Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[awaken]

So again, I challenge anyone to show me a scripture where Paul was rebuking them for anything but being disorderly. And LOOK at all the scriptures in which Paul is ENCOURAGING them! How can anyone deny that?

And he did it so well...he rebuked in love...with encouragement!

It all comes back to knowing what Paul means by tongues. They have always been what they were in Acts. They are other languages. Unless one reads the scripture with that in mind, they will not be able to read them as they were written. I'll just leave it at that. :nod

See..this is where we agree..I believe they are languages!
known languages! but languages the speaker himself does not know!

An unbeliever can speak and learn a known language..so what is supernatural about that?
But for someone to speak a language he has never learned..now that is supernatural!

 

[Dave...]

Dave, I don't know if I want to even justify your comments with a response. Theos is the ONLY word used in the NT for God, and Kurios for Lord. So to say that Paul was implying they were praying to false gods is ridiculous. Your post is a clear case of the traditions of men. Using human reasoning to interpret scripture instead of letting scripture interpret scripture and letting the Holy Ghost to reveal it to you.

From J-Mac...

All spiritual gifts are given for the purpose of ministering (or speaking) to men. No spiritual gift was ever given for the purpose of ministering to God. All spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ by ministering to the members of the body. God doesn't need us to minister a spiritual gift to Him--He's not incomplete!...the word "God" (in verse 2) does not have an article in the Greek (the anarthrous construction). And because of the context, I think it's better translated "a god" rather than referring to the true God."

Also see Acts 17

Now here Paul is saying, desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, he said I would that ye all spake with tongues. He says that prophecy is better than tongues except when there is someone there to interpret the tongues. Paul says he himself prays with tongues "in the spririt" and prays with his understanding also. He SINGS in the spirit (tongues) and sings with his understanding also. Sounds quite clear that Paul is all for speaking with tongues.

He didn't literally wish that they all spoke in tongues, that would be contrary to the will of God, as I've already noted. Prophecy was better than tongues, agreed there. Praying in the spirit, and singing in the spirit, is not tongues. Paul here is speaking of our spirit, not the *Holy Spirit.

Praying in the *Spirit simply means to pray according to God's will, hence "by the *Spirit", and not the flesh. We should understand that when we see verses such as Jude 1:20, and Ephesians 6:18-20.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that praying in the [Holy] Spirit has anything to do with tongues.

1COR 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels (and ANGELS, tongues are not only known languages but unknown heavenly languages.)

The word unkown was not added to that verse by the translaters. There is no angelic language.

Clearly when that which is perfect has come is speaking of the redemption of our bodies, because he says I will see FACE to FACE, and will KNOW even as I am KNOWN. Who is he known by? Christ. Who will he know as he is known? Christ, who he will see face to face.

faith, I never said that I disagreed with your definition of the perfect. I actually agree with you there. However, I disagree with you in your claims that tongues will "cease" when the perfect comes.

If you read the entirety of these scriptures I have quoted, it is crystal clear he is ENCOURAGING them to speak with tongues as well as operate in the other gifts. The only thing he rebukes them for is being disorderly. THAT'S IT. Show me where he rebukes them for anything else.

I have been, faith, you just don't reply to those parts of my posts.

Also, I KNOW where my pastor stands on the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is all for it, I have received the infillng of the Holy Ghost, and many in our congregation operate in both sign and non-sign gifts. We "feel good" in praise and worship because God inhabits the praises of His people. But our pastor's message is one of self-denial and obedience to Christ.

My point was that if your pastor is charismatic, he probably doesn't agree with you that the receiving of the Holy spirit upon our initial faith is the baptism with the Holy Spirit. He would most likely be in the "second blessing" camp.

Dave

 

[jasoncran]

most charismatic believe in the second blessing type, ie you ask for the holy spirit in dwelling.

 

[faithtransforms]

Dave...

It is strange reading your notes on this...it is like I dug my old notes from previous teachings. The way I use to believe...

One thing I have learned coming from both sides of this...
When I believed the manifestations of the Holy Spirit had ceased..because man taught this to me. NO one could convince me otherwise! My notes looked a lot like yours.

Now that I have embraced the truth about the baptism of the Holy Spirit..and the manifestations that come with it...no one can convince me to go back and believe the way you do now. I went to the Holy Spirit to teach me the truth...He is a much better teacher than any man!

Another thing I have noticed on most of the forums I am on...neither side is convinced to change there stand! Not until the Holy Spirit reveals it!

How can you say his post was prideful? Glorydaz, you are way off base. I will pray discerment for you because awaken's post was not the slightest bit condescending or prideful.

This sounds like you believe you have reached a higher degree of faith than those who disagree with you. You're wrong. It's amazing how many times I hear the same thing..."I used to believe as you do". God is not the author of confusion but man is able to confuse himself very well. This is exactly what I see in your case. It more than hints of pride, and that is never a good thing, and it is never from the Holy Spirit. Dave spoke a word of wisdom and I'd suggest you do more than dismiss it out of hand because of your "experience". We are never to be led by our "experiences", but by the Word of God. You dismissed the truth and insist on listening to what you "feel" is correct. That should be a clue right there.

How can you say his post was prideful? Glorydaz, you are way off base on this. I will pray discernment for you. There was nothing the least bit condescending or prideful in awaken's post.

 

[faithtransforms]

So again, I challenge anyone to show me a scripture where Paul was rebuking them for anything but being disorderly. And LOOK at all the scriptures in which Paul is ENCOURAGING them! How can anyone deny that?

And he did it so well...he rebuked in love...with encouragement!

It all comes back to knowing what Paul means by tongues. They have always been what they were in Acts. They are other languages. Unless one reads the scripture with that in mind, they will not be able to read them as they were written. I'll just leave it at that. :nod

Then how on earth do you explain that Paul says he prays with the tongues of men and ANGELS???!!! Tongues can be known languages, and they can be heavenly languages. I mean how much more obvious does it get? He said in Corinthians that when they were praying in tongues, they were praying in tongues which no man understandeth! No man means no man. Period. No man on earth understands it because it is a heavenly language. How could they speak mysteries in the spirit unto God in, say, Chinese? That doesn't make the least bit of sense.

 

[jasoncran]

quit while you ahead :headbomb

burrrpp hmm pizza with pepsi most nutrious. dinner of the champions of the faith in the book of hebrews.

 

[faithtransforms]

Yes, perfect can mean mature, but you can see that the first definitions for the word in Strongs mean "perfect", as in "without flaw", not mature.

8 Charity never faileth : but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail ; whether there be tongues, they shall cease ; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away .
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come , then that which is in part shall be done away . 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly *; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known .

Clearly when that which is perfect has come is speaking of the redemption of our bodies, because he says I will see FACE to FACE, and will KNOW even as I am KNOWN. Who is he known by? Christ. Who will he know as he is known? Christ, who he will see face to face.

If you read the entirety of these scriptures I have quoted, it is crystal clear he is ENCOURAGING them to speak with tongues as well as operate in the other gifts. The only thing he rebukes them for is being disorderly. THAT'S IT. Show me where he rebukes them for anything else.

Also, I KNOW where my pastor stands on the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is all for it, I have received the infillng of the Holy Ghost, and many in our congregation operate in both sign and non-sign gifts. We "feel good" in praise and worship because God inhabits the praises of His people. But our pastor's message is one of self-denial and obedience to Christ.

You speak about traditions of men and then you go on to prove that's exactly what you're following.
You go to Strongs to gain your understanding. How about reading the Word to gain your understanding. Pay special attention to the part about being a child and speaking as a child...that is talking about moving from immaturity to maturity. That is not speaking of the redemption of our bodies. "To know Him"...that is an achievable goal here on this earth.

Here we see what Paul means when he uses the term "perfect".
He's speaking of maturity...maturing in holiness.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Maturing for the work of the ministry.
[quote="Ephesians 4:12":3rk6fiel]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

“Perfection†here means “maturityâ€, and it would be good to simply remember that whenever we see the word “perfect†used in this context we should think “spiritually matureâ€. Perfecting of the saints means the maturing of the saints...the process that brings the saints out of spiritual immaturity into spiritual adulthood. We are to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord".

Paul explains that he has neither attained, nor is he already perfect (Philippians 3:12). Clearly he expects to be perfect one day, but he has not yet attained. But to what is he attaining to? Sinless perfection? No. He is striving for spiritual maturity...an intimate, fully-developed relationship with Jesus Christ (“to know Himâ€). Then he says everyone who is perfect (that is, spiritually mature), will be like-minded in their pursuit of knowing Christ.[/quote:3rk6fiel]

Glorydaz, I fear for you. You are accusatory and your interpretation of anyone's post who doesn't agree with you are SO OFF BASE!!! I go to the Word EVERY DAY for my understanding. You're going to attack me for using Strong's? Can you be SERIOUS? Like I have said before, I am no babe in the Word, I know the OT pretty darn well, but I know the NT like the back of my hand. Having read it through at least 10 or more times (probably more than that, at some point you lose count) and some books, especially Paul's epistles, I have probably read 50 or more times AT LEAST!!!

I interpret the Word differently than you do, period. I see the scriptures you have pointed out, and I agree "perfect" generally means mature. But don't you think Paul was pretty mature at the time he wrote that epistle to the Corinthians? No, he had not attained, but he PRAISED GOD that he spoke with tongues more than them all. How can you be so blind? READ the following scriptures!!!

1COR 14
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied : for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret , that the church may receive edifying
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth , but my understanding is unfruitful (he is praying with his SPIRIT while speaking in tongues). It is a prayer language.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Now here Paul is saying, desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, he said I would that ye all spake with tongues. He says that prophecy is better than tongues except when there is someone there to interpret the tongues. Paul says he himself prays with tongues "in the spririt" and prays with his understanding also. He SINGS in the spirit (tongues) and sings with his understanding also. He says he thanks his God that he speaks with tongues more than them all. Sounds quite clear that Paul is all for speaking with tongues. And was he not pretty mature at the time?

Are saying Paul doesn’t actually WANT them to speak in tongues, he just happens to say it for, ummm, what reason?

 

[faithtransforms]

Glorydaz,

Also, it is crystal clear that Paul is saying that when he prays in tongues, his SPIRIT prays. Do you not see this?

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth , but my understanding is unfruitful (he is praying with his SPIRIT while speaking in tongues). It is a prayer language.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[faithtransforms]

Dave, I don't know if I want to even justify your comments with a response. Theos is the ONLY word used in the NT for God, and Kurios for Lord. So to say that Paul was implying they were praying to false gods is ridiculous. Your post is a clear case of the traditions of men. Using human reasoning to interpret scripture instead of letting scripture interpret scripture and letting the Holy Ghost to reveal it to you.

From J-Mac...

All spiritual gifts are given for the purpose of ministering (or speaking) to men. No spiritual gift was ever given for the purpose of ministering to God. All spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ by ministering to the members of the body. God doesn't need us to minister a spiritual gift to Him--He's not incomplete!...the word "God" (in verse 2) does not have an article in the Greek (the anarthrous construction). And because of the context, I think it's better translated "a god" rather than referring to the true God."

Also see Acts 17

Now here Paul is saying, desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, he said I would that ye all spake with tongues. He says that prophecy is better than tongues except when there is someone there to interpret the tongues. Paul says he himself prays with tongues "in the spririt" and prays with his understanding also. He SINGS in the spirit (tongues) and sings with his understanding also. Sounds quite clear that Paul is all for speaking with tongues.

He didn't literally wish that they all spoke in tongues, that would be contrary to the will of God, as I've already noted. Prophecy was better than tongues, agreed there. Praying in the spirit, and singing in the spirit, is not tongues. Paul here is speaking of our spirit, not the *Holy Spirit.

Praying in the *Spirit simply means to pray according to God's will, hence "by the *Spirit", and not the flesh. We should understand that when we see verses such as Jude 1:20, and Ephesians 6:18-20.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that praying in the [Holy] Spirit has anything to do with tongues.

[quote:2evo0w5w]1COR 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels (and ANGELS, tongues are not only known languages but unknown heavenly languages.)

The word unkown was not added to that verse by the translaters. There is no angelic language.

Clearly when that which is perfect has come is speaking of the redemption of our bodies, because he says I will see FACE to FACE, and will KNOW even as I am KNOWN. Who is he known by? Christ. Who will he know as he is known? Christ, who he will see face to face.

faith, I never said that I disagreed with your definition of the perfect. I actually agree with you there. However, I disagree with you in your claims that tongues will "cease" when the perfect comes.

If you read the entirety of these scriptures I have quoted, it is crystal clear he is ENCOURAGING them to speak with tongues as well as operate in the other gifts. The only thing he rebukes them for is being disorderly. THAT'S IT. Show me where he rebukes them for anything else.

I have been, faith, you just don't reply to those parts of my posts.

Also, I KNOW where my pastor stands on the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is all for it, I have received the infillng of the Holy Ghost, and many in our congregation operate in both sign and non-sign gifts. We "feel good" in praise and worship because God inhabits the praises of His people. But our pastor's message is one of self-denial and obedience to Christ.

My point was that if your pastor is charismatic, he probably doesn't agree with you that the receiving of the Holy spirit upon our initial faith is the baptism with the Holy Spirit. He would most likely be in the "second blessing" camp.

Dave[/quote:2evo0w5w]


Maybe I am missing something Dave, but I haven't noticed in any of your posts SCRIPTURE that indicates he was rebuking them for anything but being disorderly. Just a lot of explaining of what you think. If you have quoted scripture to that effect, could you please post it again? I don't need all the explanation, just the scripture, then we can debate the point. Thanks

 

[faithtransforms]

quit while you ahead :headbomb

burrrpp hmm pizza with pepsi most nutrious. dinner of the champions of the faith in the book of hebrews.

LOL...I just had pizza for dinner myself!

 

[glorydaz]

It all comes back to knowing what Paul means by tongues. They have always been what they were in Acts. They are other languages. Unless one reads the scripture with that in mind, they will not be able to read them as they were written. I'll just leave it at that. :nod

See..this is where we agree..I believe they are languages!
known languages! but languages the speaker himself does not know!

An unbeliever can speak and learn a known language..so what is supernatural about that?
But for someone to speak a language he has never learned..now that is supernatural!

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. So the tongues that are spoken today by many in the Pentecostal church are what language? No language on the face of this planet, I can guarantee you that. What we saw at Pentecost was a miracle. Jews from all over heard the Word preached in their own language...the Jews required a sign and they got one.

I am affiliated with a missions church. We have missionaries in many foreign countries. The Lord raises up brothers and sister who live among the people of that country. They find someone from that country to interpret the message they bring. They don't miraculously speak in a language they haven't learned. That sign gift has ceased. We no longer have Peter and Paul walking the countryside performing signs and wonders. Those signs followed the Apostles as a confirmation of the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. God still heals....but we don't have "healers". Tongues are exactly the same. They were for a time and a season.

 

[glorydaz]

How can you say his post was prideful? Glorydaz, you are way off base on this. I will pray discernment for you. There was nothing the least bit condescending or prideful in awaken's post.

I'm sorry, but I do have to chuckle at this one. How about I use it on you and see what you think?

I was where you are once, faithtransforms, but I grew into maturity. I used to be a child and spoke childish things. I may have even offered to pray for someone because they spoke their mind and I didn't like what they said.

A sure sign of an immature Christian is when they say they will pray for someone to have discernment.
It has a built in judgmentalism for all to see. :yes

 

[glorydaz]

Then how on earth do you explain that Paul says he prays with the tongues of men and ANGELS???!!! Tongues can be known languages, and they can be heavenly languages. I mean how much more obvious does it get? He said in Corinthians that when they were praying in tongues, they were praying in tongues which no man understandeth! No man means no man. Period. No man on earth understands it because it is a heavenly language. How could they speak mysteries in the spirit unto God in, say, Chinese? That doesn't make the least bit of sense.

Again, you're misunderstanding what Paul is saying. He's using hyperbole to emphasise his argument.
He does the same thing here...certainly not implying an angel will come and preach another gospel. He is saying...even if an angel were to preach a different gospel, there would be no validity in it, and he would fall victim to divine wrath.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul is saying that even if one could ascend to a new height, and communicate on the level of angels, if he did not exercise love by speaking in an understandable fashion, he still would be nothing but a distracting noise. The apostle’s argument does not hint of a mysterious, unintelligible utterance; in fact, it reflects just the opposite.

And these carnal believers were speaking gibberish...which is why no man could understand them. They'd gotten that from their pagan background which is exactly why he is admonishing them.

Just look how many times Paul speaks of shame to this Corinthian church.
And these are not the half of how he admonishes them.

1 Corinthians 4:14 - I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

1 Corinthians 6:5 - I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

1 Corinthians 11:6 - For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Corinthians 11:14 - Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

1 Corinthians 11:22 - What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

 

[glorydaz]

no one is at the level of completion while on this earth. we all are lacking. paul talked about hold fast to attain that prize and he hadnt attained that yet. what was the prize? salvation? no. perfection in christ.

It isn't perfection...it's maturity. It's the perfecting of the saints...going on to be able to digest the meat of the Word. I have given many verses that make it abundantly clear that maturity is in mind when Paul uses the term perfect. Some will take that to mean sinless. We won't be sinless without Christ's righteousness being imparted to us, because we will still sin. Paul is speaking of maturity....if you read the verses, you will see they aren't speaking of our future glory, but of our present walk.

 

[glorydaz]

Also, everyone was raised in a different way and came to the Lord in a different way. If when you came to the Lord you had already developed discipline in your life and were not involved in any serious sin, it will be easier to crucify the flesh than someone who came to Christ with serious sins of the flesh. Now sometimes, when you come to Christ, God will instantly heal you of some or all of those sins, as He did me with the sin of bisexuality and a foul mouth.

However, I was raised in a discipline free atmosphere and when I came to Christ, I didn't have the least BIT of self discipline. I was a compulsive overeater, and yes, I believe that to be sin. It took almost 5 years to get delivered of that. So it was a sin I had to keep confessing over and over to God (and was under the heavy weight of condemnation because I didn't know how to stand up to the devil back then). I developed emotional overeating as a result of childhood abuse, so it was very difficult to let it go. It had been what I thought "protected" me for so long. God HAS delivered me, although it still happens occasionally. But back when I was struggling and I really wanted that chocolate because I was depressed or sad, it was really hard to deny my flesh and it hurt. But with each little victory, there was great joy!

Yes, I see what you're saying, now. I took it wrong...thanks for the explanation.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz, I fear for you. You are accusatory and your interpretation of anyone's post who doesn't agree with you are SO OFF BASE!!! I go to the Word EVERY DAY for my understanding. You're going to attack me for using Strong's? Can you be SERIOUS? Like I have said before, I am no babe in the Word, I know the OT pretty darn well, but I know the NT like the back of my hand. Having read it through at least 10 or more times (probably more than that, at some point you lose count) and some books, especially Paul's epistles, I have probably read 50 or more times AT LEAST!!!

I interpret the Word differently than you do, period. I see the scriptures you have pointed out, and I agree "perfect" generally means mature. But don't you think Paul was pretty mature at the time he wrote that epistle to the Corinthians? No, he had not attained, but he PRAISED GOD that he spoke with tongues more than them all. How can you be so blind? READ the following scriptures!!!

1COR 14
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied : for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret , that the church may receive edifying
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth , but my understanding is unfruitful (he is praying with his SPIRIT while speaking in tongues). It is a prayer language.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Now here Paul is saying, desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, he said I would that ye all spake with tongues. He says that prophecy is better than tongues except when there is someone there to interpret the tongues. Paul says he himself prays with tongues "in the spririt" and prays with his understanding also. He SINGS in the spirit (tongues) and sings with his understanding also. He says he thanks his God that he speaks with tongues more than them all. Sounds quite clear that Paul is all for speaking with tongues. And was he not pretty mature at the time?

Are saying Paul doesn’t actually WANT them to speak in tongues, he just happens to say it for, ummm, what reason?

You fear for me? That's very interesting. You really can't take someone seeing the Word contrary to your understanding. If it makes you feel better to call me "blind" then I have to wonder if you have taken the Word you've read so many times to heart. Dave has patiently explained what Paul is saying, and I have tried to show you the same thing. I suggest you have your mind set on what Paul is saying and simply can not see where he is admonishing this Corinthian church. Since you don't see that tongues are nothing more than a different language of men, and you don't see that we all pray "in the Spirit" with our understanding then you will forever be confused on this issue.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz,

Also, it is crystal clear that Paul is saying that when he prays in tongues, his SPIRIT prays. Do you not see this?

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth , but my understanding is unfruitful (he is praying with his SPIRIT while speaking in tongues). It is a prayer language.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Why do you think Paul says, "What is it then?" You do know that man has his own spirit, don't you? He is not talking about praying in the Holy Spirit...at all. That is why he says to pray with the understanding and to sing with the understanding.

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

The Spirit of God gives understanding to man....

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Praying in the Spirit is praying in harmony with the will of God. God is not the author of confusion and the Holy Spirit interprets our prayers to the Father for we often do not know how to pray as we ought.

 

[Mysteryman]

How can you say his post was prideful? Glorydaz, you are way off base on this. I will pray discernment for you. There was nothing the least bit condescending or prideful in awaken's post.

I'm sorry, but I do have to chuckle at this one. How about I use it on you and see what you think?

I was where you are once, faithtransforms, but I grew into maturity. I used to be a child and spoke childish things. I may have even offered to pray for someone because they spoke their mind and I didn't like what they said.

A sure sign of an immature Christian is when they say they will pray for someone to have discernment.
It has a built in judgmentalism for all to see. :yes

These comments show immaturity (babe) :yes

And it is childish to continue to tell everyone that 'you' are mature. My five year old grandchild does the same, as if she wants to be 16 instead of 5.

Two things biblically that shows one to be a babe. 1. unskilled in the scriptures 2 walking carnally instead of spiritually < It can be one or the other, or both.

 

[jasoncran]

watch the personal attacks. all parties, if one cant say it love or must vent at the person offending you then do so via pm.

 

[Mysteryman]

Glorydaz, I fear for you. You are accusatory and your interpretation of anyone's post who doesn't agree with you are SO OFF BASE!!! I go to the Word EVERY DAY for my understanding. You're going to attack me for using Strong's? Can you be SERIOUS? Like I have said before, I am no babe in the Word, I know the OT pretty darn well, but I know the NT like the back of my hand. Having read it through at least 10 or more times (probably more than that, at some point you lose count) and some books, especially Paul's epistles, I have probably read 50 or more times AT LEAST!!!

I interpret the Word differently than you do, period. I see the scriptures you have pointed out, and I agree "perfect" generally means mature. But don't you think Paul was pretty mature at the time he wrote that epistle to the Corinthians? No, he had not attained, but he PRAISED GOD that he spoke with tongues more than them all. How can you be so blind? READ the following scriptures!!!

1COR 14
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied : for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret , that the church may receive edifying
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth , but my understanding is unfruitful (he is praying with his SPIRIT while speaking in tongues). It is a prayer language.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Now here Paul is saying, desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, he said I would that ye all spake with tongues. He says that prophecy is better than tongues except when there is someone there to interpret the tongues. Paul says he himself prays with tongues "in the spririt" and prays with his understanding also. He SINGS in the spirit (tongues) and sings with his understanding also. He says he thanks his God that he speaks with tongues more than them all. Sounds quite clear that Paul is all for speaking with tongues. And was he not pretty mature at the time?

Are saying Paul doesn’t actually WANT them to speak in tongues, he just happens to say it for, ummm, what reason?

You fear for me? That's very interesting. You really can't take someone seeing the Word contrary to your understanding. If it makes you feel better to call me "blind" then I have to wonder if you have taken the Word you've read so many times to heart. Dave has patiently explained what Paul is saying, and I have tried to show you the same thing. I suggest you have your mind set on what Paul is saying and simply can not see where he is admonishing this Corinthian church. Since you don't see that tongues are nothing more than a different language of men, and you don't see that we all pray "in the Spirit" with our understanding then you will forever be confused on this issue.

HI

Tongues can be of men or of angels, and tongues is not gibberish !