Are we born with a sin nature?

[Davies]

Hi Davies,

I stated above that John 3:5 did not represent baptism, but it is affirmed in Acts 2:38. Baptism is a command by Jesus:

Sorry about that BornAgain. I misunderstood what you said.

Read Romans 5:19 KJV

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. The reference in "obedience" is to the death of "Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all." 1 Tim 2:6.

"He humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross." Phil 2:8. "The many" includes the whole posterity of Adam. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor 15:22.

The whole human family will be raised from the dead. Through the death of Christ the whole human family are to be constituted righteous to the extent, and for the sole purpose, of being raised from the dead. They are made righteous to this end.

By the sin of Adam the many were made sinners so far as to be subjected to death; by the obedience of Christ the many were made righteous so far as to be raised from the dead.

The object is to show that just so far as the whole posterity of Adam have been made sinners through Adam's transgression, so far as they all made righteous through the death of Christ; and since Adam's disobedience brings death, so Christ's obedience brings the resurrection—and all this without any reference whatever to personal merits or demerits of those affected.

In other words, what was unconditionally lost in Adam is unconditionally gained in Christ.[/QUOTE]

I have struggled with the conditional and unconditional aspects of salvation. I think there is a condition somewhere, because all do not believe in Jesus. What a tragedy. I lean heavily to Calvanistic thinking, but I haven't thoroughly studied Calvin. I believe in the sovereignty of God. I believe that God works in a person to will and to do according to His good pleasure, Philippians 2:13. It is unknown to me therefore specifically why God chooses one and not another. In the end, the right presupposition to have concerning God is that He always does what is right. Romans 5:12-20 is very hard for many people to accept. It doesn't seem fare that we would be made sinners. Whether you believe we are born sinners, or have a sinful nature that leads us to naturally sin, is important in that for those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness, Romans 5:17, only they will reign with Christ. The offense is similar to the gift because by one all are are made a sinner and by One many are made righteous. In Romans 5:14, it says, "...Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." The big difference is Adam brought judgment and condemnation to all men, where Christ brings grace and life to those who receive. This dead horse is worth beating into eternity because it speaks to the heart of the Gospel. It seems unfair that we couldn't choose our representative before God, because he failed. It doesn't seem fair to think that we would be given the gift of Jesus' righteousness just for repenting and putting our faith in Jesus. God is good.

It's passed my bed time. Thank you for the stimulating thoughts. I think this is what God would have us to think about, because the Word cleanses us.

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm not ready to believe that the water referred to in John 3:5 is baptism.

Jn 3:5------------------Spirit++++++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------------Spirit++++++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Titus 3:5----------------Holy Ghost++++++++++++++washing of reg.>>>>>>>>>>>>saved


The phrases 'in the kingdom' 'in the body' and 'saved' are all equivalent, they all represent a saved position. Since there is just one way to be saved and the bible does not condradict itself then all three verses must express the same idea;

Spirit is equivalent to spirit is equivalant to Holy Ghost
Water is equivalent to baptized is equivelant to washing of regenertion
In the kingdom is equvalent to in the body is equivalent to saved


Since infants have no sins and baptism (born again) remits sins, then infants have no need to be baptized.


The thief lived under the OT law and therefore is not an example of NT salvation for us today.

 

[Davies]

Jn 3:5------------------Spirit++++++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------------Spirit++++++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Titus 3:5----------------Holy Ghost++++++++++++++washing of reg.>>>>>>>>>>>>saved


The phrases 'in the kingdom' 'in the body' and 'saved' are all equivalent, they all represent a saved position. Since there is just one way to be saved and the bible does not condradict itself then all three verses must express the same idea;

Spirit is equivalent to spirit is equivalant to Holy Ghost
Water is equivalent to baptized is equivelant to washing of regenertion
In the kingdom is equvalent to in the body is equivalent to saved


Since infants have no sins and baptism (born again) remits sins, then infants have no need to be baptized.

That's very Catholic of you Ernest.

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's very Catholic of you Ernest.

- Davies

Note that I quoted the bible and compared bible verses with bible verses and I did not quote from any Catholic book of doctrines.


Earlier Born Again posted "To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel."

Again, using the BIBLE and nothing else and comparing Bible verses with Bible verses we get:


Jn 3:5------------------Spirit++++++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------------Spirit++++++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Titus 3:5----------------Holy Ghost++++++++++++++washing of reg.>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1 Pet 1:22--------------SPirit++++++++++++++++++obeying the truth>>>>>>>>>purified your souls


Being water baptized is the same as obeying the truth (gospel).

I have another thread entitled "Acts 2 and Salvation" and from Acts 2:41 receiving the gospel is the same as being baptized and not being baptized is the same as rejecting the gospel.

 

[BornAgain]

Davies,

Baptism is not based on man made doctrine or denominations. It is scriptural and a command. I do not see how you can take scripture and turn it into a Catholic doctrine.

 

[Davies]

Davies,

Baptism is not based on man made doctrine or denominations. It is scriptural and a command. I do not see how you can take scripture and turn it into a Catholic doctrine.

Hi BornAgain,

I understand that baptism is commanded, but it is not required for salvation. Faith alone. Catholic teaching is you have to be baptize, along with another litany of other things a person must do, self-righteous works salvation. Now this direction in the conversation is going the wrong way. I felt I needed to call it out for what it was.

- Davies

 

[BornAgain]

Hi BornAgain,

I understand that baptism is commanded, but it is not required for salvation. Faith alone. Catholic teaching is you have to be baptize, along with another litany of other things a person must do, self-righteous works salvation. Now this direction in the conversation is going the wrong way. I felt I needed to call it out for what it was.

- Davies

Hi Davies,

What about the scripture I quoted made you determine that I am Catholic?

How then do you explain Mat 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:1-6, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12, 1 Pet 3:21?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi BornAgain,

I understand that baptism is commanded, but it is not required for salvation. - Davies

But a command is a requirement, not an option.

Not obeying a command is disobedience. Disobedience is sin and sin is why people will be lost.

Belief just like baptism is commanded so can it be said "belief is commanded, but it is not a requirement for salvation"?

 

[Davies]

But a command is a requirement, not an option.

Not obeying a command is disobedience. Disobedience is sin and sin is why people will be lost.

Belief just like baptism is commanded so can it be said "belief is commanded, but it is not a requirement for salvation"?

Believe me Ernest, I understand what you think.


BornAgain,

You have to understand, there is a lot of discussion behind these lovely disagreements.

- Davies

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Davies,

What do you think if we stripped away all the stigma associated with baptism and simply viewed it as a response to the gospel?

If we looked at baptism with that lens, do you think it would change how one would approach baptism?

 

[farouk]

It matters a lot on whether one is actually relying on the outward symbol for salvation or not. But it IS a reproach before the world, and the believer should be happy to bear that reproach, in testimony.

 

[stovebolts]

But a command is a requirement, not an option.

Not obeying a command is disobedience. Disobedience is sin and sin is why people will be lost.

Belief just like baptism is commanded so can it be said "belief is commanded, but it is not a requirement for salvation"?

Be careful Ernest. The two greatest commandments are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself. We all fail miserably at both.

Both of these commandments have to be lived out. I believe Baptism is an expression of love, gratitude and commitment toward God. I believe baptism would be better represented under those conditions than the stigma of authoritative commandments most often categorized as empty rituals.

 

[BornAgain]

It matters a lot on whether one is actually relying on the outward symbol for salvation or not. But it IS a reproach before the world, and the believer should be happy to bear that reproach, in testimony.

Hi Farouk,

I guess we got off topic here, are we born with a sin nature? Were you born a sinner?

(Nothing personal)

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Farouk,

I guess we got off topic here, are we born with a sin nature? Were you born a sinner?

(Nothing personal)

Just to bounce off that thought as it relates to the OP. The Catholic church believes so... They also erroneously believe the rite of Baptism is what saves. Thus, we have infant baptism.

 

[BornAgain]

Just to bounce off that thought as it relates to the OP. The Catholic church believes so... They also erroneously believe the rite of Baptism is what saves. Thus, we have infant baptism.

Right, the denominational world believes we inherit sin. Which we have proven through scripture that is false.

BTW, I am not Catholic....

 

[Davies]

Hi Davies,

What do you think if we stripped away all the stigma associated with baptism and simply viewed it as a response to the gospel?

If we looked at baptism with that lens, do you think it would change how one would approach baptism?

Hi Steve,

I would agree that baptism is a response to the Gospel. By faith a man is justified, then because we love Jesus for what He has done for us, we obey Him. We are not purified by what we do. We are purified by the Word, and through the washing in the blood of Jesus.
John 15:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


Revelation 7:14

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 And I said to him, “Sir,[a] you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Though I understand these to be tribulation saints, we need white robes too. What one believes determines what he will do. I'm certain the thief on the cross, given the opportunity, would have been baptized because Jesus forgave him, not so that Jesus would have forgiven him.

- Davies

 

[farouk]

Hi Farouk,

I guess we got off topic here, are we born with a sin nature? Were you born a sinner?

(Nothing personal)

Yes, I was 'dead in trespasses and sins' (Ephesians 2.1), not because I robbed a bank when I was in a baby's buggy, but because I inherited it, because I was 'in Adam'. 'As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15.22).

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Steve,

I would agree that baptism is a response to the Gospel. By faith a man is justified, then because we love Jesus for what He has done for us, we obey Him. We are not purified by what we do. We are purified by the Word, and through the washing in the blood of Jesus.
John 15:3

- Davies

Hi Davies,

Oh, you can call me Jeff, although your not the first to call me Steve. ;)

I would say that your on to something with your last post. I'm kinda thinking Peter agree's with you.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

And I assume you understand baptism in Romans 6.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Be careful Ernest. The two greatest commandments are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself. We all fail miserably at both.

Both of these commandments have to be lived out. I believe Baptism is an expression of love, gratitude and commitment toward God. I believe baptism would be better represented under those conditions than the stigma of authoritative commandments most often categorized as empty rituals.

My point from that post is the fact that BOTH belief and baptism are commanded to be saved then they are BOTH required for commands are not options.

As you point out the first and greatest commandment is to love God. How does man love God?

Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Jn 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

1 Jn 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

Obeying God is equivalent to loving God and obeyiing God's commands to believe and be baptized is how man loves God. Failing to obey the commands to believe and be baptize is failing to love God. God does not expect perfect obedience so He gave the Christian the avenue of repentance for when the Christian falls short and obeying by repenting is another way of loving God.


But to try and keep this on topic, infants have no sins so they are not candidates for being baptized (being born again) for remission of sins. Mk 16:16 Jesus made belief a prerequiste to baptism and again the newly concieved/newly born children do not have the mental ability or reasoning skills necessary to believe. They are in safe, innocent state (Rom 7:8-9) until they can learn good from evil, Deut 1:39 If baptism is not done in faith it is not pleasing to God, Heb 11:6 and infants are not capable of fulfiling this verse.

 

[stovebolts]

Right, the denominational world believes we inherit sin. Which we have proven through scripture that is false.

BTW, I am not Catholic....

lol, Oh I know your not Catholic. I assume your a member of the CoC?

amazing how influential Augustine was huh? That's what happens when one has to win an argument as I'd assume you know Augustine was debating Universalism. Baptism was already agreed upon as a necessity for salvation. But that left the door open for infants. Push came to shove and the doctrine of baptism had to include children. Thus, no baptism = a life in hell. A clear line had been demarcated upon salvation. Of course, you had the un-official teaching of limbo...