an inconvenience to us when in fact they aren't representing our feelings at all! The outcome from that is that the children feel outcast and belittled - because they aren't valued as they should be, but they are told that by virtue of their very nature of being happy and bubbly and full of life that it grates on the grown-ups, and that's not fair at all. What is the difference between the way Jesus received the children and the way the disciples were regarding them? It is love. Jesus had love for the children and did not deprive them of their desire to be with Him, but the disciples did not have the same love in them because they felt duty-bound to protect Him from their pestering.

That's why He says that the kingdom of heaven belongs to the ones such as them: it is because they know nothing about the mindset that suppresses the fruits of the spirit, and it is foreign to them. When they are bubbling with joy and wanting to talk to the Lord, you know that is what God wants us to all be like: free of worries and silly social barriers, free to be joyful in the Lord. How many people do you see in churches who have that in them? (no doubt you will have seen it plenty!). Now on the other hand, how many people do you see who are uptight, judgmental, stodgy, being the very ones who "husSSHHH!!!!" the children? That's what He is saying that we need to change, We need to become again as the little children, to be without fear and condemnation, and to express our joy in the Lord, not giving reverence to faces but receiving each other for who we are as people, regardless of whether we are of high social standing or low.

Matthew 18:10 (KJV) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

So I see that what I said also addresses the despising of the little ones, and there's this little part that you've highlighted about the angels who behold the father in heaven, and you asked for some explanation of that. Well, as you know that God looks down from heaven upon the sons of men, so therefore we do not reside in heaven as sons of men, but we need messengers to deliver the reports to and fro. I suppose you know the most rudimentary meaning of the word "angel" is "messenger" (one who carries the messages of God to man), therefore we see that heaven is God's throne and the Earth is His footstool - it is His messengers who carry His message to the sons of men and vice-versa. Now what happens if we happen to become sinful? God does not look upon us with favour because in His heart is the despising of us for the fact that we have chosen to do that which we ought not do, and have not only done that but have ignored His pleas to us (via His messengers), that we ought not become that sinner. Then, as Proverbs 19:3 tells us, the folly of the man perverts his way and his heart rages against the Lord. What happens when the angels assigned to carry our messages bring a report before the Lord? They can not lift up their eyes upon Him because they are ashamed of the report they bring. Therefore we see that the innocence of the children - not the fact that they are innocent of bad behaviour - but the fact that they can't be blamed because they simply don't know any better - that is what we call in legal terms "plea of ignorance". Well, if you ever watch how a little child behaves when you explain to them that what they have done is not fair, and you show them that they shouldn't be doing it - when they come to understand the other person's point of view, they are sorry and they instantly repent! There's no sin that holds them captive, and the angels are able to report to God "Lord, little .... has such love in her heart that she even shared her own cookie with her brother - nobody needed to ask her to do it!".

 

[crossnote]

Why did you ask me if you tell me I'm wrong?

I asked if you could explain those two verses in post #179. I never said you were wrong.

 

[crossnote]

Thank you Crossnote for the opportunity to write about this, I am very passionate for the children because I really admire their willingness to obey and to do the right thing

There is so much to say about this verse! First of all, why were the disciples forbidding the children? Isn't it the same reason that parents are always apologising for the bother of their own children? For instance, day before yesterday I was walking into the mall and a mother with two girls 7 and 9 years stepped out of the car and they were just having a normal day, one had been to karate or something and as I was walking past them, the older girl who had not seen me was dawdling on the path while mum was locking the car and getting shopping bags. Well, she started to dawdle backwards toward me and I had to literally stop and take a step backward to avoid the collision because she didn't know I was there. She's just a girl you know, they dance and skip and just do whatever because they're happy and in the moment). Well the mother saw it and called out "(didn't remember the girl's name)! stop!" and she spun around and was very embarrassed and I wasn't upset or anything because I know it's just an accident and it's actually nice to see that she was so happy and free, anyway the mother deeply apologised for it! and as I went into the shop I turned back to get a trolley and I noticed the girl had taken it to heart - but it wasn't from me because I had not scolded her.

So why do they apologise for children in that way? Why can they not share in the joy that the children have? That's what Jesus was objecting to, saying "NO! Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them!" - because He also knew that the children were innocent and not meaning to be an inconvenience - and in His heart He didn't even feel as though they were an inconvenience! ... rather it made Him happy to welcome them and to bless them.

You can see there that the parents themselves feel as though the children are an inconvenience and they project those feelings upon us, and then they blame the children for being an inconvenience to us when in fact they aren't representing our feelings at all! The outcome from that is that the children feel outcast and belittled - because they aren't valued as they should be, but they are told that by virtue of their very nature of being happy and bubbly and full of life that it grates on the grown-ups, and that's not fair at all. What is the difference between the way Jesus received the children and the way the disciples were regarding them? It is love. Jesus had love for the children and did not deprive them of their desire to be with Him, but the disciples did not have the same love in them because they felt duty-bound to protect Him from their pestering.

That's why He says that the kingdom of heaven belongs to the ones such as them: it is because they know nothing about the mindset that suppresses the fruits of the spirit, and it is foreign to them. When they are bubbling with joy and wanting to talk to the Lord, you know that is what God wants us to all be like: free of worries and silly social barriers, free to be joyful in the Lord. How many people do you see in churches who have that in them? (no doubt you will have seen it plenty!). Now on the other hand, how many people do you see who are uptight, judgmental, stodgy, being the very ones who "husSSHHH!!!!" the children? That's what He is saying that we need to change, We need to become again as the little children, to be without fear and condemnation, and to express our joy in the Lord, not giving reverence to faces but receiving each other for who we are as people, regardless of whether we are of high social standing or low.

So I see that what I said also addresses the despising of the little ones, and there's this little part that you've highlighted about the angels who behold the father in heaven, and you asked for some explanation of that. Well, as you know that God looks down from heaven upon the sons of men, so therefore we do not reside in heaven as sons of men, but we need messengers to deliver the reports to and fro. I suppose you know the most rudimentary meaning of the word "angel" is "messenger" (one who carries the messages of God to man), therefore we see that heaven is God's throne and the Earth is His footstool - it is His messengers who carry His message to the sons of men and vice-versa. Now what happens if we happen to become sinful? God does not look upon us with favour because in His heart is the despising of us for the fact that we have chosen to do that which we ought not do, and have not only done that but have ignored His pleas to us (via His messengers), that we ought not become that sinner. Then, as Proverbs 19:3 tells us, the folly of the man perverts his way and his heart rages against the Lord. What happens when the angels assigned to carry our messages bring a report before the Lord? They can not lift up their eyes upon Him because they are ashamed of the report they bring. Therefore we see that the innocence of the children - not the fact that they are innocent of bad behaviour - but the fact that they can't be blamed because they simply don't know any better - that is what we call in legal terms "plea of ignorance". Well, if you ever watch how a little child behaves when you explain to them that what they have done is not fair, and you show them that they shouldn't be doing it - when they come to understand the other person's point of view, they are sorry and they instantly repent! There's no sin that holds them captive, and the angels are able to report to God "Lord, little .... has such love in her heart that she even shared her own cookie with her brother - nobody needed to ask her to do it!".

Thank you for your thoughtful response.