Are Children born damned or saved?

[JLB]

I assume that is what is meant of Mary, mother of Jesus in Luke 1:35. I think it is probably rare to find a mother who remains without sin, but it is not so rare to see mothers that are not in sin from time to time.

Nothing to do with Mary.

I think we can all agree there are no mothers who are sinless.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Being brought-forth is different from being conceived. They are different words in the original Hebrew, and they are different words in the English language. I see that you are conflating the two. It is leading you to misunderstand what is really being said by each individual expression because you are thinking that they are both describing the same thing when they are not.

David is saying that his whole making was a disadvantage to him, because

a) His mother was in sin when she conceived him
and
b) He was brought-forth in iniquity

Therefore he pleads to God for mercy on account of the fact that he did not choose to be made the sinner he had become: "wash me of my iniquity and cleanse me of my sin (v2) because it doesn't belong to me (v5)".

You would probably listen to a Satanist then, eh? Or an antichrist? It doesn't matter if they are alienated from God as long as they have something that you can take from them and use in your arguments?

That's what I am saying that they didn't. They have written rumours without evidence, in a spirit of blindness, because they themselves (having been alienated from God) could not see what the scriptures were saying. It is just as Jesus said to Nicodemus "you are a teacher of the law and you don't understand these things?". That's who it is that wrote the Talmud. You can never be greater than your teacher you know.

1. What's the difference between being brought forward and being conceived?
In Psalm 51:5 it means the same.

2. I'll listen to anyone that has something good to say. Not all persons that are alienated from God have evil ways and speak evil every time they open their mouth.

3. A person could understand what Psalm 51:5 is stating even if they are not friends with God.

4. Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about Spiritual matters.....
The unsaved do not understand spiritual matters,,,,
but not all of the bible is spiritual in nature. Some of it is historical.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing to do with Mary.

I think we can all agree there are no mothers who are sinless.





JLB

Yes.
I think this has been discussed to the death and is not that important.

I've said all along that there are a few ways to understand Psalm 51:5

1. David's mother was committing adultery when she conceived him.
2. David's mother was with his father at conception but she was sinning in her life in some way.
3. David was conceived in sin,,,meaning the sin nature, which was passed on to him.
4. The act of conception was believed to be sinful at that time.
5. Someone in his family tree had committed sin and the price was still being paid.

 

[JLB]

David was conceived in sin,,,meaning the sin nature, which was passed on to him.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL
OK
I could live with that!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

LOL
OK
I could live with that!

Where are we???
I just got here.
Tell me what I missed!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Where are we???
I just got here.
Tell me what I missed!!!

You missed nothing you don't know.
I think....

 

[crossnote]

Could you state what YOU believe and also why?

I wonder that too...

Psalm 51:5 (NASB) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Matthew 19:14 (KJV) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14 (KJV) But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:16 (KJV) But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[JLB]

Where are we???
I just got here.
Tell me what I missed!!!

You missed it.

 

[JLB]

I wonder that too...

Psalm 51:5 (NASB) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Matthew 19:14 (KJV) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14 (KJV) But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:16 (KJV) But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

One possible answer —



https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/280331/jewish/Nitzevet-Mother-of-David.htm

 

[crossnote]

One possible answer —



https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/280331/jewish/Nitzevet-Mother-of-David.htm

I thought they would point to David’s son through Bathsheeba, when he died, David said one day he would be with him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought they would point to David’s son through Bathsheeba, when he died, David said one day he would be with him.

We had a thread on here regarding the question of the salvation of babies.

You bring up Psalm 51:5, which many did and was of major concern.

It does not state that David was born with the sin nature,, (although he was) but that some kind of sin was present when he was conceived.

What do you think?
I haven't read JLB 's link.

I believe babies are safe until the age of reason.

 

[crossnote]

What do you think?

Well there is this…

Romans 5:12 KJV
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

but then there is also this…

Matthew 19:14 KJV
[14] But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


But I suppose with a bit of human logic, Rom 5:2 can be explained otherwise. But the fact is babies still die even if it’s argued it’s not due to a sin nature.
So? :biggrindunno

 

[GodsGrace]

Well there is this…

Romans 5:12 KJV
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

but then there is also this…

Matthew 19:14 KJV
[14] But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


But I suppose with a bit of human logic, Rom 5:2 can be explained otherwise. But the fact is babies still die even if it’s argued it’s not due to a sin nature.
So? :biggrindunno

We also went through Romans 5:12-14 extensively.

This got into the question of the sin of Adam.
Was it imputed to every one of us, , , or do we just suffer from its effects.

I'm for the second.

 

[JLB]

I thought they would point to David’s son through Bathsheeba, when he died, David said one day he would be with him.

The psalm was a cry for mercy by David for his sin concerning Bathsheba and the incident with Uriah the Hittite.


He says he himself was conceived in iniquity, which would be something carried down from father to son.


What exactly the iniquity was, we don’t know.


We do know David has a problem concerning women and adultery.

We know Solomon had his issues with women.




JLB

 

[crossnote]

I'm for the second.

Reason?

 

[crossnote]

The psalm was a cry for mercy by David for his sin concerning Bathsheba and the incident with Uriah the Hittite.


He says he himself was conceived in iniquity, which would be something carried down from father to son.


What exactly the iniquity was, we don’t know.


We do know David has a problem concerning women and adultery.

We know Solomon had his issues with women.




JLB

So concerning David's child who died, he died due to David's sin and not due to his own inherent sin nature? If so, I would agree, but I still wonder about the many infants who die with no apparent sinful connection from their parents.

 

[GodsGrace]

Reason?

I know that the bible teaches us that we are responsible only for our own sins...not the sins of our fathers.
Adam committed the sin of disobedience.
HE is responsible for his sin.
But this allowed him to lose his preternatural gifts and to gain the sin nature which he passed on to his children....
and they to their children...and so forth. The sin nature is passed on to every human being that ever lived, or will ever live.

So in the respect, we, individually, are not responsible for HIS sin of disobedience.

We do, however, through it, die both spiritually and physically even though we have not COMMITTED HIS SIN.
See Romans 5:12-14

And so we suffer from the effects of his sin...even nature is affected by his sin, also in
Romans 8:19-22
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

 

[GodsGrace]

So concerning David's child who died, he died due to David's sin and not due to his own inherent sin nature? If so, I would agree, but I still wonder about the many infants who die with no apparent sinful connection from their parents.

I believe both you and the other member are not interpreting Psalm 51:5 correctly.
A lot depends on which version is used and how it is translated.

Why would David be so forelorn about being born a sinner?
We are ALL born sinners....
I believe he is saying that when he was conceived, he was conceived IN SIN....
but we cannot be sure what sin - although the bible has clues.

 

[JLB]

So concerning David's child who died, he died due to David's sin and not due to his own inherent sin nature?

What does the scripture say about this?


How could a child die from his own sin, if the child isn’t old enough to know good from evil?