Attention Athiest and non-Christians

[Drew]

One example would be the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

I do not see how one that reads the bible in its entirety can see this as being a debate. What, in your opinion, makes this debate unclear?

Well I can see it as a debate, because people discuss the issue and argue for their point of view. And I haven't claimed that the debate is unclear, I have claimed that the Bible is unclear. What, in my opinion, is evidence that the Bible is unclear? The fact that people can't agree what it says, like with the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

What I meant is that nowhere in my reading can I find any support for annihilationism. This belief comes from someone that has this idea and skews the bible to fit their view.

As an annihiliationist who likes to think that I take the Scriptures seriously, you can imagine how I consider this last statement to be massively question-begging. In other words, and with no disrespect to Sehad, please search the Scriptures yourselves and decide what they teach about this topic - do not assume that we annihilationists have simply "skewed the Bible to fit our views".

But, I digress.

I agree with DivineNames that the "Bible is unclear". And I agree with him that the evidence is the lack of agreement among Christians. Arminian vs Calvinist, eternal hell vs annihilation: You name it, we disagree on it.

I do not find this ambiguity to be particularly disturbing. Welcome to the real world as importantly distinguished from the fantasy world of "black and white" that seems to pervade much Christian thinking. I would be surprised and perhaps a little disappointed if making sense out of the Scriptures were an easy task. I do not see the ambiguity of the Scriptures as suggestive that God "did not do a very good job". Instead I question the reasonableness of the expectation that this richly complex world would be amenable to unambiguous codification in a 700 page book written over thousands of years by dozens (if not more) of authors.

 

[sehad]

One example would be the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

I do not see how one that reads the bible in its entirety can see this as being a debate. What, in your opinion, makes this debate unclear?

Well I can see it as a debate, because people discuss the issue and argue for their point of view. And I haven't claimed that the debate is unclear, I have claimed that the Bible is unclear. What, in my opinion, is evidence that the Bible is unclear? The fact that people can't agree what it says, like with the annihilationism vs. eternal hell debate.

What I meant is that nowhere in my reading can I find any support for annihilationism. This belief comes from someone that has this idea and skews the bible to fit their view.

As an annihiliationist who likes to think that I take the Scriptures seriously, you can imagine how I consider this last statement to be massively question-begging. In other words, and with no disrespect to Sehad, please search the Scriptures yourselves and decide what they teach about this topic - do not assume that we annihilationists have simply "skewed the Bible to fit our views".

But, I digress.

Drew, I do apoligize for my last statement about skewing the bible to fit your beliefs. I have been placed in a category that has "offended" me for lack of a better word and I know how this feels. Again I apoligize to you and all annihiliationist on this forum. Seems like I've done something that I can't stand for people to do to me. :

I have read many scriptures on this and I have made up my own mind but can offer me any scriptures that support your belief?

 

[reznwerks]

Re: matter

Unless you are a Jew it does matter in regards to parables. Jesus plainly said he didn't come for the gentile.

True, but in Matthew chapter 15 Jesus healed a Gentile's woman's child due to her faith. When the vail was rent when Jesus was crucified signifies Jesus "releasing" his power to everyone. Up until that time only the priests were able to feel God's power.

Read it again. The woman NAGGED him until Jesus gave in. The rest is your interpretation.

It was primarily Paul who never met Jesus that changed this thinking.Christianity as we know it was fathered by Paul and not Peter upon who Jesus said his church would be built.

Matthew 8:16-17 is shown below(KJV):

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

From what I get from this, it is the revelation of Jesus being Christ, the Son of the living God that Jesus will build his church upon. Not Peter.
Whatever you get is not Paul upon which Christianity is founded.

 

[sehad]

Re: matter

Read it again. The woman NAGGED him until Jesus gave in. The rest is your interpretation.

I do agree that Jesus did not come to the gentiles, but came to be our sacrifice and fulfil the law that we all may be saved. If Christ had not died on the cross for our sins, the gentiles would still be "lost" according to Jewish standards. If I'm not mistaken, most of the Jews did not accept Jesus as their messiah so do they still believe that gentiles cannot be or are not saved?

I agree that the woman nagged but read the following scripture:

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

She may have nagged him, but it was her faith that got Jesus's attention. I do believe that if she had not nagged him, he would not have healed her daughter but it was her faith that made her nag in the first place.



Whatever you get is not Paul upon which Christianity is founded.

I'm not sure what you mean here rez, is this a question?

 

[DivineNames]

Why don't you tell me and I'll read it to see if I see the same thing.

The birth narrative in Matthew suggests that they didn't originally live in Nazareth, but went and moved there. As it happens, neither of the stories looks very plausible.


Matthew


Jesus was born in Bethlehem, (in Judaea), in the days of Herod.

An angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and warned him to flee into Egypt with his family, because Herod was looking for Jesus and wanted to kill him.

Joseph immediately takes Mary and Jesus to Egypt.

When Herod died, they wanted to return to Judaea, but they found another Herod (Archelaus) was there, and so they "came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth"


Luke

Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, (in Galilee).

Augustus Caesar required that everyone register for tax purposes, in the home town of a remote ancestor apparently.

Joseph was descended from David, and so he went to Bethlehem with Mary.

While they were there, Mary gave birth to Jesus.

They visited Jerusalem.

They returned to their own city Nazareth.

 

[DivineNames]

I have read many scriptures on this and I have made up my own mind but can offer me any scriptures that support your belief?

An article arguing for annihilationism–

The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent
by Clark H. Pinnock
http://www.abc-coggc.org/_old_web/COGGC ... 02-1-2.htm

 

[DivineNames]

What I meant is that nowhere in my reading can I find any support for annihilationism. This belief comes from someone that has this idea and skews the bible to fit their view.

This is the kind of thing that I would expect from many Christians. Whatever the cause of all the different Bible interpretations, it certainly can't be that the Bible contributes to the problem... it can't be that the Bible is unclear.

:roll:

 

[DivineNames]

I do not see the ambiguity of the Scriptures as suggestive that God "did not do a very good job". Instead I question the reasonableness of the expectation that this richly complex world would be amenable to unambiguous codification in a 700 page book written over thousands of years by dozens (if not more) of authors.

If numerous authors were going to cause a problem, perhaps God should have used only one prophet to deliver his message?

My view, is that we should reasonably expect clear and consistent doctrine from the "word of God".

 

[gingercat]

Hi,

I would like to add that salvation and eternal life are wonderful things of course but I will be satisfied if I can just be put to death after this world.

I am not really after those wonderful things. I just want to do the right things for everyone, and I found Jesus is teaching me to do so. To me, those wonderful things God is promising is just byproducts.

I have been getting so many blessings because of His teachings: that's why I can evangelize every chance I get with all my might.

 

[Novum]

I would like to add that salvation and eternal life are wonderful things of course but I will be satisfied if I can just be put to death after this world.

Sounds good to me.

I am not really after those wonderful things. I just want to do the right things for everyone, and I found Jesus is teaching me to do so. To me, those wonderful things God is promising is just byproducts.

Also sounds good to me.

But, gingercat, what about the billions of nonchristians who also wants to do the right things for everyone? It is clear that Jesus is not required for people to have this desire, though he is certainly important to a certain segment of the world population.

I think you'll find that many nonchristians, including atheists like myself, desire the same things you do. But not everyone feels a need to for your Jesus in order to get there.

 

[gingercat]

I would like to add that salvation and eternal life are wonderful things of course but I will be satisfied if I can just be put to death after this world.

Sounds good to me.

I am not really after those wonderful things. I just want to do the right things for everyone, and I found Jesus is teaching me to do so. To me, those wonderful things God is promising is just byproducts.

Also sounds good to me.

But, gingercat, what about the billions of nonchristians who also wants to do the right things for everyone? It is clear that Jesus is not required for people to have this desire, though he is certainly important to a certain segment of the world population.

I think you'll find that many nonchristians, including atheists like myself, desire the same things you do. But not everyone feels a need to for your Jesus in order to get there.

I am from Japan:

People in Japan have decent morals and crime is very low compared to other countries. However Jesus' standard is even much higher than Japanese people. They try very hard to be noble people. (I would like to add that many, many people who are claiming to be Christians are not practicing what Jesus teaches)

 

[Novum]

I am from Japan:

People in Japan have decent morals and crime is very low compared to other countries. However Jesus' standard is even much higher than Japanese people. They try very hard to be noble people.

So what's wrong with them, then?

 

[gingercat]

I am from Japan:

People in Japan have decent morals and crime is very low compared to other countries. However Jesus' standard is even much higher than Japanese people. They try very hard to be noble people.

So what's wrong with them, then?

I am just saying that Jesus teachings are perfect. If they are Christians they can be even much more loving and righteous.

 

[Bilal]

I, Bilal, am here to convert y'all! :wink:

 

[gingercat]

I, Bilal, am here to convert y'all! :wink:

Do you have any migic word for non-believers?

 

[Sothenes]

I am from Japan:

People in Japan have decent morals and crime is very low compared to other countries. However Jesus' standard is even much higher than Japanese people. They try very hard to be noble people. (I would like to add that many, many people who are claiming to be Christians are not practicing what Jesus teaches)

I admire that and I have never been to Japan.

There are a lot of noble Americans but the reason a lot of them are righteous is because they are afraid of getting caught or they are concerned with what other people think of them.

Some of the locals around here are retired and they have the time to manicure their lawns. Their properties look great but the neighbors who have kids, homeschool and take care of a retarted and special needs child get all the viciousness, hate slander and gossip from the neighbor who keeps her property manicurred. Nobility before honesty means nothing to me. We are all people and all have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23-24). There is none righteous...no not one. There is none that doeth good. There is none that look to God.

 

[gingercat]

I am from Japan:

People in Japan have decent morals and crime is very low compared to other countries. However Jesus' standard is even much higher than Japanese people. They try very hard to be noble people. (I would like to add that many, many people who are claiming to be Christians are not practicing what Jesus teaches)

I admire that and I have never been to Japan.

There are a lot of noble Americans but the reason a lot of them are righteous is because they are afraid of getting caught or they are concerned with what other people think of them.

I don't see any connection your comments with mine. :-?

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

you would do well not to make fun of rezn. i have found that atheists often know the bible more than evangelicals. they also bring philosophy to the table. they may actually tend to be more intellectual than the evangelicals.

 

[Vic C.]

All nonessential posts on the last page or two have been deleted. They did nothing for the topic. Actually, I think this thread has run it's course. :-?

 

[gingercat]

Vic,

You don't want to continue this thread but I would like to add some more.


Non-believers;

Jesus never push Himself to anyone, period, and He does not tell His followers to do so either. But He commands us to spread about Him whole world and give everyone chance to follow Him.

The only way to know if He is telling the truth is to serve Him with all your might!

You cannot just read the Bible and understand God fully. I understand many, many people that they followed Him with wholeheartedly and concluded the Bible is lie.

I can confidently say that they are not telling the truth. I don't believe they were serving Him with all their might.

I just hope you are not and are going to be one of them.

thank you :angel: