dirtfarmer
Member
hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here
No, no one fully comprehends the "Spirit" prior to salvation, nor do we fully comprehend after salvation either.
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation
- Thread starter godsquadgeek
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hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here
No, no one fully comprehends the "Spirit" prior to salvation, nor do we fully comprehend after salvation either.
godsquadgeek
Member
but can someone be saved if they don't comprehend the spirit? Which is what you said earlier?
dirtfarmer
Member
hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here
In what post did I say that a person can't be saved without comprehending the (s)pirit( should be a capital S)
ezra
Member
the spirit must draw..a lost man may not fully understand.. but with out the holy spirit. you have a spiritual miscarriage. i can also say beyond and shadow if doubt . i was told its NOW or never. the night i got saved. that was GOD speaking through the Holy Spirit
godsquadgeek
Member
So one does not need to know about the Holy Spirit to be saved in your opinion? If so I agree. I believe the Holy Spirit does not testify of Himself. But rather points to Jesus. John 15:26 But I was curious to ask you, do you believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, or do you believe they ceased in time past?
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ezra
Member
i have yet to see where the gifts of the spirit no longer exist ..but it is a gift and it is given by the spirit. not everyone will have the same gifts
dirtfarmer
Member
hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here
I agree that the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus. It is the Spirit that brings conviction when the word is preached.
Am I one that believes that there are gifts that have ended? yes. I have explained before that tongues, languages unknown to the speaker but understood by the hearers, are not necessary today. They were a sign to the Jewish congregations that God was bringing the Gentiles and Jews together in the body of Christ.
It is my belief that the Spirit reveals to our spirit that we are children of God, whether we are Jews or Gentiles. The one gift that will endure for ever is love. 1 Corinthians 13:8 tells us this. Also in 1 Corinthians 13:13 it is stated the remaining gifts: " And now abideth faith, hope, and charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
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godsquadgeek
Member
Edited
But almost all pentecostals believe
: 1 Cor.14:2: “For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him;… He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.”
Ron Rhodes is a light dispensationalist who believes in tongues:
http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp35.htm
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I do not want this in a bad way, but I may repeat this till you supply a scripture to support your statements.
John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That scripture above says the father draws. No man comes to Jesus
Except
The Father draw him
If you have scriptures to say the Holy Spirit draws, then just post them. Often our traditions undo the word of God.
Redneck
Eddif
ezra
Member
how does the father WORK ??????????? through the Holy spirit ..its a spiritual Birth john 3 Romans 8: 16 The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children,.
if you want to repeat this be my guest ....i simply do not have time for gnat straining
11. And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead His Spirit who lives in you.then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life through His Spirit who lives in you. might i add the spirit quickens gives us life .unless you have a different Bible
Hi DF, FG here.
Rom 8:16 - The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
The immediate context is about prayer. So when one of God's children prays, the Holy Spirit testifies to God that we are His.
The Father worked / works through John the Baptist.
The Father gave Jesus authority.
Matthew 3:11 KJV
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The Father sent John the Baptist (through repentance we need a savior)
Jesus works ( that we might have eternal life). Jesus baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire. (That we might have power)
The Holy Spirit gives power that we might be a witness. (The gifts are to benefit others mostly)
A gnat seems small till you get one under an eyelid, and you go basically blind for a few minutes.
The Godhead is in agreement. Different people with works for each (?).
I am really hopefully helping.
eddif
The Father gave Jesus authority.
Matthew 3:11 KJV
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The Father sent John the Baptist (through repentance we need a savior)
Jesus works ( that we might have eternal life). Jesus baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire. (That we might have power)
The Holy Spirit gives power that we might be a witness. (The gifts are to benefit others mostly)
A gnat seems small till you get one under an eyelid, and you go basically blind for a few minutes.
The Godhead is in agreement. Different people with works for each (?).
I am really hopefully helping.
eddif
I tend to agree that because the Holy Spirit is active that he created the work.
EDIT I tend to agree that the Holy Spirit is active in us, but that does not mean he is the source that created the work.
Acts 2:11 English Standard Version
both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
There were converts while Jews were scattered in foreign nations. This is not the new birth, but it is not about genetics either.
We do see through a glass darkly.
eddif
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godsquadgeek
Member
Any time I desire. "The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet" 1 Cor 14:32. As long as it's in my private prayer language. If in public it should have an interpreter. When one lady at a afterglow heard another speak in tongues she recognized the tongues as praising God in aristocratic french, even though the lady didn't speak french. The lady that interpreted, wanted to be saved emmediately. Samething with another girl and her mother, who went to an afterglow and the daughter thought she was healed by God, and then her mom jabbed her with a nail file in her back to test if she was healed and she could feel pain, before.she was numb. The mother wanted to be saved emmediately. Now could these demon possessions really produce salvation? If as you say these are not legitimate, why then was there fruit?
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LovethroughDove
Member
I understand you.
I said:
"Would you be willing to describe when and where you speak in tongues? The circumstances."
I'm sure there's stories on both sides of the issue, so I'll tell you one I heard. A missionary to a 3rd world country (I don't remember which one) was at a church meeting where someone "spoke in tongues". The only problem was that the missionary actually understood what was being said, while no one else in that meeting did. What the missionary heard was vile blasphemies against God.
Those who believe the gift of tongues has ceased look to 1 Cor 13:8 - Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
A number of English translations use "cease" vice "stilled". Certainly human language isn't going to cease. But the gift will.
These same people also look to the fact that the "miracle gifts", such as healing, miracles, as well as tongues were necessary for the new church, to provide validation of God's power.
"Would you be willing to describe when and where you speak in tongues? The circumstances."
So, the circumstance is private prayer then? Do you understand what you're praying?
Yes, that's what Paul said. So, the circumstances is public prayer?
I never said anything about demon possession.
I never said anything about not being legitimate. My only point is that any speaking in tongues must follow the rules as laid down by Paul in 1 Cor 14, which, from my experience, isn't the case at all in those churches where tongues is spoken.
I'm sure there's stories on both sides of the issue, so I'll tell you one I heard. A missionary to a 3rd world country (I don't remember which one) was at a church meeting where someone "spoke in tongues". The only problem was that the missionary actually understood what was being said, while no one else in that meeting did. What the missionary heard was vile blasphemies against God.
Those who believe the gift of tongues has ceased look to 1 Cor 13:8 - Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
A number of English translations use "cease" vice "stilled". Certainly human language isn't going to cease. But the gift will.
These same people also look to the fact that the "miracle gifts", such as healing, miracles, as well as tongues were necessary for the new church, to provide validation of God's power.
godsquadgeek
Member
so then you believe in the gift of tongues? Yes you can use it in your prayer language, like paul did when he said " I speak in tongues more than you all." He does not mention an interpreter. 1 Cor 14:18. And I agree that many uses of the gift of tongues is false. Some of it is social psychological manipulation other times they are demon possessed. So it's not an assurance of salvation. Love according to 1 john is the way to tell if you are saved. And if you confess Jesus as Lord. But I have never seen either case above as far as false tongues in a situation that bears fruit. Or the enemy is stepping on his own toes, working against himself. One thing satan is not, is unwise.
ezra
Member
ok i see your a member of the sacred golden cow glee club if the Holy spirit is not in salvation then i will give up the ministry..which i have no plans of..
That's not what I indicated. I believe 1 Cor 13:8 indicates that the gift of tongues was no longer necessary after the transition to the church age.
My prayer language is English. Which is the only language I speak.
Let's look at the chapter:
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?
In v.1,4,5, and 6 he elevates the gift of prophecy over other gifts of the Spirit.
9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
The gifts that are important are those that build up the church, which tongues do not.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
I hate it when my mind is "unfruitful".
19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
This is clear. Pau's emphasis was to instruct (teach) others.
I was hoping for an answer to my question about interpreters, or if you just pray in tongues. When you pray in a tongue, do you understand what you are praying?
I think v.5 sums the issue up pretty well. "5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. "
I have never met a believer who has said, "The gifts of the Spirit have ceased." The signs and wonders gifts have ceased. The Church lives by faith and the unseen. The folks who think that sign and wonder gifts still apply........Have CEASED/QUENCHED the REAL gift's of the Spirit that they have.
Ironic IMO. Speaking in tongues has only psychological 'proof' and experience 'proof."
Doctrine does not need to 'distort' a host of people to prove them wrong. Truth is just, well, truth. But false doctrine needs to psychologically distort folks personally, because they CAN'T use scripture to prove their 'experience.'