Are Christians to keep the Sabbath?

[John 8:32]

I still have not had a good explanation of...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Or does Paul's teachings override those of Jesus Christ?

 

[mcgyver]

This is always an interesting debate...and I'd merely ask the following questions as a matter of provoking thought:

1. To whom was the Sabbath given? What was its purpose?

2. Was the Sabbath ever binding upon the Gentile Nations?

3. As part of the whole Mitzvah, are we to obey this one command and ignore the other 612 laws?

And finally, the one that really throws gasoline on the fire

Are we as Christians still under any part of the Old Testament covenant of The Law?

 

[John 8:32]

This is always an interesting debate...and I'd merely ask the following questions as a matter of provoking thought:

1. To whom was the Sabbath given? What was its purpose?

2. Was the Sabbath ever binding upon the Gentile Nations?

3. As part of the whole Mitzvah, are we to obey this one command and ignore the other 612 laws?

And finally, the one that really throws gasoline on the fire

Are we as Christians still under any part of the Old Testament covenant of The Law?

I would ask of you what is the New Covenant?

 

[mcgyver]

And (respectfully) I would ask your opinion/understanding as to the questions that I posted earlier.

They should be quite easy to answer as they are quite specific in nature.

 

[John 8:32]

And (respectfully) I would ask your opinion/understanding as to the questions that I posted earlier.

They should be quite easy to answer as they are quite specific in nature.

Last first...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

A New Covenant

Laws:

G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

And remember this is simply quoting Jeremiah 31

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

It appears to me that this is in perfect harmony with what our Lord and Saviour said...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

 

[mcgyver]

Sorry...but you really didn't answer the questions...

The only thing that you've pointed out is that this is something (covenant) between the House of Judah and the House of Israel...The Jews.

So the questions that I asked still stand unanswered.

 

[Hawkins]

This is always an interesting debate...and I'd merely ask the following questions as a matter of provoking thought:

1. To whom was the Sabbath given? What was its purpose?

To all mankind. Such that planet earth is under His sovereignty as humans majority are adapting a 6 working days (at most) and 1 day rest (at least).

2. Was the Sabbath ever binding upon the Gentile Nations?

Take a look at your calendar, you shall see that Sunday is a holidy, whether you consider yourself a gentile or not.

3. As part of the whole Mitzvah, are we to obey this one command and ignore the other 612 laws?

No, they can't be ignored as they are still used till today to measure those Jews who claim to be under the Mosaic Law. They claim to abide by the Mosaic Law and thus will be judged so on the Judgment Day. So till the Judgment Day comes they are still there.

And finally, the one that really throws gasoline on the fire

Are we as Christians still under any part of the Old Testament covenant of The Law?

[/quote]

As Christians we follow Christ's teaching and His commands. He did mentioned that we should obey the commandments, didn't He?

 

[mcgyver]

Thanks!

I want to let some others chip in before I address all this.

 

[John 8:32]

Sorry...but you really didn't answer the questions...

The only thing that you've pointed out is that this is something (covenant) between the House of Judah and the House of Israel...The Jews.

So the questions that I asked still stand unanswered.

As I said, last question first...

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

for sake of brevity I won't repost the rest of the passage showing that the New Covenant is the Law written in our hearts, so says Paul here in the 8th chapter of Hebrews.

 

[John 8:32]

This is always an interesting debate...and I'd merely ask the following questions as a matter of provoking thought:

1. To whom was the Sabbath given? What was its purpose?

2. Was the Sabbath ever binding upon the Gentile Nations?

3. As part of the whole Mitzvah, are we to obey this one command and ignore the other 612 laws?

And finally, the one that really throws gasoline on the fire

Are we as Christians still under any part of the Old Testament covenant of The Law?

If we want to be specific, then to whom is salvation?

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

And who is to be a Jew?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So, again, writing the law in our hearts is the New Covenant circumcision.

 

[mcgyver]

No, I have a passing familiarity with the book of Hebrews (J/K)

But let me just get this straight in my own mind...so I don't misinterpret your position:

Is it your position that a Christian is obligated to keep the OT (i.e. Saturday) Sabbath?

 

[JLB]

So are we under no obligation to keep the Ten Commandments?

You under obligation to keep the laws of God's kingdom.

You are under obligation to do what God tells you every day.

Here is a good place to start; Do what Jesus told His disciples -

after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

...for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."


Get baptized in the Holy Spirit, and a whole new world will open up to you.


Start being led by the Spirit, I promise He will have you doing some extraordinary things!


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

handy has a point. why not the holy convocations and well what day was the law taught in ancient isreal? its not said. only some testimonials on the entering of the promised land, or deliverence.

interesting side bar.

 

[tim-from-pa]

That is the most ridiculous post I have heard yet?

Show me the scriptural support for keeping the sabbath in the New Testament, you cannot...

I'll do so when you can show me where the Sabbath was changed to Sunday.

 

[JLB]

Last first...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

A New Covenant

Laws:

G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

And remember this is simply quoting Jeremiah 31

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

It appears to me that this is in perfect harmony with what our Lord and Saviour said...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

Amen so now with have God's kingdom Laws, that abide in the new divine nature we have, so we don't need the written for; No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

John referring to this passage says it this way -

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

So the emphasis is not on the outward fleshly commands that are of no effect against the sinful desires of the carnal nature but rather on The Holy Spirit and being filled with the Spirit and to walk in the Spirit which is always what God intended - For He said to Abraham -

Walk before Me and be Blameless!

That is the emphasis of the new covenant, For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

I'll do so when you can show me where the Sabbath was changed to Sunday.

the shabat was never change to sunday. but its not required to be kept. if it is then i must be lost. i may do one soon. i will read up on it and post what i find and do it if i can.plenty o messianic sites and orthodox to compare. they often say the same. the messianics will say the messiah has come. the orthodox will say we await the messiah with the same verse.

 

[handy]

So are we under no obligation to keep the Ten Commandments?

Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was and He didn't say... Why the Ten Commandments, of course!!!! Nor did He quote any one of the 10.


He referred not to the 10 but to Deuteronomy 6:5: And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment."

Then He added: "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' (Leviticus 19:18) "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

When we get into these long drawn out discussions about what we must do... when we try to niggle out what our neighbor is supposed to be doing on any given day of the week... we are failing in what Jesus taught was the most important thing: The commandment of love.

We don't have to second guess how we are to apply this... Jesus and the Holy Spirit ensured this message remained loud and clear in the Scriptures for all who would listen.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.†John 13:34-35

You want to fulfill the Law? You can't be keeping to all the statutes and ordinances and letters... not only that you can't, we've been specifically warned not to try.

You want to fulfill the Law?

Then do as Christ said, love God and love one another. Not only did Christ say this, but to remove all doubt as to how we should apply Christ's words here, the apostles clarified it for us:

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Galatians 5:13-14

Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “ You shall love your neighbor as yourself,†you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “ Do not commit adultery,†also said, “ Do not commit murder.†Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2


You can go to church on Saturday if you like and do no work for the rest of the day. If you do so, you still haven't obeyed the ordinances of holy convocations and unless you do it all, you're guilty of the whole lot.


We cannot keep the Old Covenant commandments.

We cannot keep the Old Covenant commandments.

We can't.

We've been told we can't. It's been proven we can't. We already know that even if we try, we're not going to succeed and we've even been warned to not even go there.

But, Christ could and He did. He kept them and then He died, thus rendering the Old Covenant void.

Now, if we want to fulfill (not keep but fulfill, there's a difference) then we need to do exactly what Jesus and the apostles said to do....

Love one another.

 

[tim-from-pa]

the shabat was never change to sunday. but its not required to be kept. if it is then i must be lost. i may do one soon. i will read up on it and post what i find and do it if i can.plenty o messianic sites and orthodox to compare. they often say the same. the messianics will say the messiah has come. the orthodox will say we await the messiah with the same verse.

OK. I agree. My point is that Sabbath was never changed --- I'll hold my belief whether or not it should be kept legalisitcally. My point I'm making, if I can bring up a straw man argument is that those who would keep the Sabbath because of their convictions are denigrated as some sort of legalist, while the critics turn around and keep Sunday instead and thus do a double sin: keep a Sabbath that's not supposed to be kept (because they argue that point) AND use the wrong day to boot. If they say, "We are only getting together to worship the Lord, what does it matter what day?" Then I have to retort, "And a Sabbath keeper can't do the same?"

I'm not sure what the threat is here. I really am puzzled why someone is being attacked for obeying the 4th commandment.

 

[jasoncran]

i am by nature a master at being a legalist. its when they say we are commanded to., not when i would like to celebrate the shabat i have a problem

if i felt that it was a sin, i wouldnt have read up on it and what both jews and messanic jews do. its not a sin.being a former jw, its taught to be very legalistic. but i find that when i think im all that. god humbles me.you all dont know the trial im in. save one.

 

[Stormcrow]

I still have not had a good explanation of...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Or does Paul's teachings override those of Jesus Christ?

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2 (NASB)

For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:18-24 (NASB)

Welcome to the new heaven and earth. Welcome to the new Jerusalem. Welcome to the kingdom of God.

Welcome to Christ's church and the new covenant He instituted through the shedding of His own blood.