Are we born with a sin nature?

[Ernest T. Bass]

We are born with a sin nature inherited from our fathers. Adam was created innocent and then sinned. His progeny carries the inherited fallen nature.

Jesus, of course, is sinless.
That is just one of the reasons his Father is God. So that he would not have a sin nature. Traducianism...Sorry if that is spelled wrong....

Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

If Jesus' brethren had a sin nature then Jesus did also.

 

[for_his_glory]

Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

If Jesus' brethren had a sin nature then Jesus did also.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Jesus was sent in the form, or likeness, of flesh, but not ever being in the flesh as Jesus was also Spirit being that of Gods word come in the likeness of flesh. This is why Jesus could not fall prey to Satan's temptations.

Yodas we do not inherit sin as that would be like receiving an evil gift from our fathers before us. Like in the sense that your dad left you a gift in his will as you have an inheritance from his death given to you from what he owned. We all have a nature to sin when our flesh falls prey to it, but none are born a sinner, but born into a sinful world and will fall prey to it's temptations.

 

[Davies]

Yodas_Prodigy,

Not everyone agrees with Ernest T. Bass and for_his_glory. I happen to agree with you, but this is an exercise in futility as most of the participants of this thread have been set in what they think the Scriptures say, including myself. No one here has convinced me that Romans 5 says anything else other than what I think is plain to read, and that is we do inherit the sin nature.

- Davies

 

[Grazer]

Yodas_Prodigy,

Not everyone agrees with Ernest T. Bass and for_his_glory. I happen to agree with you, but this is an exercise in futility as most of the participants of this thread have been set in what they think the Scriptures say, including myself. No one here has convinced me that Romans 5 says anything else other than what I think is plain to read, and that is we do inherit the sin nature.

- Davies

Even though there is nothing in the genesis account that says every generation will suffer in this manner as a result of what Adam and Eve did?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Davies]

Even though there is nothing in the genesis account that says every generation will suffer in this manner as a result of what Adam and Eve did?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Yes. All Scripture is inspired by God. So, even if many people disagree with me on original sin, it's important to take what is plain to put into perspective what is not.

Romans 5:12-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We are certainly born in Adam. I don't believe we are spiritually alive when newly born physically. The only exception to this might be John the Baptist. Yet, because John was the son of Adam, he needed the blood of Christ just as much as anyone else.


John 3:5

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

- Davies

 

[Grazer]

I started a thread a while back asking where Paul got this from if its not in the genesis account. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Edit; found it - http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45656

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I started a thread a while back asking where Paul got this from if its not in the genesis account. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Edit; found it - http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45656

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

You will not read anywhere in Rom 5 where Paul said man inherits sin or a sinful nature. In verse 12 Paul said death passed upon all for all have sinned and not for all have inherited sin from Adam.

The latter is being read into the context. It is a matter of consequence and not inheritance men suffer death. An example I have given is a drunk driver can cross the center line and kill others in a head-on collision but the victims die as a consequence of the drunk driver's sins and do not die by inheriting the drunk driver's sins.

In the latter verses of Rom 5 some want the first part of those verses to read that "all men" universally inherit Adam's sin unconditionally. If that is true the second part of those verses teach those same "all men" universally will be unconditionally made righteous by Christ. If the first part is true then the second part is just as true and therein lies the inconsistency with that mis-intepretation.

Overall the base problem with the idea of man having a sin nature is it puts culpability for man's sins upon God. If God created me with a sinful nature then I can only do what God has forced me to do and that is sin. I have no choice in the matter but can only sin. God forces me to be a sinner then punishes me for the sinner He made me to be. Did the man with one talent bury that talent for he had a sinful nature given him by God and that was all he could do therefore he puts blame on God calling God a 'hard man' or the man had a choice as the other men given talents yet he chose to bury his while the others did not? If all men have a sinful nature then why didn't all three bury their talents and all be cast into outer darkness?

 

[Davies]

You will not read anywhere in Rom 5 where Paul said man inherits sin or a sinful nature. In verse 12 Paul said death passed upon all for all have sinned and not for all have inherited sin from Adam.

The latter is being read into the context. It is a matter of consequence and not inheritance men suffer death. An example I have given is a drunk driver can cross the center line and kill others in a head-on collision but the victims die as a consequence of the drunk driver's sins and do not die by inheriting the drunk driver's sins.

In the latter verses of Rom 5 some want the first part of those verses to read that "all men" universally inherit Adam's sin unconditionally. If that is true the second part of those verses teach those same "all men" universally will be unconditionally made righteous by Christ. If the first part is true then the second part is just as true and therein lies the inconsistency with that mis-intepretation.

Overall the base problem with the idea of man having a sin nature is it puts culpability for man's sins upon God. If God created me with a sinful nature then I can only do what God has forced me to do and that is sin. I have no choice in the matter but can only sin. God forces me to be a sinner then punishes me for the sinner He made me to be. Did the man with one talent bury that talent for he had a sinful nature given him by God and that was all he could do therefore he puts blame on God calling God a 'hard man' or the man had a choice as the other men given talents yet he chose to bury his while the others did not? If all men have a sinful nature then why didn't all three bury their talents and all be cast into outer darkness?

Ernest T. Bass,

Jesus said a person, to include babies, still needs to be born of the Spirit, John 3:5. The question is why?

- Davies

 

[BornAgain]

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. Luke 18:16-17 (KJV)

No one has a right to forbid anyone's coming to Jesus. "For to such belongeth the kingdom of God." This seems to be from that which follows this statement, and the parable which precedes it, that Jesus was teaching the beauty of a humble and childlike spirit, and to commend such a spirit to his disciples for imitation. Evidently he does not say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to children, but "to such" does the kingdom of heaven belong.

This idea is strengthened by the record given by Mark: "For to such belongeth the kingdom of God." Mark 10:14.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. Luke 18:16-17 (KJV)

No one has a right to forbid anyone's coming to Jesus. "For to such belongeth the kingdom of God." This seems to be from that which follows this statement, and the parable which precedes it, that Jesus was teaching the beauty of a humble and childlike spirit, and to commend such a spirit to his disciples for imitation. Evidently he does not say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to children, but "to such" does the kingdom of heaven belong.

This idea is strengthened by the record given by Mark: "For to such belongeth the kingdom of God." Mark 10:14.

Yes, Jesus said nothing about babies in Jn 3:5 because He said of little children "such the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Davies]

Yes, Jesus said nothing about babies in Jn 3:5 because He said of little children "such the kingdom of heaven."

I think that's a stretch.

- Davies

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes. All Scripture is inspired by God. So, even if many people disagree with me on original sin, it's important to take what is plain to put into perspective what is not.

Romans 5:12-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We are certainly born in Adam. I don't believe we are spiritually alive when newly born physically. The only exception to this might be John the Baptist. Yet, because John was the son of Adam, he needed the blood of Christ just as much as anyone else.


John 3:5

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

- Davies

yes, sin spread to all man, but not inherited. Do you inherit a disease just because it is spread among the community, no you only catch it when you are exposed to it.

In Romans 5: 12-14, Paul is discussing the time period between Adam and Moses. Sin entered the world through one man (Adam). The penalty of sin is death, and Paul tells us that death entered humanity through Adam. All humans, except for John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, have sinned, Rom. 3:23, and death, therefore, has power over everyone. In verse 13, Paul uses the word law in two different senses. One law was given through Moses, but before that law was given, a more fundamental law existed. Between the time of Adam and Moses, everyone sinned. They were ignoring God, going their own ways, doing things God did not want them to do. God's law existed, even though it had not been written down, and everyone was transgressing it. Therefore, death ruled over them all, even if they did not break a specific command in the way that Adam did. Adam and Eve should have obeyed, but they acted selfishly, and they sinned. They wanted wisdom, but they tried to take it for themselves instead of receiving it legitimately. The result was death for them and all their descendants. All human beings have a selfishness that predisposes them to sin. Everyone sins, and everyone needs the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as Paul explains in Romans 5.

Cain had a built-in sense of right and wrong. He knew that his attitude toward his brother was wrong. God told Cain to resist the sinful nature, but instead he allowed it to rule over him, and he murdered his brother. This was a sin, even though no written law said it was. All normal humans have a conscience, a natural inbuilt sense of right and wrong. This is what Paul refers to in Romans 2:14-15. By nature, God has written a moral sense, a law, into human hearts. Their understanding of right and wrong is not perfect, but every sane person has at least a basic concept of right and wrong, of love and selfishness. Although everyone falls short, some people do have good behavior as compared to others. By nature, they do things that are required in God's law — not the rituals of Moses, but the more general requirements of the law that existed before Moses.

Although many people try to do what they think to be right, none is perfect. Many others choose to live selfishly, violating the standards of their societies. The biblical story tells us that people became more and more violent, and God destroyed them with a flood, Gen. 6:11-13. After the flood, he gave an additional warning about murder, Gen. 9:5-6. He also established a covenant or agreement with Noah, promising that he would not destroy the earth with a flood, verses 8-11. Abraham believed God, and he was therefore judged to be in a right relationship with God even though he was not perfect. If Abraham believed God's astounding promise, then he also had enough faith to do whatever God asked. Even when God's command seemed to threaten God's promise to him, Abraham was willing to obey God. But it was the faith, not the obedience, that was counted for righteousness. The attitude of heart was considered more important than the result.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think that's a stretch.

- Davies

Where in Jn 3 did Jesus say babies need to be born again? The new birth puts one into the kingdom yet Jesus said little children is such as the kingdom. So when one is born again he becomes as a innocent, little child.

Nicodemas asked how shall a man when he is old be born a second time. Nicodemus understood Jesus was speaking about older, mature people and not infants. Before one can be born again he must be capable of understanding, has to be able to understand a language, have critical thinking and reasoning skills when hearing the gospel and believing and infants are not capable of this. Children have no sins to be remitted so they are not candidates for being born again. Paul in Rom 7:8-9 says there was a time in his life when he was without the law, that is, a time in his life when sin was dead to him, sin had no power over him and that would have been when he was a little child, Deut 1:39 Sin sprang up in Paul later in his life when he did learn good from evil.

 

[Davies]

Hi for_his_glory,

In verse 13, Paul uses the word law in two different senses. One law was given through Moses, but before that law was given, a more fundamental law existed. Between the time of Adam and Moses, everyone sinned. They were ignoring God, going their own ways, doing things God did not want them to do. God's law existed, even though it had not been written down, and everyone was transgressing it. Therefore, death ruled over them all, even if they did not break a specific command in the way that Adam did. Adam and Eve should have obeyed, but they acted selfishly, and they sinned. They wanted wisdom, but they tried to take it for themselves instead of receiving it legitimately. The result was death for them and all their descendants. All human beings have a selfishness that predisposes them to sin. Everyone sins, and everyone needs the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as Paul explains in Romans 5.

I fail to see how Adam's sin was different than his children's. You're right, they acted selfishly and sinned. I don't see any difference, rather, I see that the spiritually dead Adam begot spiritually dead children who do the same thing as their father. God said, 'They know right and wrong like Us,' Genesis 3:22. Just as Adam's children had a sense of right and wrong, we should be able to see that they have the same nature as their father who after he sinned knew right and wrong.

No one has answered the question of why a person needs to be born of the water and the Spirit of God, John 3:5. I see evasion in Ernest's response. What about you for_his_glory. Are children born of the Spirit as newborns, then they lose the Spirit-born status and then have to be born again? And if you say they lose their Spirit born status, then when do they lose it? Which sin do they perform and die spiritually? Children do sin don't they? They neither know God, let alone their right hand from the left. Yet, children are the most selfish people I know. Sometimes they never mature and remain children in adult bodies. Plus they need the righteousness of Jesus in order to be accepted by the Father. There is no other way to Heaven but by Jesus Christ. To say that children who die before whatever sin accountable age there is, is to say there is another way to Heaven. I flat out reject that.

Righteousness came by one Man, and condemnation came by one man.

- Davies

 

[BornAgain]

Hi for_his_glory,

I fail to see how Adam's sin was different than his children's. You're right, they acted selfishly and sinned. I don't see any difference, rather, I see that the spiritually dead Adam begot spiritually dead children who do the same thing as their father. God said, 'They know right and wrong like Us,' Genesis 3:22. Just as Adam's children had a sense of right and wrong, we should be able to see that they have the same nature as their father who after he sinned knew right and wrong.

No one has answered the question of why a person needs to be born of the water and the Spirit of God, John 3:5. I see evasion in Ernest's response. What about you for_his_glory. Are children born of the Spirit as newborns, then they lose the Spirit-born status and then have to be born again? And if you say they lose their Spirit born status, then when do they lose it? Which sin do they perform and die spiritually? Children do sin don't they? They neither know God, let alone their right hand from the left. Yet, children are the most selfish people I know. Sometimes they never mature and remain children in adult bodies. Plus they need the righteousness of Jesus in order to be accepted by the Father. There is no other way to Heaven but by Jesus Christ. To say that children who die before whatever sin accountable age there is, is to say there is another way to Heaven. I flat out reject that.

Righteousness came by one Man, and condemnation came by one man.

- Davies

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)

There is one birth; there are two elements, "water," and "the Spirit." Both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved.Col 1:13-14.

To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for (unto) the remission of sins. To enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Since things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, it follows that to be born of water and the Spirit is to believe the gospel, repent of one's sins, confess one's faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission sins John 3:5, which states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38.

To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny baptism in its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret "water" in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world.

The flesh produces fleshly life; the Spirit begets spiritual life. Nicodemus had known only the first; the second he must experience before he could enter and enjoy the blessings and benefits of the kingdom. The law that like begets like was and is a universal one and Nicodemus ought already to have perceived it, instead of marvelling at it. It is as immutable and unchangeable as the law of gravity.

Can a baby hear the gospel, believe,repent of their sins (what sins does a baby have to repent for) and make a decision to be baptized? There is your explanation to John 3:5.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory,

I fail to see how Adam's sin was different than his children's. You're right, they acted selfishly and sinned. I don't see any difference, rather, I see that the spiritually dead Adam begot spiritually dead children who do the same thing as their father. God said, 'They know right and wrong like Us,' Genesis 3:22. Just as Adam's children had a sense of right and wrong, we should be able to see that they have the same nature as their father who after he sinned knew right and wrong.

No one has answered the question of why a person needs to be born of the water and the Spirit of God, John 3:5. I see evasion in Ernest's response. What about you for_his_glory. Are children born of the Spirit as newborns, then they lose the Spirit-born status and then have to be born again? And if you say they lose their Spirit born status, then when do they lose it? Which sin do they perform and die spiritually? Children do sin don't they? They neither know God, let alone their right hand from the left. Yet, children are the most selfish people I know. Sometimes they never mature and remain children in adult bodies. Plus they need the righteousness of Jesus in order to be accepted by the Father. There is no other way to Heaven but by Jesus Christ. To say that children who die before whatever sin accountable age there is, is to say there is another way to Heaven. I flat out reject that.

Righteousness came by one Man, and condemnation came by one man.

- Davies

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Matthew 19:
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Job 119:73 JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

God made each one of us in his image and since God is a Spirit without form that image would have to be his image of love. We are also conceived in our mothers womb as we are fashioned by the hands of God being therefore made in His image of love innocent in the womb until we are born as God gives us our breathe of life. We are born from the womb into a sinful world because of Satan using a serpent to tempt Eve who in lust also gave Adam to lust of the fruit. Believe it or not, but sin was in the world before the fall of Adam. Go study about Satan's fall to earth and then began to deceive the nations, Ezekiel chapter 28 and Isaiah 14:12-17. We were born into a sinful nature and prone to sin at some stage of our lives, but not being without any understanding how could a baby sin until it is trained to know right from wrong. Adam and Eve did not sin until they gained knowledge of it by their disobedience and then sin was revealed to them.

God knew from the very beginning that even before he created man he knew they would fall short because of Satan being in the world. God whom is Spirit without form took on that form of flesh and blood (Jesus) come to earth as His living word to walk among us teaching us how to reconcile ourselves back to Gods grace and mercy. Salvation only comes by that of Christ life, death and resurrection as through his sacrifice taking all of our sin and nailing it to the cross so we can have a mediator between us and God as Christ makes intercession for us as God can not look upon sin. That is why God had to turn away from Jesus on the cross as he was taking all our sin upon himself.

Jesus was teaching Nicodemus in John 3:3 that it was a Spiritual rebirth or renewal of our spirit that through Gods spoken word we can reconcile our past sins through repentance to be made sinless again before God. We are all born with a sin nature because of sin being introduced into the world through Satan’s deceit when he told Eve it was alright to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil even though God forbid them to eat of it. Our flesh will always sin because that is our nature and God can not see our flesh because of our sins nor can he hear the prayers of a sinner.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things.

 

[Davies]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)

There is one birth; there are two elements, "water," and "the Spirit." Both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved.Col 1:13-14.

To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for (unto) the remission of sins. To enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Since things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, it follows that to be born of water and the Spirit is to believe the gospel, repent of one's sins, confess one's faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission sins John 3:5, which states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38.

To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny baptism in its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret "water" in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world.

The flesh produces fleshly life; the Spirit begets spiritual life. Nicodemus had known only the first; the second he must experience before he could enter and enjoy the blessings and benefits of the kingdom. The law that like begets like was and is a universal one and Nicodemus ought already to have perceived it, instead of marvelling at it. It is as immutable and unchangeable as the law of gravity.

Can a baby hear the gospel, believe,repent of their sins (what sins does a baby have to repent for) and make a decision to be baptized? There is your explanation to John 3:5.

Hi BornAgain,

I'm not ready to believe that the water referred to in John 3:5 is baptism. I've heard the water can mean a couple of things, but not baptism. Many Catholics say you have to be baptized to be saved, but this is an outward work that supposedly earns merit before God. If we followed what you're thinking of baptism, then scratch the thief on the cross from being saved. I'd be more ready to believe that water refers to the Word that cleanses. I know there are many verses that talk about the sanctifying and cleansing power of the the Word. Baptism is a symbol of what has happened inwardly. There is nothing about about dipping in water that is efficacious to one's salvation.

A baby cannot repent, and neither is a baby righteous. A baby was born in Adam though, and through Adam, condemnation came to all men.

Romans 5:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

We are all born with a sin nature because of sin being introduced into the world through Satan’s deceit when he told Eve it was alright to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil even though God forbid them to eat of it. Our flesh will always sin because that is our nature and God can not see our flesh because of our sins nor can he hear the prayers of a sinner.

I generally agree with you for_his_glory. I can be pretty nit-picky, but I liked what you said. I'd be careful with saying that Satan introduced sin into the world though.
Romans 5:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world...

God gives the credit to Adam for bringing sin into the world.

I hope you had a nice day. I would probably be tempted to be lazy all day and spend a lot of time on my pc, but God has blessed me with a job.

- Davies

 

[BornAgain]

Hi BornAgain,

I'm not ready to believe that the water referred to in John 3:5 is baptism. I've heard the water can mean a couple of things, but not baptism. Many Catholics say you have to be baptized to be saved, but this is an outward work that supposedly earns merit before God. If we followed what you're thinking of baptism, then scratch the thief on the cross from being saved. I'd be more ready to believe that water refers to the Word that cleanses. I know there are many verses that talk about the sanctifying and cleansing power of the the Word. Baptism is a symbol of what has happened inwardly. There is nothing about about dipping in water that is efficacious to one's salvation.

A baby cannot repent, and neither is a baby righteous. A baby was born in Adam though, and through Adam, condemnation came to all men.

Romans 5:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

- Davies

Hi Davies,

I stated above that John 3:5 did not represent baptism, but it is affirmed in Acts 2:38. Baptism is a command by Jesus:

Mark 16:16 KJV
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The preaching of the gospel imposes duties and responsibilities upon those who hear it. Here it imposes faith and baptism. Water baptism is a command, not a promise.

Holy Spirit baptism is a promise, not a command. We obey commands and enjoy promises. Baptism in the commission is an act of obedience performed by the believer, and therefore it is a command.

This being true, and since baptism of the Holy Spirit is always a promise and never a command, therefore the baptism of the commission is not Spirit baptism. Water baptism is a burial. "We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death." Rom 6:4. "Having been buried with him in baptism." Col 2:12.

Read Romans 5:19 KJV

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. The reference in "obedience" is to the death of "Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all." 1 Tim 2:6.

"He humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross." Phil 2:8. "The many" includes the whole posterity of Adam. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor 15:22.

The whole human family will be raised from the dead. Through the death of Christ the whole human family are to be constituted righteous to the extent, and for the sole purpose, of being raised from the dead. They are made righteous to this end.

By the sin of Adam the many were made sinners so far as to be subjected to death; by the obedience of Christ the many were made righteous so far as to be raised from the dead.

The object is to show that just so far as the whole posterity of Adam have been made sinners through Adam's transgression, so far as they all made righteous through the death of Christ; and since Adam's disobedience brings death, so Christ's obedience brings the resurrection—and all this without any reference whatever to personal merits or demerits of those affected.

In other words, what was unconditionally lost in Adam is unconditionally gained in Christ.

 

[BornAgain]

I generally agree with you for_his_glory. I can be pretty nit-picky, but I liked what you said. I'd be careful with saying that Satan introduced sin into the world though.
Romans 5:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world...

God gives the credit to Adam for bringing sin into the world.

I hope you had a nice day. I would probably be tempted to be lazy all day and spend a lot of time on my pc, but God has blessed me with a job.

- Davies

Accordingly, though we die for Adam's sin, no one of us ever will be judged for it. For our own sins only will we be judged. These alone involve personal responsibility, and imply guilt. For them alone we shall have to account.