Bible Study Are the Sabbath Laws Binding on Christians Today?

[wavy]

Could you elaborate, JM, because I don't take Ellen White and her teachings for anything.

 

[Jay T]

Should believers continue in sin? NO. God forbid.

Yet, because the modern Christian world knows not, the Bible definition of what sin is....they continue to commit sin !

Sunday worship services is sin...as it replaces the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) of what God established.
Mark 7:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition".

 

[JM]

Could you elaborate, JM, because I don't take Ellen White and her teachings for anything.

After studying theonomy, I can see how 7th day Sabbath keepers may worry about the future of their Sabbath keeping. That's all. White wrote that one day Sunday would be made binding on all Christians, the more Reformed Christians I speak with the more I see this idea spreading.

peace

j

 

[tim-from-pa]

Wavy:

I know where you are coming from, and I understand the differences between the house of Judah, the (lost) house of Israel and the Gentiles. I often refer to the Gentiles as "non-Israelite" so as not to confuse them with the lost Israelites that were and are mistaken for Gentile due to their lostness and blindness.

One of my favorite books is "Judah's Sceptre/Joseph's birthright"

I think the whole theology and understanding (or I should say misunderstandings) on both sides of the fence would be clarified if we see the whole thing regarding Israel as a family---- then again, I guess that comes easier for a guy like me into genealogy. :

 

[SputnikBoy]

As a matter of interest, how many on this thread are there who argue zealously against the Sabbath and refer to it as 'legalism' but who also 'keep' Sunday with zealous regularity?

 

[Jay T]

As a matter of interest, how many on this thread are there who argue zealously against the Sabbath and refer to it as 'legalism' but who also 'keep' Sunday with zealous regularity?

The answer is.....that they don't realize that Sunday worship services is ....Legalism.
Sunday worship services is, a 'works program'....designed to try to please God.

Faith, in Jesus Christ is believing what He says, right ?

And the Great Gospel commission which Jesus revealed in Matthew 28:18-20 states:
Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...."

I have yet to find, any mention of Jesus Christ, as to honoring Sunday in honor of His resurrection, have you ?

 

[Solo]

As a matter of interest, how many on this thread are there who argue zealously against the Sabbath and refer to it as 'legalism' but who also 'keep' Sunday with zealous regularity?

The answer is.....that they don't realize that Sunday worship services is ....Legalism.
Sunday worship services is, a 'works program'....designed to try to please God.

Faith, in Jesus Christ is believing what He says, right ?

And the Great Gospel commission which Jesus revealed in Matthew 28:18-20 states:
Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...."

I have yet to find, any mention of Jesus Christ, as to honoring Sunday in honor of His resurrection, have you ?

I have yet to hear Jesus Christ say to keep the sabbath as the Israelites were commanded to keep. I might have taken a little more interest in the SDA doctrine way back when, if they hadn't have followed the false prophet EG White.
That and the SDA misunderstanding of scripture has kept me altogether away from their fellowship.

I would have thought that if one was to keep the sabbath as the ten commandments declare, then the SDA members would be doing just as the Israelites did and keep it according to the whole law and not just what they feel is holy. Also, if the keeping of the sabbath was so important, why do we not read about it in the New Testament after Pentecost?

 

[wavy]

I have yet to hear Jesus Christ say to keep the sabbath as the Israelites were commanded to keep.

I've yet to hear Yahshua say bestiality is wrong. Why not mention any of these things? Perhaps because it was not prevalent at the time. I'm sure the Jews were already keeping it. No need to preach it to them (he only preached on how to keep it and to be wary of extrabiblical doctrines concerning it).

I might have taken a little more interest in the SDA doctrine way back when, if they hadn't have followed the false prophet EG White.
That and the SDA misunderstanding of scripture has kept me altogether away from their fellowship.

I have nothing to do with E.G.W (I know you weren't talking to me, just clearing this up. I am not a SDA).

I would have thought that if one was to keep the sabbath as the ten commandments declare, then the SDA members would be doing just as the Israelites did and keep it according to the whole law and not just what they feel is holy.

I believe this, however.

Also, if the keeping of the sabbath was so important, why do we not read about it in the New Testament after Pentecost?

Please read the rest of the book of Acts.

 

[Solo]

Nowhere am I told as a Gentile to keep the Sabbath.

 

[wavy]

Nowhere are you told as a Gentile that you are a part of the New Covenant, or Yahweh's chosen people.

 

[Solo]

Nowhere are you told as a Gentile that you are a part of the New Covenant, or Yahweh's chosen people.

Oh, you poor lost soul. You haven't understood so much that God has revealed to us in his Word.


For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke F29 for their sin. 23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. John 15:18-27

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? James 2:5

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Gentile): for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Romans 10:12

Gentiles are simply non-Jewish peoples.

 

[wavy]

Oh, you poor lost soul. You haven't understood so much that God has revealed to us in his Word.

I don't need your pity, thank you. You obviously (as usual) didn't understand what I said and failed to refute the point. There are only one scripture you posted and one statement you posted worthy of note that had anything to do with what I said:

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Gentile): for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Romans 10:12

Exactly. All are one Israel bride in Yahweh. According to Jeremiah 31:35-37 Israel will always be his people. Read Ephesians 2:11-22. Yahweh does not have two peoples. He has one. Also check Acts 1:4-6 and Galations 6:16 for reference. There is so much I could say on this. But anyway, this scripture absolutely refutes your point. Some believers seem to have a remote button that turns this passage on and off when they do or do not want to see it. If there is no difference between Jew and Greek (the Greeks here mentioned are not "gentiles" per say, they have a unique identity, but that doesn't matter; forget that I said that).

So by claiming to be a "Gentile" believer as proof that you do not have to keep the sabbath (and the rest of Torah for that matter), you have made a difference between Jew and Gentile believers, the total opposite of what scripture dictates.

Gentiles are simply non-Jewish peoples.

"Gentiles" means "nations", and yes it does refer to those usually in scripture who are "non-Jews". However, there is a certain group of people scattered out in the nations (Israelite exiles; there is also a difference between being an Israelite and a Jew if you haven't heard me say that before or don't already know that) that Messiah came to find and redeem, and they are all over the New Testament. However, whether non-biological or biological Israelites, all believers are Israel in Yahshua, spiritually and physically. Israel is his elect/chosen. If you don't consider yourself as one of them, then you exclude yourself from everything Yahweh has promised

You may need to believe that having Jewish heritage by genetics or by belief is something necessary to be Godly, but in fact it is a fallacy of understanding and will lead you into false teachings and error in judgment.

The new Jerusalem has the names of the twelve tribes, and the names of the twelve disciples. The non-Jews have been grafted into God's family as adopted children because of the blindness of the Jews. Simple. There are Jews and there are non-Jews, but in the body of Christ Jesus there is no difference, so I suggest that everyone live according to the Word and not according to the Jews.

It's too bad that more scripture isn't worthy to note to you, for it may open your eyes to your blind spots.

 

[wavy]

You may need to believe that having Jewish heritage by genetics or by belief is something necessary to be Godly, but in fact it is a fallacy of understanding and will lead you into false teachings and error in judgment.

OMGollies! Can I get a witness? Seriously, is anyone else reading this argument?

You completely skipped over every major point I made if you are accusing me of this nonsense. This form of arguing (refuting and arguing against points I do not make) have gotten more popular everytime some one cannot truly disprove what I said.

The new Jerusalem has the names of the twelve tribes, and the names of the twelve disciples. The non-Jews have been grafted into God's family as adopted children because of the blindness of the Jews. Simple. There are Jews and there are non-Jews, but in the body of Christ Jesus there is no difference, so I suggest that everyone live according to the Word and not according to the Jews.

You either are stubborn or can't read. Please re-read what I said...

 

[wavy]

It's too bad that more scripture isn't worthy to note to you, for it may open your eyes to your blind spots.

Too bad those scriptures have nothing to do with the point at hand. And how in the world are you posting this stuff under my name?

 

[tim-from-pa]

You may need to believe that having Jewish heritage by genetics or by belief is something necessary to be Godly, but in fact it is a fallacy of understanding and will lead you into false teachings and error in judgment.

OMGollies! Can I get a witness? Seriously, is anyone else reading this argument?

/color]

Wavy:

You have a witness here. However, some days we have more time to spare than others debating the two houses, Jews, Israelites and Gentiles. But unless you have such time, trust me, this is going to draw out because I am amazed at the fact that even scholars cannot seem to grasp the idea of the "house of Israel" and "house of Judah" without just lump-summing them all into one modern day group called the "Jews". I tried myself to make the same points literally hundreds of times with myriads of scripture and it just keeps going around and around. I guess I'm as "blind" as you are according to them. I have yet to hear any logical explanation to promises such as to Jacob becoming a "company of nations" if the Bible is approached the traditional way with only Jews and Gentiles since Jews never fulfilled that promise.

OK back to the history of the United States. There were these Yankees and there were Rebels. Both were taken captive and only the Rebels returned to the land. But everyone knows that Rebels are Yanks. And President Jefferson Davis succeeded Franklin Pierce while the confederate flag flew gracfully in New Hampshire. It's all the same history, right? Since they are all Americans. :

 

[Solo]

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 7:1-17


Now I see where those that are non-Jewish are saved, and I see where 12000 out of each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed for salvation, but I don't see any that hold to the "Messianic Israelite" doctrines in this portion of scripture. Why?

 

[wavy]

Wavy:

But unless you have such time, trust me, this is going to draw out because I am amazed at the fact that even scholars cannot seem to grasp the idea of the "house of Israel" and "house of Judah" without just lump-summing them all into one modern day group called the "Jews". I tried myself to make the same points literally hundreds of times with myriads of scripture and it just keeps going around and around. I guess I'm as "blind" as you are according to them. I have yet to hear any logical explanation to promises such as to Jacob becoming a "company of nations" if the Bible is approached the traditional way with only Jews and Gentiles since Jews never fulfilled that promise.

Appreciate the witnessing, tim. I'm amazed the scholars can't see it either. But the things of Yahweh are spiritually discerned. Most scholars are intelligent, but it all means nothing if Yahweh doesn't reveal it to you because you don't want to listen.

 

[wavy]

Now I see where those that are non-Jewish are saved, and I see where 12000 out of each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed for salvation, but I don't see any that hold to the "Messianic Israelite" doctrines in this portion of scripture. Why?

You still don't seem to understand the distinction between Jews and Israelites, but that is irrelevant. Anyway, are we to assume that the great multitude is of pure "gentile" compilation as opposed to the 144,000? No. The text doesn't say either way. But, it is obvious that the 144,000 are chosen to survive the great tribulation (I assume to proclaim Yahweh's Name and plan during the GT, since they are sealed with his Name), and that the great crowd are those who were killed during the GT. You automatically assume that there is a distinction here between "Jews" and "Gentiles" but that isn't the case. It's a difference between alive during the GT and those who die.

But even if that is not true, I know Israelite seed inherits and becomes the latter-day "nations" according to scripture. They become a multitude that is not numbered (Genesis 16:10, which is obviously what Revelation is referring to along with others) as promised to our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This multitude, even if they look like the nations (which the exiles eventually did) is still Israel and considered Israel and that is the point.

At the end of Revelation there is only room for Israel in the New Yahrushalayhim. No gate or pillar of healing fruit for gentiles. The "dogs" (metaphor for gentiles which is mentioned in Revelation 22:15) are not there.

 

[Solo]

Now I see where those that are non-Jewish are saved, and I see where 12000 out of each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed for salvation, but I don't see any that hold to the "Messianic Israelite" doctrines in this portion of scripture. Why?

You still don't seem to understand the distinction between Jews and Israelites, but that is irrelevant. Anyway, are we to assume that the great multitude is of pure "gentile" compilation as opposed to the 144,000? No. The text doesn't say either way. But, it is obvious that the 144,000 are chosen to survive the great tribulation (I assume to proclaim Yahweh's Name and plan during the GT, since they are sealed with his Name), and that the great crowd are those who were killed during the GT. You automatically assume that there is a distinction here between "Jews" and "Gentiles" but that isn't the case. It's a difference between alive during the GT and those who die.

But even if that is not true, I know Israelite seed inherits and becomes the latter-day "nations" according to scripture. They become a multitude that is not numbered (Genesis 16:10, which is obviously what Revelation is referring to along with others) as promised to our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This multitude, even if they look like the nations (which the exiles eventually did) is still Israel and considered Israel and that is the point.

At the end of Revelation there is only room for Israel in the New Yahrushalayhim. No gate or pillar of healing fruit for gentiles. The "dogs" (metaphor for gentiles which is mentioned in Revelation 22:15) are not there.

There is definitely a distinction between your understanding of Israel and the twelve tribes, and those of Israelite descent, and those of the Church. You make a distinction that their is not separate entity called the Church, but you are in error. The multitude that is too great to number that I mentioned in Revelation 7 are those that are in Christ Jesus before and after his ascension, while those 144,000 are sealed from every tribe of Israel, not just from two houses. The two house theory that you alude to is definitely in error as many scholars, messianic Jews, and the Church disagree to the legitimate interpretation being made by the Ephraim bunch. You can believe whatever you want, but when it becomes a promotion of your beliefs over Christianity you will be in violation of the Terms of Service of this forum. Be careful wavy.

 

[wavy]

There is definitely a distinction between your understanding of Israel and the twelve tribes, and those of Israelite descent, and those of the Church. You make a distinction that their is not separate entity called the Church, but you are in error.

This defies everything the scripture says about there being one body and one faith and no difference between believers. There is no separate entity "church" of supposed "gentiles". Not one scripture proves that. Not one. And until you can point it out to me, it seems that you are the one in error.

The multitude that is too great to number that I mentioned in Revelation 7 are those that are in Christ Jesus before and after his ascension, while those 144,000 are sealed from every tribe of Israel, not just from two houses.

You have got to be doing this just to annoy me. Do you NOT know that the two houses of Israel make up all twelve tribes? In one house there are two tribes (which are mixed with Levi). In the other house are the ten tribes. Now I know you have no clue what you are talking about. Tribes is not equivalent to houses. The multitude is Israel, plain and simple from the sum of the word according to Genesis 16:10. But you just ignored all that and formed an unsupported opinion, didn't you? You also ignored the fact that the 144,000 are believers too. They are just believers that are chosen to stay ALIVE.

The two house theory that you alude to is definitely in error as many scholars, messianic Jews, and the Church disagree to the legitimate interpretation being made by the Ephraim bunch.

Oh, so basically you believe what most people except? What's popular and common? Well, a friend of the world is an enemy of Yahweh...

Disprove it, then we'll talk. You have destroyed all biblical references and prophecies about the union of both houses. You have also ignored the fact that all believers are the same. No "separate entities". Didn't you just yesterday post a scripture talking about NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentiles? Guess you threw that one right out the window when it contradicted this point.

You can believe whatever you want, but when it becomes a promotion of your beliefs over Christianity you will be in violation of the Terms of Service of this forum. Be careful wavy.

Well, the bible does call us Christians and you could consider me one. But biblical Christianity doesn't teach what you are teaching.