Attention Athiest and non-Christians

[sehad]

Seondly, the bible was originally in what, Hebrew? There is only one word for Hell in the English language and that is Hell. In other languages it can be Gehenna, Hades, or Sheol. All of which are referenced to different places, but when translated into English, it only says Hell for all 3. You can see where the different translations could also cause confusion. This would not be GOD's fault would it?

You may be able to think up examples where God wouldn't be to blame for misunderstandings, but that doesn't change the fact that a Deity could presumably have made the Bible 10 times clearer than it actually is.

Examples of where it is not clear?

 

[DivineNames]

Examples of where it is not clear?

One example would be the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate. Another example would be that the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke appear inconsistent.

 

[Novum]

Two different scriptures from the bible not meant to be put together but if someone was to, you could see where it could lead to some problems. I do not blame GOD for man's different interpretations that cause strife.

Even if it was entirely mankind's fault, why has god allowed this confusion to continue? Wars have been fought and many have been killed over these conflicting messages. We're clearly unable to get the message right, so why doesn't god step in and stop (or at least reduce) the confusion?

Seondly, the bible was originally in what, Hebrew? There is only one word for Hell in the English language and that is Hell. In other languages it can be Gehenna, Hades, or Sheol. All of which are referenced to different places, but when translated into English, it only says Hell for all 3. You can see where the different translations could also cause confusion. This would not be GOD's fault would it?

Nope, this is very clearly a limitation of human language. Yet I'm still left wondering why god didn't do a better job reducing confusion.

 

[mutzrein]

I think it is all part of God's plan. Just like the parables - those who are meant to understand, will - and those who are not, won't. What difference should that make to an athiest?

 

[reznwerks]

understands

I think it is all part of God's plan. Just like the parables - those who are meant to understand, will - and those who are not, won't. What difference should that make to an athiest?

Do you think you could enlighten us as to who "understands" correctly? (some what 1400 different denominations?) Go back and find out WHY Jesus spoke in parables. He did so to purposely hide the meaning from the gentile. Only Paul changed that scenario and he never met Jesus. It matters to an atheist because atheists get dragged into these theistic wars and oppression.

 

[mutzrein]

Re: understands

I think it is all part of God's plan. Just like the parables - those who are meant to understand, will - and those who are not, won't. What difference should that make to an athiest?

Do you think you could enlighten us as to who "understands" correctly? (some what 1400 different denominations?) Go back and find out WHY Jesus spoke in parables. He did so to purposely hide the meaning from the gentile. Only Paul changed that scenario and he never met Jesus. It matters to an atheist because atheists get dragged into these theistic wars and oppression.

Understanding is not the domain of any one, or myriad of denominations. Understanding is given to those individuals to whom the gift of understanding is given. For any one person or group or denomination to state or even imply that they have a monopoly on understanding on all things is a fallacy. I have understanding of some things and others of others.

And Jesus did not speak in parables to hide the meaning from the gentile. Jesus spoke in parables often about the kingdom of God. It is those to whom the keys to the kingdom have been given that have understanding. Many of course, say they understand, just as many say they are Christians. But I would say that many who make this claim do not even understand what a Christian is.

 

[Guest]

It is easy to see what some of your are saying. How many people would be alive today if God had stepped in and put a stop to the offspring of Abraham .. . . . those who are now the Muslim religion?? We have had COUNTLESS deaths and atrocities over thousands of years because of that one person, . . . . . and the fact that billions over the centuries have staked sides and have TOTALLLY BELIEVED that they are THE true faith, and that God is THEIR God, . . . . . . . even when the other side is just as sure that THEY are God's true people, . . . . . . . . . what do we draw from this???

We have a least 4 different religions that come from the same Old Testiment God (though some are more connected than others).

Jewish religion.
Catholic religion.
Christian religion.
Muslim religion.

Again, all believe that THEY are right and the others are wrong. :-?

 

[mutzrein]

It is easy to see what some of your are saying. How many people would be alive today if God had stepped in and put a stop to the offspring of Abraham .. . . . those who are now the Muslim religion?? We have had COUNTLESS deaths and atrocities over thousands of years because of that one person, . . . . . and the fact that billions over the centuries have staked sides and have TOTALLLY BELIEVED that they are THE true faith, and that God is THEIR God, . . . . . . . even when the other side is just as sure that THEY are God's true people, . . . . . . . . . what do we draw from this???

We have a least 4 different religions that come from the same Old Testiment God (though some are more connected than others).

Jewish religion.
Catholic religion.
Christian religion.
Muslim religion.

Again, all believe that THEY are right and the others are wrong. :-?

Ah that is interesting. Someone on the outside perceiving that there is a difference between Catholic & Christian.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: understands

[

Understanding is not the domain of any one, or myriad of denominations. Understanding is given to those individuals to whom the gift of understanding is given. For any one person or group or denomination to state or even imply that they have a monopoly on understanding on all things is a fallacy. I have understanding of some things and others of others.
What kind of an answer was that and do you really believe it? I guess everyone can come to their own understanding of the message even though there is only one God. Burger King here we come!

And Jesus did not speak in parables to hide the meaning from the gentile. Jesus spoke in parables often about the kingdom of God. It is those to whom the keys to the kingdom have been given that have understanding. Many of course, say they understand, just as many say they are Christians. But I would say that many who make this claim do not even understand what a Christian is.
YES Jesus did speak in parables to hide the message from the gentiles.

And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude.....And he taught them many things by parables....And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them... Unto you [his disciples] it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: [in order] that... they...not perceive...and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.....But without a parable spake he not unto [his disciples]: and when they were alone, he expounded ALL THINGS to his disciples. (Mark 4:1-34)

Mark tells us that Jesus, without speaking in parables, "expounded all things to his disciples". Since Jesus did not want those outside his group of followers to know the mysteries of God, he spoke to them in parables in order that they would not learn that which is necessary to be saved. Mark's view receives support from Paul in a letter he he wrote to church members in Corinth, Greece, a city he chose for evangelizing: "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Thus, Paul is telling the reader that God gives up on those who he believes are lost and hides from them the light of his son's glorious gospel.


....And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because [in this way] they...see not... and hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:1-13)

Matthew cites scripture to justify his having Jesus hide God's message from the Gentiles: "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive." (Matthew 13:14) The scripture to which Matthew refers is the one in which the command is given to "shut the eyes" of the Gentiles: "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." (Isaiah 6:9-11)


This is not the only time Matthew demonstrates his belief that God's message of salvation was not to be wasted on Gentiles. Matthew has Jesus give his famous speech urging his followers to ignore them: "Go not into the way of the Gentiles....but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:7, Matthew 15:24)

 

[mutzrein]

Re: understands

What kind of an answer was that and do you really believe it? I guess everyone can come to their own understanding of the message even though there is only one God. Burger King here we come!

Why would I say something I don't believe? You don't know me nor my relationship with God so don't mock me.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: understands

What kind of an answer was that and do you really believe it? I guess everyone can come to their own understanding of the message even though there is only one God. Burger King here we come!

Why would I say something I don't believe? You don't know me nor my relationship with God so don't mock me.

So what did you think about the rest of my response?

 

[mutzrein]

Reznwerks - are you Jew or Gentile?

 

[reznwerks]

matter

Reznwerks - are you Jew or Gentile?

Does it matter?

 

[sehad]

Examples of where it is not clear?

One example would be the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

I do not see how one that reads the bible in its entirety can see this as being a debate. What, in your opinion, makes this debate unclear?

Another example would be that the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke appear inconsistent.

What about these two occurences seem to be inconsistent or contradict each other?

 

[mutzrein]

Re: matter

Reznwerks - are you Jew or Gentile?

Does it matter?

No of course it doesn't and that is exactly my point with regard to the parables.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: matter

Reznwerks - are you Jew or Gentile?

Does it matter?

No of course it doesn't and that is exactly my point with regard to the parables.

Unless you are a Jew it does matter in regards to parables. Jesus plainly said he didn't come for the gentile.It was primarily Paul who never met Jesus that changed this thinking.Christianity as we know it was fathered by Paul and not Peter upon who Jesus said his church would be built.

 

[sehad]

Re: matter

Unless you are a Jew it does matter in regards to parables. Jesus plainly said he didn't come for the gentile.

True, but in Matthew chapter 15 Jesus healed a Gentile's woman's child due to her faith. When the vail was rent when Jesus was crucified signifies Jesus "releasing" his power to everyone. Up until that time only the priests were able to feel God's power.


It was primarily Paul who never met Jesus that changed this thinking.Christianity as we know it was fathered by Paul and not Peter upon who Jesus said his church would be built.

Matthew 8:16-17 is shown below(KJV):

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

From what I get from this, it is the revelation of Jesus being Christ, the Son of the living God that Jesus will build his church upon. Not Peter.

 

[DivineNames]

One example would be the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

I do not see how one that reads the bible in its entirety can see this as being a debate. What, in your opinion, makes this debate unclear?

Well I can see it as a debate, because people discuss the issue and argue for their point of view. And I haven't claimed that the debate is unclear, I have claimed that the Bible is unclear. What, in my opinion, is evidence that the Bible is unclear? The fact that people can't agree what it says, like with the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

 

[DivineNames]

Another example would be that the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke appear inconsistent.

What about these two occurences seem to be inconsistent or contradict each other?

You mean you can't tell? :D

 

[sehad]

One example would be the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

I do not see how one that reads the bible in its entirety can see this as being a debate. What, in your opinion, makes this debate unclear?

Well I can see it as a debate, because people discuss the issue and argue for their point of view. And I haven't claimed that the debate is unclear, I have claimed that the Bible is unclear. What, in my opinion, is evidence that the Bible is unclear? The fact that people can't agree what it says, like with the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

What I meant is that nowhere in my reading can I find any support for annihilationism. This belief comes from someone that has this idea and skews the bible to fit their view.

Another example would be that the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke appear inconsistent.

What about these two occurences seem to be inconsistent or contradict each other?

You mean you can't tell?

Why don't you tell me and I'll read it to see if I see the same thing.