Are Children born damned or saved?

[crossnote]

How could a child die from his own sin, if the child isn’t old enough to know good from evil?

From the sin inherited from Adam...

Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (I assume that includes infants.)

Romans 5:14 (KJV) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(The bold would explain why those die who do not know good from evil.) True it's not due to the fault of the child sinning, but the result is the same, he dies. That is why David could say, 'he will be with me one day' (paraphrase).

With the foregoing, I still can't say whether a small child is damned or saved. I would lean towards saved as Jesus said 'such is the Kingdom of God'.
This of course leads to another issue, at what point do they become accountable for their sin?

 

[crossnote]

I know that the bible teaches us that we are responsible only for our own sins...not the sins of our fathers.
Adam committed the sin of disobedience.
HE is responsible for his sin.
But this allowed him to lose his preternatural gifts and to gain the sin nature which he passed on to his children....
and they to their children...and so forth. The sin nature is passed on to every human being that ever lived, or will ever live.

So in the respect, we, individually, are not responsible for HIS sin of disobedience.

We do, however, through it, die both spiritually and physically even though we have not COMMITTED HIS SIN.
See Romans 5:12-14

And so we suffer from the effects of his sin...even nature is affected by his sin, also in
Romans 8:19-22
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

You can argue we are not responsible for Adam's sin, but the fact remains, we are just as culpable as if we ourselves had sinned.

 

[JLB]

With the foregoing, I still can't say whether a small child is damned or saved. I would lean towards saved as Jesus said 'such is the Kingdom of God'.

We inherit a physical body with sin.

However a child is not capable of understanding what is and what isn’t sin, until they mature and understand the difference between good and evil.

Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
Deuteronomy 1:39

This of course leads to another issue, at what point do they become accountable for their sin?

When they good from evil.

Only God is the Judge of this.







JLB

 

[crossnote]

We inherit a physical body with sin.

Sin is in more than our physical bodies, it is in our minds, our hearts, our whole being is infected.

However a child is not capable of understanding what is and what isn’t sin, until they mature and understand the difference between good and evil. Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
Deuteronomy 1:39

That's a different matter, it has to do with the disobedience of the older generation due to unbelief. Interesting verse though, here it is in the NASB and KJV...(what version did you use?)

Deuteronomy 1:39 (NASB) 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Deuteronomy 1:39 (KJV) Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

When they good from evil.

Only God is the Judge of this.

That's true but it gives little comfort to a Christian mother who just lost her 12 year year old in a car crash who never professed or denied Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

You can argue we are not responsible for Adam's sin, but the fact remains, we are just as culpable as if we ourselves had sinned.

Crossnote....

If you read Romans 5:12-14 you must surely see that it states that we did not sin as Adam did.
It's NOT as if we ourselves had sinned....
We die physically because of Adam's sin...but we are not responsible for it.
We are responsible for our own sins...because we inherit from Adam the sin nature---the flesh, whatever you wish to call it.

We are culpable for our own sins.

Ezekiel 18:20
20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Galatians 6:5
5For each will have to bear his own load...

2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


When we're born we don't even know what sin is.
A 2 year old does not sin against God.
God is just and merciful....
How could that child be lost if 2 Corinthians 5:10 is correct?
How does that child bear his own load, as Paul states?

 

[GodsGrace]

From the sin inherited from Adam...

Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (I assume that includes infants.)

Romans 5:12 states that by one man sin entered. Sin caused us to die (physically). This death was passed on to all men...because all men sinned.
But they didn't KNOW they were sinning......because the law was not yet given...

Romans 5:13
13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

Do children know about the laws of God?
Can their wrongdoing be counted a sin?

Romans 5:14 (KJV) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(The bold would explain why those die who do not know good from evil.) True it's not due to the fault of the child sinning, but the result is the same, he dies. That is why David could say, 'he will be with me one day' (paraphrase).

Agreed.
Even children die BECAUSE of Adam's sin (its effect)...
but not because of their own sins.

With the foregoing, I still can't say whether a small child is damned or saved. I would lean towards saved as Jesus said 'such is the Kingdom of God'.
This of course leads to another issue, at what point do they become accountable for their sin?

Agreed again.
What Jesus stated is simple to understand...."of such is the Kingdom of God"....

At what point does a child become accountable for sin?
There isn't a set age...it depends on the maturity and understanding of the child.
When the child understands what sin is and how he is breaking God's law,,,
and he still continues with his behavior,,,this is willful sinning.
In order for something to be a sin...we have to know it is a sin and we have to do it willingly.
From personal experience, I'd say that between the ages of 11/12 and maybe 13-15, a normal child will know when he is sinning.

 

[crossnote]

How could that child be lost if 2 Corinthians 5:10 is correct? How does that child bear his own load, as Paul states?

I hold that that Judgment Seat is the Bema seat of Christ where we will be rewarded or have lost rewards according to what we have done in Christ. I don't think those dying in infancy will be part of that judgment.

 

[crossnote]

At what point does a child become accountable for sin?
There isn't a set age...it depends on the maturity and understanding of the child.
When the child understands what sin is and how he is breaking God's law,,,
and he still continues with his behavior,,,this is willful sinning.
In order for something to be a sin...we have to know it is a sin and we have to do it willingly.
From personal experience, I'd say that between the ages of 11/12 and maybe 13-15, a normal child will know when he is sinning.

Perhaps that's why some groups perform infant baptism? "Just in case"
I wonder if any one knows

 

[Edward]

Well what kind of God do we think we are serving here? A harsh and technical God who denies entry into life to a baby who died of SIDS?! Or a loving and merciful God?! Isn't this question a no brainer? One of those Are you Smarter than a 5th Grader questions, Lol.

I heard somewhere before that the age of accountability is around 20. But I would think that it is probably with some Plus or minus depending upon specific circumstances as a provision for out of the ordinary situations. But God is a just and righteous God so everything will be fair...so yeah, the baby lives even if it wasn't (Gasp) baptized.

 

[crossnote]

Well what kind of God do we think we are serving here? A harsh and technical God who denies entry into life to a baby who died of SIDS?! Or a loving and merciful God?! Isn't this question a no brainer? One of those Are you Smarter than a 5th Grader questions, Lol.

I heard somewhere before that the age of accountability is around 20. But I would think that it is probably with some Plus or minus depending upon specific circumstances as a provision for out of the ordinary situations. But God is a just and righteous God so everything will be fair...so yeah, the baby lives even if it wasn't (Gasp) baptized.

Instead of an appeal to emotions and hearsay, could you please direct us to God's Word?

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps that's why some groups perform infant baptism? "Just in case"
I wonder if any one knows

Hi Crossnote,
Here's a short history of baptism.....

After Jesus died, married persons that were Christian and had children would have their children baptized.
But not for the forgiveness of sin....it was the custom to raise children in the Christian faith and most of the children would, indeed, become Christian.

They were baptized in order to be welcomed into the Christian community, which was very close at this time. People met in homes to learn about the word of God from letters that were circulating, they broke bread together - eating together - as Paul spoke of in Corinthians, and they wanted their children to be a part of this community and to receive blessings from God. John the Baptist said that after him would come one that would baptize with the Holy Spirit - even children were baptized to receive the Holy Spirit.

This was all well and good until Augustine (of Hippo) became a Christian (about 400AD) and began to ponder things - he was very intellectual.
He decided that all mankind was IMPUTED with the sin of Adam....this means that every human was born lost and with sin.
Since Revelation states that nothing unclean could enter into heaven, he decided that babies had to be baptized as soon as possible to remove this sin from their soul/spirit and put them back in good standing with God. This would be original sin --- the first sin ever committed by man. The same sin that was attributed to Adam, in his opinion, was passed on to every human.

I don't know about other denominations, but I know that the CC does baptize babies....but no longer accepts this reason.
They have returned to the original reason for baptizing children --- I do not know when these changes took place.
But, yes, the CC did accept his reasoning back then. No one before him taught about "original sin".

Augustine was very powerful in the church....why? I can only venture a guess.
His teaching on predestination and free will and original sin are no longer followed by the church of that time...the CC.

 

[crossnote]

Hi Crossnote,
Here's a short history of baptism.....

After Jesus died, married persons that were Christian and had children would have their children baptized.
But not for the forgiveness of sin....it was the custom to raise children in the Christian faith and most of the children would, indeed, become Christian.

They were baptized in order to be welcomed into the Christian community, which was very close at this time. People met in homes to learn about the word of God from letters that were circulating, they broke bread together - eating together - as Paul spoke of in Corinthians, and they wanted their children to be a part of this community and to receive blessings from God. John the Baptist said that after him would come one that would baptize with the Holy Spirit - even children were baptized to receive the Holy Spirit.

Do you have a source for this? It sort of sounds like the Reformed view. (Halfway between Luther and Zwingli).

This was all well and good until Augustine (of Hippo) became a Christian (about 400AD) and began to ponder things - he was very intellectual.
He decided that all mankind was IMPUTED with the sin of Adam....this means that every human was born lost and with sin.

Actually it means Adam's sin was charged to every human's account.

I don't know about other denominations, but I know that the CC does baptize babies....but no longer accepts this reason.
They have returned to the original reason for baptizing children --- I do not know when these changes took place.
But, yes, the CC did accept his reasoning back then. No one before him taught about "original sin".
Augustine was very powerful in the church....why? I can only venture a guess.
His teaching on predestination and free will and original sin are no longer followed by the church of that time...the CC.

What is CC? Christian Church?

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you have a source for this? It sort of sounds like the Reformed view. (Halfway between Luther and Zwingli).

Actually it means Adam's sin was charged to every human's account.



What is CC? Christian Church?

The source is my knowing some church history.
It must be o Google somewhere. Try looking up what Augustine taught re baptism.

Adam's sin was charged to every human's account. Right. That's imputation...
But the NT tells us this is not so. We are only responsible for our own sin. We are not charged with Adam's sin.

CC is the Catholic Church, from which Luther was banished. I know he died believing in either transubstantiation or the Real Presence, and he probably still believed in original sin...not sure.

 

[crossnote]

The source is my knowing some church history.
It must be o Google somewhere. Try looking up what Augustine taught re baptism.

Adam's sin was charged to every human's account. Right. That's imputation...
But the NT tells us this is not so. We are only responsible for our own sin. We are not charged with Adam's sin.

CC is the Catholic Church, from which Luther was banished. I know he died believing in either transubstantiation or the Real Presence, and he probably still believed in original sin...not sure.

You may hold that Adam’s sin is not charged to our account but end result is essentially the same.
Luther took the Word’s of Institution very literal. “This is my Body “ meant just that, not ‘becomes’ my body (transubstantion) or ‘spiritually’ is my true body (real presence). He just believed Jesus’ Word created the reality it spoke.

 

[Edward]

Instead of an appeal to emotions and hearsay, could you please direct us to God's Word?

You already know to go to God's word I see, but yes Brother I will certainly direct you to God's word and you should be reading it more because the very heart of God is within those pages.

As you become more familiar with God's heart your eyes (the eyes of your heart) will open a bit and you will be able to see that...God doesn't condemn babies Brother!

Do you have to have a scripture now? I think this is pretty basic stuff we're talking about here. Nevertheless, have a look at

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have [c]refused him. For[d] the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”.../

So if the Lord looks at the heart (which contains our motives), then what are babies guilty of? Tell me, what is in Babies hearts?

I rest my case, lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

You may hold that Adam’s sin is not charged to our account but end result is essentially the same.
Luther took the Word’s of Institution very literal. “This is my Body “ meant just that, not ‘becomes’ my body (transubstantion) or ‘spiritually’ is my true body (real presence). He just believed Jesus’ Word created the reality it spoke.

Yes, the end result is the same....
We suffer because Adam sinned...
we suffer the effects of his sin.

But don't you see that if we ARE charged with his sin,,,then we would be born a sinful person and would be lost.
My whole point, and I THINK you agree, is that babies are not born lost because they have no personal sins accounted to them
(until the age of reason).

This is am important point because if Augustine was right and Adam's sin WAS charged to us (imputed to us) then he was correct in
teaching that babies should be baptized as soon as possible in case they should die.

Imputation of Adam's sin to all of us has everything to do with babies being baptized.

A question as to Luther:
You say that Luther believed in a literal THIS IS MY BODY (which I agree with, of course - it's plain history)
BUT, you continue with NOT BECOMES MY BODY.

What is "THIS" that IS MY BODY??

In Catholicism it's the host that becomes the Body of Christ.
The host would the the THIS.

What did Luther believe was the THIS??
It had to be something....
(I know I'm not explaining myself well....)

 

[Edward]

Instead of an appeal to emotions and hearsay.../

Sorry if that affected you emotionally, but don't confuse that with appealing to the spirit. An emotional response would have to indicate a soulish carnal response and that always ends up in debate and division because the carnal mind can not receive the things of God.

So you have to look at this from your spirit instead. Thinking in your heart is what it is. Adn as scripture says, as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. So when you know something in your heart, you just know it, without wondering about it you perceive it. It is not a feeling but it is a perception nonetheless. and you can feel it (facetiously) in your heart. You ever have that happen to you?

and sometimes when a person knows another person fairly well and a question is asked you just know how your friend would answer it...that's where I'm at Brother, and I know in my heart that our Lord is Not the type of Lord who would kill a baby over a technicality that some carnally minded guy came up with? It a question with a distinct absurdity to it (no offense) and I'd bet anyone 0ne Heavenly Dollar (or equivalent, payable on the other side) that I'm right. No, that does not sound like my God and who needs a scripture for that?!

The Law was made for man not man for the Law. To teach the babies with so they can learn. Not to kill the babies with!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

NO!
Ever have a child that didn't say that?
We are all born "bad to the bone".

 

[crossnote]

NO!
Ever have a child that didn't say that?
We are all born "bad to the bone".

How then do you explain...

Mark 10:14-16 (KJV) But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

Matthew 18:10 (KJV) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

EXTRA CREDIT: explain the last verse

 

[Serving Zion]

NO!
Ever have a child that didn't say that?
We are all born "bad to the bone".

I would need to know what the child was protesting against, otherwise how would I know that the parent wasn't the bad one?