Are we born with a sin nature?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, I was 'dead in trespasses and sins' (Ephesians 2.1), not because I robbed a bank when I was in a baby's buggy, but because I inherited it, because I was 'in Adam'. 'As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15.22).

I do not see in Eph 2:1 where it says man inherited Adam's sin.

 

[stovebolts]

My point from that post is the fact that BOTH belief and baptism are commanded to be saved then they are BOTH required for commands are not options.

You and I are not is disagreement Brother. James says that faith without works is dead and Peter says about baptism that it is : the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Faith and deeds working together... My point is that baptism is a response to the gospel and that good news is that Jesus died and rose again. And because he died and rose again, we have an assurance that we too will arise. If we hold on to this faith, our faith will not become shipwrecked and we will remain in the assurance of our faith of what Christ did and our relationship with Christ.

As Christians, we are to be followers of Christ. That is what we do. The ministry of Jesus started at his baptism.... and our ministry starts at baptism as well. If we can't follow Christ into the baptismal pool, then how can we follow any of his other commandments?

 

[BornAgain]

lol, Oh I know your not Catholic. I assume your a member of the CoC?

amazing how influential Augustine was huh? That's what happens when one has to win an argument as I'd assume you know Augustine was debating Universalism. Baptism was already agreed upon as a necessity for salvation. But that left the door open for infants. Push came to shove and the doctrine of baptism had to include children. Thus, no baptism = a life in hell. A clear line had been demarcated upon salvation. Of course, you had the un-official teaching of limbo...

BINGO! You mean "Purgatory?"

 

[stovebolts]

BINGO!

I can generally spot a Brother or Sister a mile away when we start talking baptism lol!

Anyway, not to squirrel the thread, but I'm a huge advocate of John Mark Hicks book "Down in the River to Pray: Revisioning Baptism as God's Transforming Work"

 

[BornAgain]

I can generally spot a Brother or Sister a mile away when we start talking baptism lol!

Anyway, not to squirrel the thread, but I'm a huge advocate of John Mark Hicks book "Down in the River to Pray: Revisioning Baptism as God's Transforming Work"

I have never heard of the book but will check it out on Amazon to see if it is available on Kindle.....thanks.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm sure it's on Kindle. If not you'll just have to get an old fashioned book lol! And yes, the book is on Amazon.

You might enjoy this.
http://johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=53318

 

[Davies]

Jeff,

Make sure you get your last rights too. Then if you haven't committed any mortal sin and didn't quite keep yourself perfect by doing everything God has commanded, then you can add blaspheme to the list for working off your sins in purgatory. That's all tongue in cheek. I don't perceive you to be Catholic, but anything we do does not justify us before God. That would be called self-righteousness. Only the righteousness of Jesus, the gift found in Romans 5 which is unlike the offense, will justify us before God. Even if our life is characterized by righteous deeds, this is only part of our sanctification which will be perfect on the day of our death. We will have nothing to boast about before God. Remember it is God who works in you to will and to do. The credit goes to God. I was in a Bible study this morning, and the same concept is found in Judges in the the Song of Deborah. "Bless the LORD."

Your handle begs the name Steve. Sorry bout that.

- Davies

 

[Deborah13]

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things.

John 9:20-35

King James Version (KJV)

20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

I have done my best to search the NT scriptures to find a teaching, instructional scripture that bears witness to the one above John 9:31. I can't find one.
The people speaking in the above search were a Jewish man who was healed and the Jewish Pharisees, who were frankly so wrong about so many things.

I tend to think that God does hear the prays of sinners when what they are praying will lead them to the saving knowledge of Him and not just the "sinners pray".

So I need some help here with more scripture to guide me.

Thanks, Deb

 

[stovebolts]

Ha, don't mind the Steve Brother Davies. Your not the first to call me Steve and you won't be the last lol!

Actually, I find myself also in complete agreement with your last post. But I also don't look at baptism as a work that we perform. It's God doing all the work.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We often go right to the jugular and quote Ephesians 2:8, but I believe that verse 8 is held in perfect tension by verse 10.

Just an observation, but the sad part about apologetics is that something not said is generally implied to mean something not intended. I recall teaching my first bible class and I said something that raised a lot of red flags. I spent what felt like 10 minutes handing out disclaimers for something that took 5 seconds to say. It was crazy...

Through all the arguments, if we could strip it all down and agree that Baptism is a response to the Gospel, then we've got a great foundation to work off of. Why? Because a natural response driven by a clean conscience is pure in it's intent. It's not a work that's done for a reward, it's simply a response to something amazing that is occurring in ones life.

Sometimes I really don't belong in this forum because I simply hate how so many people put all these rules around something that should flow naturally... if we could only teach it as a natural response because you see, if we taught it as identifying with the death burial and Resurrection of Christ himself (Romans 6), then that gives us our assuance of salvation because by being baptized, we reenact his death, burial and resurrection. In essence, we are united with Jesus in Baptism, and it's nothing we did as a wage because it wasn't done for a wage, it was done as a response.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe we are born with the nature of natural man, carnal in our ways.

However, until we are aware that we are deliberately doing something wrong (not just because mom says so) but by choice with full understanding and knowledge, those sins are not imputed to us. We are given a conscious so we will know.

Therefore, babies and small children do not have their sins imputed to them. Jesus, protects these little ones.

 

[Deborah13]

Ha, don't mind the Steve Brother Davies. Your not the first to call me Steve and you won't be the last lol!

Actually, I find myself also in complete agreement with your last post. But I also don't look at baptism as a work that we perform. It's God doing all the work.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We often go right to the jugular and quote Ephesians 2:8, but I believe that verse 8 is held in perfect tension by verse 10.

Just an observation, but the sad part about apologetics is that something not said is generally implied to mean something not intended. I recall teaching my first bible class and I said something that raised a lot of red flags. I spent what felt like 10 minutes handing out disclaimers for something that took 5 seconds to say. It was crazy...

Through all the arguments, if we could strip it all down and agree that Baptism is a response to the Gospel, then we've got a great foundation to work off of. Why? Because a natural response driven by a clean conscience is pure in it's intent. It's not a work that's done for a reward, it's simply a response to something amazing that is occurring in ones life.

Sometimes I really don't belong in this forum because I simply hate how so many people put all these rules around something that should flow naturally... if we could only teach it as a natural response because you see, if we taught it as identifying with the death burial and Resurrection of Christ himself (Romans 6), then that gives us our assuance of salvation because by being baptized, we reenact his death, burial and resurrection. In essence, we are united with Jesus in Baptism, and it's nothing we did as a wage because it wasn't done for a wage, it was done as a response.

Nice post!

 

[for_his_glory]

I generally agree with you for_his_glory. I can be pretty nit-picky, but I liked what you said. I'd be careful with saying that Satan introduced sin into the world though.
Romans 5:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world...

God gives the credit to Adam for bringing sin into the world.

I hope you had a nice day. I would probably be tempted to be lazy all day and spend a lot of time on my pc, but God has blessed me with a job.

- Davies

Yes I agree it was by one man Adam, but we can not forget this source by which he fell even though Adam chose to disobey is what I was trying to bring to light.

TY, that was kind of you and I hope you are having a great day too. I'm disabled and can no longer work, even though I do miss it at times. Hubby works second shift so I use most of those hours to dig into the word and study while the house is quiet.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water (Greek definition of water here is Gods word) and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God, Romans 8:6, 7.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that is incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid anyone who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first and at the same time of repenting we also receive the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38,39.

This is from the Jerusalem Bible:
John 4:1 When Jesus heard that the Pharisees had found out that he was making and baptizing more disciples than John though in fact it was his disciples who baptized, not Jesus himself he left Judaea and went back to Galilee.

Johns baptism was for repentance, not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit as no one even knew anything of a Holy Spirit until Jesus taught them that another comforter would come down and the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost in the upper room. When Jesus was baptized of John is was to fulfill righteousness as what we all do through water baptism as an outward appearance to others that you have been made righteous through Christ.
Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Mark 10:39; 16:15,16; Acts 2:38 It is Gods Spirit that was in Christ and which we are now baptized or have received as the disciples did on the day of Pentecost as when Jesus ascended into Heaven the Holy Spirit came down and fell on those who received Jesus and his word. The baptism that Jesus and Peter was talking about was a Spiritual rebirth through Gods word, not water, Luke 3:16, as Peter taught it was through repentance and accepting Jesus and his teachings is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[rrowell]

Just to bounce off that thought as it relates to the OP. The Catholic church believes so... They also erroneously believe the rite of Baptism is what saves. Thus, we have infant baptism.

Catholic or any denomination matters not, you say and I quote "erroneously believe the rite of Baptism is what saves."

How can you stand by this when Peter clearly says this:

1 Peter 3:20-22 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Do you believe that baptism is for remission of sins? and if so, how can a baby have "sins" to remit?

until a baby can know right from wrong he cannot transgress the law for sin is transgression of law:

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If a child inherits their sin from their parents, then how did Jesus get born sinless of his mother? was his mother sinless? did she not in some miraculous way not inherit her parents sins?

 

[for_his_glory]

John 9:20-35

King James Version (KJV)

20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

I have done my best to search the NT scriptures to find a teaching, instructional scripture that bears witness to the one above John 9:31. I can't find one.
The people speaking in the above search were a Jewish man who was healed and the Jewish Pharisees, who were frankly so wrong about so many things.

I tend to think that God does hear the prays of sinners when what they are praying will lead them to the saving knowledge of Him and not just the "sinners pray".

So I need some help here with more scripture to guide me.

Thanks, Deb

Hi Deborah, I have a class I teach on Salvation and Baptism on my website that may answer your questions in fuller detail with scripture. God does not hear a sinners prayer in the sense of those who only pray to God as in rubbing a lamp to get their wishes. We know all of us are sinners needing Gods grace and it is those sinners who in all humility and humbleness bow themselves before Christ Jesus as our mediator between us and God. We confess to Christ (mediator) that we are a sinner and ask for His forgiveness and it is then that God hears our petition and we are forgiven. Actually we are forgiven before we even ask as God already knows our heart, but we need to confess and believe in that whom Christ said hw was and still is. The URL for my website is at the bottom of my post and all you have to do is click on it.

(BTW, there is no actual sinners prayer that one has to repeat even though many Churches use one. Just talk to Jesus from your heart as you humble yourself before Him.)