Attention Athiest and non-Christians

[Novum]

Novum, I just said if you trust God in the Bible you will not leave Him. Faith is all about trust in God.

And I said that you are wrong. I know you are wrong because we have empirical evidence of millions of Christians that go against what you're claiming.

Please don't twist around what I said.

I never force anyone to talk to me and I never force you to do so.

What you are doing is malicious.

Lies, left unchallenged, tend to become accepted as truths. I am attempting to counteract your own malicious words on these forums.

 

[Guest]

Orion,

I would like to repeat myself.

I guess you did not believe God of the Bible. Faith is all about trust in God. If you really trusted God you would not have doubt about Him especially after reading the Bible and claiming to be a Christian for a long time.

Then, you are repeating untruths. Of COURSE I put my trust in God at that time. . . . and in a way, I still do. . . . . but not on the fundimentalistic level as people such as yourself. If you think you have God all figured out, . . . . . . then I will have to question your statement. If we are able to place God into the box that is The Bible, then God no longer can be God. God becomes a "human point of view". You may wish to place God in that box, . . . . I do not.

 

[Novum]

(this is ginger's 27 year old daughter), novum, it looks to me like you are using the wrong vocabulary word there, fundamentalism means those who believe in the literal use of the bible, the definition does not at all include "despite all real-world evidence to the contrary" as you state.

Yes it does include that.

A) There exists evidence for things in the real world that appear to contradict passages found in the bible.
B) Subject S, a fundamentalist, maintains a belief in the literal truth of the bible.

Therefore,

C) S holds a belief in the literal truth of the bible despite evidence to the contrary.

There are many testimonies of persecuted christians who died for their faith in God, tortured, etc, that claim God was still with them, still had hope for them, even in Nazi torture and etc (like Corrie Ten Boom, etc).

Certainly. But there are many more testimonies of persecuted christians who deconverted, or became Islam, or Buddhist, or Hindu. There are many further testimonies of those who were not "persecuted" as such but chose to deconvert anyway.

There is real-world evidence of God.

Such as?

 

[gingercat]

Then, you are repeating untruths. Of COURSE I put my trust in God at that time. . . . and in a way, I still do. . . . . but not on the fundimentalistic level as people such as yourself. If you think you have God all figured out, . . . . . . then I will have to question your statement. If we are able to place God into the box that is The Bible, then God no longer can be God. God becomes a "human point of view". You may wish to place God in that box, . . . . I do not.

I don't know how you can leave God. God in the Bible is perfect and such blessing. How can you turn around from Him. It is so strange.

 

[Guest]

I think a lot of people err in assuming that the "relationship" that one has with God is akin to the sort you have with friends, or lovers, or spouses. It's a personal relationship, in that it's between you and Him, but it's also a very different beast from what we commonly understand by the word "relationship."

Well, when relationships we normally have include what we have in our interactions with friends, lovers, or spouses, . . . then that's what we go on.

You don't come home at the end of the day and hear God asking you how work went. You don't discuss the latest movie with him. You don't get to trade jokes over the latest news headlines. It is, largely, a very one-sided relationship, because while you can talk to God all the live-long-day, God doesn't respond directly. He listens, but he doesn't just boom down an answer in divine baritone from above. He communicates with emotions. He will make you feel comforted, or grant you strength, or remove your fear. And... well, that's about it. If you want a companion, buy a dog. God isn't your buddy in the traditional sense, and you won't get to really interact with him on a personal level until you kick off and are resurrected by his side. Then you can trade knock-knock jokes. Until then, yes, you're going to find yourself doing all the talking.

A person who has no faith can experience comfort, gain strength, and may not be bound to the emotion of fear.

As I said, . . . . just knowing someone from a book doesn't mean you fully know that person. Same as I said to gingercat. If you've gained all your knowledge of God from a book written by various men thousands of years ago, . . . then you may not fully KNOW God, unless you believe that God is so easily placed inside a "protestant doctrine box".

 

[gingercat]

Novum, my daughter does not wish to continue with you. She understands my faith much more than what you are saying. she has been reading Bible and and has been faithful for 5 years and becoming stronger as time goes by.

 

[Guest]

I don't know how you can leave God. God in the Bible is perfect and such blessing. How can you turn around from Him. It is so strange.

Who says I did? I just don't hold to protestant doctrine, . . which states what they believe God to be.

 

[Novum]

I don't know how you can leave God. God in the Bible is perfect and such blessing. How can you turn around from Him. It is so strange.

Argument from incredulity. Just because you can't see how it's possible doesn't mean it's not possible.

Here's an entire website devoted to fundamentalists who have deconverted:
http://www.fundamentalists-anonymous.org/

Here's a link to a deconversion testimony on another website:
http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/ ... imony.html

This is far more common than you might think, ginger.

 

[Novum]

Novum, my daughter does not wish to continue with you. She understands my faith much more than what you are saying. she has been reading Bible and and has been faithful for 5 years and becoming stronger as time goes by.

Fair enough. Has she any comment on her apparently incorrect conceptualization of fundamentalism?

 

[gingercat]

Novum, my daughter does not wish to continue with you. She understands my faith much more than what you are saying. she has been reading Bible and and has been faithful for 5 years and becoming stronger as time goes by.

Fair enough. Has she any comment on her apparently incorrect conceptualization of fundamentalism?

She has read your comments to me and she doesn't think it is worth the time. sorry.

 

[Novum]

Novum, my daughter does not wish to continue with you. She understands my faith much more than what you are saying. she has been reading Bible and and has been faithful for 5 years and becoming stronger as time goes by.

Fair enough. Has she any comment on her apparently incorrect conceptualization of fundamentalism?

She has read your comments to me and she doesn't think it is worth the time. sorry.

How reassuring. :roll:

 

[sehad]

Just wondering if I could(from both sides of the argument here) get why you think the bible is inaccurate and why you think it is accruate(such as historical data and hard actual FACTS). I mean, if someone doesn't believe the bible is real, there really no point in showing them all the scriptures if they do not believe it!

 

[gingercat]

Just wondering if I could(from both sides of the argument here) get why you think the bible is inaccurate and why you think it is accruate(such as historical data and hard actual FACTS). I mean, if someone doesn't believe the bible is real, there really no point in showing them all the scriptures if they do not believe it!

This is a Christian forum and we speak from a Christian point of view.

 

[sehad]

Just wondering if I could(from both sides of the argument here) get why you think the bible is inaccurate and why you think it is accruate(such as historical data and hard actual FACTS). I mean, if someone doesn't believe the bible is real, there really no point in showing them all the scriptures if they do not believe it!

This is a Christian forum and we speak from a Christian point of view.

Not protesting or questioning this at all. Simply asking if someone told you that they didn't believe the bible(on this forum or not) how could you convince them the bible is indeed true?

 

[gingercat]

Not protesting or questioning this at all. Simply asking if someone told you that they didn't believe the bible(on this forum or not) how could you convince them the bible is indeed true?[/quote]

That's a good question but no one can convince anyone if one is not seeking God.

 

[Novum]

Just wondering if I could(from both sides of the argument here) get why you think the bible is inaccurate and why you think it is accruate(such as historical data and hard actual FACTS).

The bible appears to be filled with contradictions, demonstrates a wrathful god, has questionable moral messages, and so on. However, Christians on these forums would undoubtedly take issue with my findings (keep in mind they're subjective).

Even these Christians, however, must agree that - for whatever reason you care to assign - there has been a great fracturing and splintering of the Christian church. First it was split into Catholicism and Protestantism, then into many hundreds of further subdivisions. Some of these subdivisions preach and believe wildly different messages, many times in direct contradiction to another subdivision.

I can't help but think that an omnipotent, omniscient god would have done a better job. I question why he would let some of his believers get so far out of line, or why he would allow his believers to preach contradictory messages, or why he would even allow other religions to exist. He just seems to be doing a sloppy job.

I mean, if someone doesn't believe the bible is real, there really no point in showing them all the scriptures if they do not believe it!

Correct. Yet, unfortunately, that seems to be how many Christians evangelize to the "lost" - quoting scriptures and passages from the bible without establishing that the bible is accurate in the first place.

 

[sehad]

Just wondering if I could(from both sides of the argument here) get why you think the bible is inaccurate and why you think it is accruate(such as historical data and hard actual FACTS).

The bible appears to be filled with contradictions, demonstrates a wrathful god, has questionable moral messages, and so on. However, Christians on these forums would undoubtedly take issue with my findings (keep in mind they're subjective).



Even these Christians, however, must agree that - for whatever reason you care to assign - there has been a great fracturing and splintering of the Christian church. First it was split into Catholicism and Protestantism, then into many hundreds of further subdivisions. Some of these subdivisions preach and believe wildly different messages, many times in direct contradiction to another subdivision.

If you look at thsese splintering and fracturing that you mentioned, most of it was due to man not tolerating other men and their theologies if you will. And if you've read the bible, which I'm sure you have, it is not GOD, but man that has instituted these different religions and claim it to be in the name of GOD.

I can't help but think that an omnipotent, omniscient god would have done a better job. I question why he would let some of his believers get so far out of line, or why he would allow his believers to preach contradictory messages, or why he would even allow other religions to exist. He just seems to be doing a sloppy job.

As stated before, if the bible is true, then it is not GOD that instituted these different religions or lead his "followers" astray. The reason for the split and difference of religion and beliefs is due to HUMAN interpretation. Again, not GOD's fault that his "followers" interpret differently than other "followers". One of the "beauties" of Christianity is the free will that is allowed. His followers choose to follow him.

I mean, if someone doesn't believe the bible is real, there really no point in showing them all the scriptures if they do not believe it!

Correct. Yet, unfortunately, that seems to be how many Christians evangelize to the "lost" - quoting scriptures and passages from the bible without establishing that the bible is accurate in the first place.

This statement leads me to believe(along with your posts) that you don't believe the bible is true. I have sent you a PM and hopefully you will respond. I am a "Christian", and I use that loosly because of the number of people that claim to be Christians. But I am hungry, so to speak, for more. I've just accepted this all my life and I'm just wondering

 

[DivineNames]

Again, not GOD's fault that his "followers" interpret differently than other "followers".

It seems perfectly conceivable that a Deity could have done a far better job of making his message clear.

 

[sehad]

Again, not GOD's fault that his "followers" interpret differently than other "followers".

It seems perfectly conceivable that a Deity could have done a far better job of making his message clear.

I agree Divine, but consider the following:

And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


And he said unto them, Look on me, and do likewise

Two different scriptures from the bible not meant to be put together but if someone was to, you could see where it could lead to some problems. I do not blame GOD for man's different interpretations that cause strife.

Seondly, the bible was originally in what, Hebrew? There is only one word for Hell in the English language and that is Hell. In other languages it can be Gehenna, Hades, or Sheol. All of which are referenced to different places, but when translated into English, it only says Hell for all 3. You can see where the different translations could also cause confusion. This would not be GOD's fault would it?

 

[DivineNames]

Seondly, the bible was originally in what, Hebrew? There is only one word for Hell in the English language and that is Hell. In other languages it can be Gehenna, Hades, or Sheol. All of which are referenced to different places, but when translated into English, it only says Hell for all 3. You can see where the different translations could also cause confusion. This would not be GOD's fault would it?

You may be able to think up examples where God wouldn't be to blame for misunderstandings, but that doesn't change the fact that a Deity could presumably have made the Bible 10 times clearer than it actually is.