Are Christians to keep the Sabbath?

[John 8:32]

John.... It's been a long day and I have so much I should be doing... I might not get to all your points and such and forgive me if I don't. But, as I'm sitting here having a glass of iced tea and looking over this thread I'll try to address some things...

This is part of the problem... that there is a "proper day". Paul's custom was to preach in the synagogues on the Sabbath to be sure...

...but let's not forget that it was this same Paul who said,"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Colossians 2:16-17

and...

"One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God." Romans 14:5-6

Obviously, Paul does not push the idea that there is a "proper day" to worship. There was for the Jews... and since Paul was a Jew and also trying to reach the Jews with the gospel, I can understand his custom of going to the synagogues and preaching the gospel and showing from the Scriptures how Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.

However, for the Gentile converts who had no such custom, there is nothing at all to indicate that Paul or anyone else taught that they had to keep the Sabbath. It was certainly not part of the letter written to the Gentiles for the expressed purpose of telling them what parts of the Law of Moses that the Gentiles had to keep.

Let's read the letter in it's entirety:

“ The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.


“Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.



“Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.



“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.†Acts 15:23-29


I'm sorry guys... this question was already settled 2000 years ago and it was written down in the Scriptures precisely so that there would be no confusion about it. The Pharisees back then kicked up a fuss (as some Pharisees seem to be doing today as well....) wanting the Gentiles to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses.... but the council then made it perfectly clear:


Abstain from things sacrificed to idols.
Abstain from blood and from things strangled.
Abstain from fornication.


That's it. No "...oh yes, be sure to keep the Sabbath."

It's also important to keep in mind that the Sabbath Laws had nothing to do with worshiping God. It had to do with not doing any work. That's what "keeping the Sabbath" was... not taking part in work and resting on that day. The Jews custom was to worship God on the Sabbath day... but nowhere in Scripture is there ever a commandment to hold worship services on the Sabbath day. That is simply a Jewish tradition... just as holding worship services on Sunday is a Christian one.

I am glad you brought up Romans 14 Handy, a thread like this brings up so many points that some just don't get addressed in a timely fashion. Anyhoo, Rom 14 from my perspective...

Typically verse 6 is quoted and usually only the first half. Regarding the day and not regarding the day.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Now I know that you are aware that these "books" of the NT were originally letters. There were no chapters and verses, they were added somewhere in the 1100's AD. So Rom 14 needs to be investigated with context.

What is the context and subject matter of Rom 14?

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Verses 1 and 4 give the overall subject matter, judging someone else for their practices. But what practices were being judged?

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

This shows that vegetarianism was being discussed in verse 2 but what is verse three saying? We have to read on...

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The second subject here in verse 6 is fasting. Paul referred to vegetarianism in the earlier verses and here discusses eating or not eating at all. The whole subject of Rom 14 is what you put in your mouth and how it affects others around you.

Paul sums up the whole of the thought here...

Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

The subject matter is not what day you observe, but rather offending a brother by what you eat, don't eat, or when you eat or don't eat. Remember that this is a letter, there was no 'end of chapter' in the original.

Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Rom 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.

 

[John 8:32]

Kinda hafta do this piecemeal, I have exceeded the character limit several times. Anyhoo, Acts 15. We have to look at it in context also.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Here is the subject as shown in the next verse...

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

So the subject matter here is does one have to be circumcised to receive salvation. Certain of the Pharisees, who had been converted, still were under the impression that one must be circumcised to be saved...

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The law of Moses and the Ten Commandments are not one in the same. That is another subject that will take at least a separate post, if not a separate thread.

Anyhoo, notice that they taught that one had to keep all of the law of Moses to be saved. This was a very contentious matter, almost all of the leading apostles, save perhaps Luke?, were Jews, so this was very radical to them...

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What was the yoke they were unable to bear? Living in a society where murder, lying, theft, lust, dishonoring parents, having strange gods, worshiping statues, blasphemy and breaking the Sabbath are prohibited? No, living under the yoke of the Pharisaical teachings which were not inspired of God and Christ condemned...

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

This is a good time to read the entire 23rd chapter of Matthew.

Now back to Acts 15...

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Which law? The law against murder? That is a subversion of the gospel and troubles men's souls? Or are we dealing with circumcision, ceremonial washings, etc.?

Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

Now think on this for a moment, if this is all that is required, there is no prohibition against worshipping Baal, Ishtar, or whatever. One may curse and use God's name in any foul and filthy way. One may worship statues, icons, possessions etc. One may defile holy time, dishonor one's parents, commit murder, commit adultery (as long as they do it after marriage, prior to being married is fornication), lie, steal and lust and it is not considered sin. But you better not eat blood. Now do you really believe that this settles it?

 

[rrowell]

So murder,

Sixth Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:13 (KJV)
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not kill.
Matthew 5:21-22 (KJV)
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [/FONT]

adultery,

Seventh Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:14 (KJV)
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Matthew 5:27-28 (KJV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

[/FONT]

theft,

Eighth Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:15 (KJV)
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not steal.
Ephesians 4:28 (KJV)
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [/FONT]

lying,

Ninth Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:16 (KJV)
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Colossians 3:9 (KJV)
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [/FONT]

using the name of God in vain,

Third Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:7 (KJV)
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
James 2:7 (KJV)
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? [/FONT]

etc. are just fine?

Glad we are not neighbors, I surely don't need someone with your standards living next to me.

If you were my neighbor I would ask you to go to bible study with me :yes

 

[JLB]

Now this is an interesting statement.

I'm wondering what others think of this.

I have never heard of the Old Covenant being anything other than the Mosaic Covenant or the Law of which the 10 Commandment certainly are a part of.

This is different than the covenant with Abraham and the covenant with Noah.

John, could you elaborate what you mean here and I'd be interested in others thoughts as well.

I'd be interested in others thoughts as well.

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."

This is the covenant we are "grafted" into in Christ!

Make no mistake, This is the Lord Jesus here who is making covenant with Abraham!

Paradise was named after Abraham because He is the founding member of this covenant!

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nationsshall be blessed." Galatians 3:7-8

and again -

that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

and again -

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

The Law of Moses was "added" [without changing] to the Covenant of Abraham [temporarily] until the Seed should come...


By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was a part of something greater.

By saying until, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was temporary.


When The Lord made covenant with Abraham He had to become flesh to fulfill His part of shedding blood.

Abraham was faithful to keep the Lord's commandments and laws because he obeyed His voice, which said walk before Me and be blameless.

Abraham was the first member of The Church, the assembly as it was called, of called out ones.

He was the founding member of a Holy Nation called out of darkness into His marvelous light, because he was in covenant with Christ!


JLB

 

[rrowell]

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."

This is the covenant we are "grafted" into in Christ!

Make no mistake, This is the Lord Jesus here who is making covenant with Abraham!

Paradise was named after Abraham because He is the founding member of this covenant!

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nationsshall be blessed." Galatians 3:7-8

and again -

that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

and again -

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

The Law of Moses was "added" [without changing] to the Covenant of Abraham [temporarily] until the Seed should come...


By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was a part of something greater.

By saying until, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was temporary.


When The Lord made covenant with Abraham He had to become flesh to fulfill His part of shedding blood.

Abraham was faithful to keep the Lord's commandments and laws because he obeyed His voice, which said walk before Me and be blameless.

Abraham was the first member of The Church, the assembly as it was called, of called out ones.

He was the founding member of a Holy Nation called out of darkness into His marvelous light, because he was in covenant with Christ!


JLB

Well put JLB,

Which is why He said:
Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[John 8:32]

In a previous post, 1Cor 16:2 was brought up as being an example of collections taken up in church services on Sunday. Is that what is really going on here? Let’s have a look…

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Yep they were supposed to gather something on the first day of the week and each one lay by himself in store. Hmmm, lay by him in store? That has to do with preserving something and keeping it to yourself. I thought you were supposed to toss it onto the plate as it was passed around. Well, this is not a collection in a church service as we shall see…

In actuality, this collection is in response to this…

Act 11:27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
Act 11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Claudius Caesar’s reign was from 41AD to 54AD and the collection for the saints lasted about ten years. It was begun before what is commonly called Paul’s first missionary journey and continued through the third.

Speaking of Queen Helena of Adiabene, a Jewish proselyte, who brought grain from Egypt and figs from Cyprus for the relief for the hard-pressed Judeans:

“Now her coming was of very great advantage to the people of Jerusalem, for whereas a famine did oppress them at that time, and many people died for want of what was necessary to procure food withal, Queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of corn, and others of them to Cyprus to bring a cargo of dried figs.” (Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews 20:2:5).

“This was the year in which a very serious famine occurred in Syria, which is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles as having been foretold by the prophet Agabus.” (Bede 1.3).

Notice that the church in Antioch had already sent relief…

Act 11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

So Paul was taking the dried fruit and vegetables and perhaps meats, it doesn’t really say, it just says things they had layed in store to be given to Paul when he came…

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
1Co 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

Notice that here Paul was going to send the foodstuffs to Judea by those selected by the church in Corinth and he thought he might or might not go, depending on circumstances…

1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
1Co 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

By the time he had written the second letter to Corinth, he had decided to go himself…

2Co 1:16 And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea.
2Co 1:17 When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay?

Verse 17 shows that he was accused of “not being able to make up his mind”, which we know is not so. Rather, he was determined to do what the Holy Spirit led him to do according to circumstances.

In 2Cor 8 Paul challenges the Corinthians with a little friendly competition…

2Co 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2Co 8:2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
2Co 8:3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
2Co 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2Co 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

The saints in Judea

2Co 9:2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
2Co 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
2Co 9:4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.

Paul had boasted of the Corinthians liberality and generosity to Macedonia, but now wants to make sure that they followed through as he said they would.

2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

The want of which saints? The ones in Judea.

2Co 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

Looking at 1Cor 16:2 in historical context and reading Paul’s writings on the matter, it becomes clear that he is not describing a “passing of the plate” here, he is describing a collection of foodstuffs and relief for the poor starving brethren in Judea.

Now, here is a question, why did Paul tell them to do the heavy lifting of gathering and preserving the foodstuffs on the first day of the week. Why do the work on the first day instead of the seventh day? Because they did not work on the seventh day. This scripture, when understood in historical perspective, actually supports Sabbath observance.

I would encourage folks to do some investigation of this event, there is much more supportive evidence.

 

[John 8:32]

Sixth Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:13 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not kill. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 5:21-22 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [/FONT]
Seventh Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:14 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not commit adultery. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 5:27-28 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. [/FONT]

Eighth Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:15 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not steal. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:28 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [/FONT]
Ninth Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:16 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Colossians 3:9 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [/FONT]
Third Commandment:
[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:7 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 2:7 (KJV) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? [/FONT]
If you were my neighbor I would ask you to go to bible study with me :yes

And if you were my neighbor, I would ask the same...

Fourth Commandment...

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

What rest, the rest described in verse 4

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

The Greek word for rest in this verse is sabbatismos and it is the only place in this chapter that word is used.

The Greek word used here for "rest" is sabbatismos which means "Sabbath rest, Sabbath observance" (Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament).

 

[rrowell]

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

What rest, the rest described in verse 4


Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

The Greek word for rest in this verse is sabbatismos and it is the only place in this chapter that word is used.

Yes, but look at verse 10:
Hebrews 4:10 (KJV)
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

katapausis kat-ap'-ow-sis from 2664; reposing down, i.e. (by Hebraism) abode:--rest. see GREEK for 2664

Christ is our "rest".

 

[John 8:32]

Yes, but look at verse 10:
Hebrews 4:10 (KJV)
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

katapausis kat-ap'-ow-sis from 2664; reposing down, i.e. (by Hebraism) abode:--rest. see GREEK for 2664

Christ is our "rest".

So this tells me not to keep the Sabbath as I was instructed to do in verse 9? No, it is showing that the Sabbath, which we keep weekly, is the type of the coming Sabbath rest of 1000 years from Satan's world. The 1000 year reign of Christ bringing rest form sin and it's effects on people.

This verse uses a different word, showing that it is speaking of a different rest than that of verse 9. Type and anti-type. Nowhere does this change the day...

 

[John 8:32]

“Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
“Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.†Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power...People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.†St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.†Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.
“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.†Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

“Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day - Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!â€
“Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons.†James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Md. (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

“Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.†John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.

“The Catholic church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...The Protestant World at its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the (Catholic) Church’s right to change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant World.†James Cardinal Gibbons in the Catholic Mirror, September 23, 1983.

“They [the Protestants] deem it their duty to keep the Sunday holy. Why? Because the Catholic Church tells them to do so. They have no other reason...The observance of Sunday thus comes to be an ecclesiastical law entirely distinct from the divine law of Sabbath observance...The author of the Sunday law...is the Catholic Church.†Ecclesiastical Review, February 1914.

“The Sunday...is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.â€American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.
“Sunday...is the law of the Catholic Church alone...†American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893.

“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles...From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.†Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.†Priest Brady, in an address reported in The News, Elizabeth, New Jersey, March 18, 1903.


Just so we are clear on the subject and who's authority you are bowing to.

 

[rrowell]

“Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
“Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.†Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power...People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.†St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.†Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.
“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.†Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

“Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day - Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!â€
“Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons.†James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Md. (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

“Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.†John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.

“The Catholic church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...The Protestant World at its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the (Catholic) Church’s right to change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant World.†James Cardinal Gibbons in the Catholic Mirror, September 23, 1983.

“They [the Protestants] deem it their duty to keep the Sunday holy. Why? Because the Catholic Church tells them to do so. They have no other reason...The observance of Sunday thus comes to be an ecclesiastical law entirely distinct from the divine law of Sabbath observance...The author of the Sunday law...is the Catholic Church.†Ecclesiastical Review, February 1914.

“The Sunday...is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.â€American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.
“Sunday...is the law of the Catholic Church alone...†American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893.

“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles...From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.†Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.†Priest Brady, in an address reported in The News, Elizabeth, New Jersey, March 18, 1903.


Just so we are clear on the subject and who's authority you are bowing to.

This is all bunk...

Consider the fact that the following was written (most probable 64AD) unarguably before 70AD:

Acts 20:7 (KJV)
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

And the "Catholic" Church did not even exist yet so how could they have changed it?...

You will go to no lengths to push your scriptural man made doctrine full of traditions of men (the Bible warns us about that)

 

[handy]

From John 8:32's post:

“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...

Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship is on Saturday (the Sabbath) either.

The laws concerning the Sabbath had nothing to do with worship. They had to do with ceasing from one's work for that day and resting.

 

[Stormcrow]

So murder, adultery, theft, lying, using the name of God in vain, etc. are just fine?

Glad we are not neighbors, I surely don't need someone with your standards living next to me.

Do you need the Law to tell you those things are wrong?

If not, then why do you presume to tell others they need it? 2

 

[John 8:32]

Do you need the Law to tell you those things are wrong?

If not, then why do you presume to tell others they need it? 2

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Without law, there is no sin.
Without sin, one does not need a saviour.

Just repeating what I read.

 

[John 8:32]

From John 8:32's post:



Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship is on Saturday (the Sabbath) either.

The laws concerning the Sabbath had nothing to do with worship. They had to do with ceasing from one's work for that day and resting.

Au contraire my friend...

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

 

[John 8:32]

This is all bunk...

Consider the fact that the following was written (most probable 64AD) unarguably before 70AD:

Acts 20:7 (KJV)
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

And the "Catholic" Church did not even exist yet so how could they have changed it?...

You will go to no lengths to push your scriptural man made doctrine full of traditions of men (the Bible warns us about that)

Hmmm, so if you don't agree with it, it is bunk?

 

[Stormcrow]

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Without law, there is no sin.
Without sin, one does not need a saviour.

Just repeating what I read.

Try understanding what you read in light of Paul's other words from that very same letter and that of Galatians.

 

[rrowell]

Hmmm, so if you don't agree with it, it is bunk?

I don't understand why you use a screen name "John 8:32" but say the new testament in which it lay is not truth? the old testament and the new are written by the hand of the Holy Spirit, there is no contradiction between them?

The old testament taught rest on the 7th day, promoted worship everyday from 7th to 7th...
The new testament teaches worship every day puts rest in Christ and the new testament Church has only been recorded to do assembled "worship service" on the 1st day of the week (Sunday).

You have shown nothing to the contrary...

 

[handy]

Au contraire my friend...

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

This is the thing I'm trying to get at... that the Sabbath wasn't the only day of worship. The holy convocations took place on different days and during different times throughout the year.

Holy convocations are not limited to Saturday.


(.....OK.... I went back and reread what I wrote and I admit I didn't word that very well at all, mea culpa on that.... The sabbath day was a day of worship... but ....)

It wasn't the ONLY day to worship at all.

There are holy convocations called on the Sabbath day, yes... but also on the first day, on the 10th day, on the 8th day, on the 15th day etc. etc....

The point to this is that these worship days are exactly the days that Paul meant when he said that these things are the shadow of things to come, but the reality is Christ. Reading through Leviticus 23, we see that these festivals and Sabbaths and holy convocations and the sacrifices and offerings that were a part of them all pointed to Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. The reason why it is no longer imperative to keep them... all of them is because their purpose was fulfilled when Christ finished His work on the cross.

There are a lot of days of rest, holy convocations and Sabbaths mentioned in Leviticus 23. There really is no reason to take the Sabbath day... say that we need to keep that one but it's OK to ignore the rest. Either the purpose of all these days have been fulfilled or none of them have.

Try understanding what you read in light of Paul's other words from that very same letter and that of Galatians.

I have to agree with this, John. You quote Romans and Hebrews a lot, but you don't seem to have an understanding of what these books are teaching us. You seem to come to the opposite conclusion of what the point of the books are insofar as how they break down for us the relationship the Gentile Christian and the Jewish Christian no have with the Law.

 

[John 8:32]

This is the thing I'm trying to get at... that the Sabbath wasn't the only day of worship. The holy convocations took place on different days and during different times throughout the year.

Holy convocations are not limited to Saturday.


(.....OK.... I went back and reread what I wrote and I admit I didn't word that very well at all, mea culpa on that.... The sabbath day was a day of worship... but ....)

It wasn't the ONLY day to worship at all.

There are holy convocations called on the Sabbath day, yes... but also on the first day, on the 10th day, on the 8th day, on the 15th day etc. etc....

The point to this is that these worship days are exactly the days that Paul meant when he said that these things are the shadow of things to come, but the reality is Christ. Reading through Leviticus 23, we see that these festivals and Sabbaths and holy convocations and the sacrifices and offerings that were a part of them all pointed to Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. The reason why it is no longer imperative to keep them... all of them is because their purpose was fulfilled when Christ finished His work on the cross.

There are a lot of days of rest, holy convocations and Sabbaths mentioned in Leviticus 23. There really is no reason to take the Sabbath day... say that we need to keep that one but it's OK to ignore the rest. Either the purpose of all these days have been fulfilled or none of them have.



I have to agree with this, John. You quote Romans and Hebrews a lot, but you don't seem to have an understanding of what these books are teaching us. You seem to come to the opposite conclusion of what the point of the books are insofar as how they break down for us the relationship the Gentile Christian and the Jewish Christian no have with the Law.

So are we under no obligation to keep the Ten Commandments?