The Ephesians received the Spirit, not through baptism, but through the laying on of hands of an apostle. We do not just directly receive the Spirit today. Those in Samaria didnt and those in Ephesus didnt.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
- Thread starter gordon777
- Start date
"the Israelites of old were saved by Jesus just as all men are. When Christ died his blood flowed forward and backward. Those in the OT who were obedient to God, like Joshua and Caleb for example, were ultimately saved by the blood of Jesus. This is why the text says….”they ALL drank of that spiritual rock”. This shows the power that is in the blood and the planning and foreknowledge of God."
All in Adam died, but all in Christ shall be made alive.
All in Israel that never had the Spirit of Christ in them were then in Adam=death.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(Israel) They never believed and died in unbelief..
Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
All in Adam died, but all in Christ shall be made alive.
All in Israel that never had the Spirit of Christ in them were then in Adam=death.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(Israel) They never believed and died in unbelief..
Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
"This is Paul explaining what is taking place when the church comes together to partake in the Lords supper. Please try to keep things in context."
There is one cup of the Lord and one of the devil, you cant have a different cup without it being the devils cup. ( that is being a partaker of the Lords table)
There is one cup of the Lord and one of the devil, you cant have a different cup without it being the devils cup. ( that is being a partaker of the Lords table)
"Yes and this is “Johns gospel”. This is not the great commission that Jesus commanded before he ascended."
The Gospel of Christ preached by the Apostles includes what the Gospel of Christ contain, which OF COURSE IS JOHN THE BAPTIST BAPTISM OF CHRIST.
Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
The Gospel of Christ preached by the Apostles includes what the Gospel of Christ contain, which OF COURSE IS JOHN THE BAPTIST BAPTISM OF CHRIST.
Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
"This again is “Johns gospel“. These people were to come “confessions their sins”. Mk 1:5 The great commission of the gospel of Christ does not command us to “confess our sins” it commands us to confess with the mouth ”Jesus”."
The Gospels of Christ show all He did, for us to believe in all H did, you cant cut any part out, keep trying.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
The Gospels of Christ show all He did, for us to believe in all H did, you cant cut any part out, keep trying.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
"These people were taught the “kingdom of God”. You claim those in Ephesus were NOT taught the “kingdom of God”. This should at least prove to you that the accounts are not the same. You are adding things to the text that are not there."
In both occasions they had not believed through the Spirit, that is what was missing, and it is the Spirit that gives Spiritual understanding/belief.
What use is it to believe and not receive the Spirit ?
It is the same as having water baptism but not Anointing of the Holy Ghost, but Jesus received both water and the Holy Ghost Anointing.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
In both occasions they had not believed through the Spirit, that is what was missing, and it is the Spirit that gives Spiritual understanding/belief.
What use is it to believe and not receive the Spirit ?
It is the same as having water baptism but not Anointing of the Holy Ghost, but Jesus received both water and the Holy Ghost Anointing.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
"Yes. So what. The lesson is this…
You cant be taught wrong and end up right?"
The lesson is you cant receive the Spirit Anointing without acknowledging that Jesus Christ was baptized by both water and the Holy Ghost.
Also without acknowledging that the people hearing the preaching of the Apostles received the Spirit through hearing how Jesus was baptized by John( this is all part of the commission of faith)
You cant be taught wrong and end up right?"
The lesson is you cant receive the Spirit Anointing without acknowledging that Jesus Christ was baptized by both water and the Holy Ghost.
Also without acknowledging that the people hearing the preaching of the Apostles received the Spirit through hearing how Jesus was baptized by John( this is all part of the commission of faith)
"Paul said that in the letter to the Ephesians who were baptized in water twice. So I hope you dont think that Paul would baptize these people a second time, in water, and then go tell them that some other baptism is the “one baptism”? That would not make a lot of sense and would be contradictory."
Baptism is what Jesus had done, to show man how to believe in Him fulfilling all righteousness, of course we cant ignore that part and claim we believe in Jesus Christ.
Also, even though men had heard and believed, they had no Spirit, the same as others had only believed in the baptism of John, it is the Spirit( the grace of Christ) that is everything.
Baptism is what Jesus had done, to show man how to believe in Him fulfilling all righteousness, of course we cant ignore that part and claim we believe in Jesus Christ.
Also, even though men had heard and believed, they had no Spirit, the same as others had only believed in the baptism of John, it is the Spirit( the grace of Christ) that is everything.
"Again….what does the text say? The people in Samaria DID NOT receive the Spirit through prayer. The text says…
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
When did those in Samaria receive the Spirit? AFTER an apostle laid his hands on them And NOT before."
No person gives the Spirit, it is the grace of Jesus Christ.
The point you miss is that no person is able to receive the Spirit, unless graced by Jesus Christ( not in themselves or from another) the Apostles prayed to God and it is God who gives then, not anyone else.
READ
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
When did those in Samaria receive the Spirit? AFTER an apostle laid his hands on them And NOT before."
No person gives the Spirit, it is the grace of Jesus Christ.
The point you miss is that no person is able to receive the Spirit, unless graced by Jesus Christ( not in themselves or from another) the Apostles prayed to God and it is God who gives then, not anyone else.
READ
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
"Yes he was deficient in his knowledge. Can one be taught wrong and end up right? Not according to the Bible. The great thing about Apollos was….when he was pulled aside and “taught the way more accurately” he didnt condemn Acquila and Priscilla for showing him truth like many do on “christian” forums. Apollos didnt put Acquila on ignore just because he told Apollos he was wrong."
Not having been prayed to God by the Apostles, only being baptized unto the baptism of John, only knowing the baptism of John, it is all deficiency, and it is WHY, after all was corrected, all received the Spirit of Christ correctly.
Not having been prayed to God by the Apostles, only being baptized unto the baptism of John, only knowing the baptism of John, it is all deficiency, and it is WHY, after all was corrected, all received the Spirit of Christ correctly.
The Israelites “believed” in God. You think these people that witnessed the ten plagues, the parting the Red Sea, the manna, the quail, the fire by night. You think these people didnt know who God was? You think these people didnt believe in God and who he was? That is an impossibility! These people are examples to us in that we too can “believe” in Jesus or in God just as they did, but they didnt have “faith” in that they didnt believe in the words that God had spoken to them. The promises that he had made to them. They were disobedient..
Ex 19:5-8 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.
Did these people follow through with this? No, they were disobedient and perished because of “unbelief”.
Yes. They are examples for us today..
Example…
God says….he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Salvation clearly occurs after baptism.
God says…water baptism is for the remission of sins.
But you say that one is saved at the point of belief. You say that sins are remitted at the point of belief.
You do not believe in the words and promises God has made so therefore you are in a state of unbelief.
This is how they are examples to us.
"The Ephesians received the Spirit, not through baptism, but through the laying on of hands of an apostle. We do not just directly receive the Spirit today. Those in Samaria didnt and those in Ephesus didnt."
You are talking silly, to ignore the reason anyone received the Holy Ghost ?
Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
God gives, man does not, it is the grace of Christ, not the grace of Paul.
God is prayed to, and God is the one ONLY WHO GIVES AND ALLOWS.
You are talking silly, to ignore the reason anyone received the Holy Ghost ?
Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
God gives, man does not, it is the grace of Christ, not the grace of Paul.
God is prayed to, and God is the one ONLY WHO GIVES AND ALLOWS.
"The Israelites “believed” in God. You think these people that witnessed the ten plagues, the parting the Red Sea, the manna, the quail, the fire by night. You think these people didnt know who God was? You think these people didnt believe in God and who he was? That is an impossibility! These people are examples to us in that we too can “believe” in Jesus or in God just as they did, but they didnt have “faith” in that they didnt believe in the words that God had spoken to them. The promises that he had made to them. They were disobedient.."
The Lord saved the people out of Egypt, yet they never believed in Him, they never had faith.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
It did not matter if the people witnessed the rd sea parting miracles, the same occured again when the people of Israel saw the Sons miracles, but nobody was able to believe the report, as their hearts were hardened
Deuteronomy 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
The Lord saved the people out of Egypt, yet they never believed in Him, they never had faith.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
It did not matter if the people witnessed the rd sea parting miracles, the same occured again when the people of Israel saw the Sons miracles, but nobody was able to believe the report, as their hearts were hardened
Deuteronomy 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
"God says….he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Salvation clearly occurs after baptism.
God says…water baptism is for the remission of sins.
But you say that one is saved at the point of belief. You say that sins are remitted at the point of belief.
You do not believe in the words and promises God has made so therefore you are in a state of unbelief.
This is how they are examples to us."
Israel is the example of not having God revealed to them.
Nobody can be baptized without believing with all of their heart, and God has not let it enter into the hearts of men the things God has prepared for those who love Him.
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
God says…water baptism is for the remission of sins.
But you say that one is saved at the point of belief. You say that sins are remitted at the point of belief.
You do not believe in the words and promises God has made so therefore you are in a state of unbelief.
This is how they are examples to us."
Israel is the example of not having God revealed to them.
Nobody can be baptized without believing with all of their heart, and God has not let it enter into the hearts of men the things God has prepared for those who love Him.
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The cup and baptism to the 12 Apostles, is not a different one for anyone else, nor is it a different cup to that of the Lords blood, shed for us. The baptism is one, and the cup is from that one Lord and one Spirit and one faith of Jesus Christ.
The antichrist spirit denies Christ in the flesh and cannot acknowledge the baptism of Jesus to fulfil all righteousness in water from John the Baptist.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
The antichrist spirit denies Christ in the flesh and cannot acknowledge the baptism of Jesus to fulfil all righteousness in water from John the Baptist.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
The lessons learned ?
We do have to both believe in the same cup and same baptism, and also we do have to know that it is the Spirit that gives that understanding and belief, otherwise we have nothing.
We are able to drink of the same cup and be baptized with the same baptism Christ was baptized of, and the prayer is that God gives the Spirit in the revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Otherwise we cannot even acknowledge this, as acknowledging of the truth is after godliness which leads to salvation..
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
We do have to both believe in the same cup and same baptism, and also we do have to know that it is the Spirit that gives that understanding and belief, otherwise we have nothing.
We are able to drink of the same cup and be baptized with the same baptism Christ was baptized of, and the prayer is that God gives the Spirit in the revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Otherwise we cannot even acknowledge this, as acknowledging of the truth is after godliness which leads to salvation..
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Knowledge is not enough, charity is what we are to believe in, as the wisdom a man presents is futile, and useless, useful only for his own twisted purposes.
Jesus did baptize in water, it is not an offence, it is the truth, and it is part of our belief in His righteousness.
There is one way to follow, it is the way of Jesus, the Apostles followed in every detail the same.
The wolves entered the flock after the Apostles of the Lord departed, but their fruit it thorns and briers, they have nothing good to say at all, only weakness, and the wrong voice and way of seeing, for everything.
Jesus did baptize in water, it is not an offence, it is the truth, and it is part of our belief in His righteousness.
There is one way to follow, it is the way of Jesus, the Apostles followed in every detail the same.
The wolves entered the flock after the Apostles of the Lord departed, but their fruit it thorns and briers, they have nothing good to say at all, only weakness, and the wrong voice and way of seeing, for everything.
Im just reading what the text says and believing in the message God gave me. He gave you the same message but for some reason you like to add to word God has already given us.
Did these people receive the Spirit AFTER an apostle laid hands on them? Yes or no? Would they have received the Spirit without the actions of the apostles? No. Lets see how honest you are with the text.
I dont know what you are trying to say here. I do not think this passage is talking about the Holy Spirit. The translators didnt think so either. But…But, did Paul lay his hands on these individuals and impart unto them spiritual gifts? Yes. Did an apostle lay hands on you? No.
Does God ever use man to give? Its obvious that these individuals would not have had received the Spirit with out the intervention of man. We know this because God had every opportunity to just fall on them and he didnt.
Why did the Spirit tell a man to go preach to the Eunuch. Why didnt he just do it himself.
Why did Jesus send Ananias to go preach to Saul and baptize him? Why didnt he just do it himself.
But does God ever use man to give? Will you give me an honest biblical answer?