Baptism

[Corn Pop]

Faith is belief, its beliving in things not seen. Hope and trust.

Why are some people so obssesed with baptism like water saves people?.

Christ saves lives, not water. Abraham believed God, he believed God would deliever through Christ even he did not see it he believed God and thats faith and he was credited with righteousness.

The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him, he was down and had no one else to turn to for comfort and support but Christ, he decided to believe and put his hope and trust in Christs hands, and Christ credited him with righteousness for having that faith, he didnt get dunked in water or eat a slice of bread.

Water baptisim is good its a good thing, but its not needed to be saved and sometimes people freak out they not baptised in water and question there faith and if they saved. Our belief is not in a river of water, its in God alone.


Christ is the living water, he is the bread of life, faith in Christ is more important and more worthy than believing being dunked in some water saves lives.

 

[Mungo]

Faith is belief, its beliving in things not seen. Hope and trust.

Why are some people so obssesed with baptism like water saves people?.

Christ saves lives, not water. Abraham believed God, he believed God would deliever through Christ even he did not see it he believed God and thats faith and he was credited with righteousness.

The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him, he was down and had no one else to turn to for comfort and support but Christ, he decided to believe and put his hope and trust in Christs hands, and Christ credited him with righteousness for having that faith, he didnt get dunked in water or eat a slice of bread.

Water baptisim is good its a good thing, but its not needed to be saved and sometimes people freak out they not baptised in water and question there faith and if they saved. Our belief is not in a river of water, its in God alone.


Christ is the living water, he is the bread of life, faith in Christ is more important and more worthy than believing being dunked in some water saves lives.

I answered your question in post #2 but you just seem to have ignored it.
Also see post #8

 

[Tenchi]

Not just some, but the overwhelming majority of Christians, believe that they are saved in water baptism.

Argumentum ad populum - a logical fallacy.

They got this idea because it was what Jesus taught. It has abundant support from scripture and was practiced by the early church and to this day by the majority of Christians.

No, they got this idea from the RC church that wanted to position itself as crucial to the individual believer's relationship with God. What better way than to make a relationship with God contingent upon baptism which only the RC church is authorized to perform. Nifty how that works out, eh? But not biblical.

Verses that explicitly say baptism save us:
1. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved (Mk 16:16)

2. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, (1Pet 3:21)

3. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. ……. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. (Acts 2:41….47)

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

As so many verses in Scripture do, this verse emphasizes the priority of belief over all else in being saved. Baptism is merely an outward reflection of an inward change, the fruit of belief that saves, not the means of one's salvation. This is made particularly clear by the ending of the verse that emphasizes belief only, not baptism, as crucial to avoiding God's condemnation. I don't see, then, that this first does anything to help the Roman Catholic salvation-by-baptism idea.

1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The baptism in view here is a spiritual one, performed by the Holy Spirit, whereby a lost person is "baptized into Christ," receiving from the Spirit the "washing of regeneration" and spiritual "renewal" and thereby made a "new creature in Christ."

Romans 6:3
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Titus 3:5-6
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Christ is the "Ark" in whom the born-again believer is placed (vs. 18) and kept eternally safe from the judgment of God, as Noah and his family in the Ark were kept safe from God's judgment in the days of the Great Flood. As Peter explained, water baptism isn't about external cleansing (vs. 21), but is "an appeal to God for a good conscience," that is, water baptism provides an opportunity for a new convert to declare their "good conscience" toward God, their fidelity to Christ as a new creature in him, as Peter appeared to imply was the common practice in the Early Church during water baptism.

In light of these things, the passage from 1 Peter 3 doesn't look to me to help a salvation-by-baptism perspective, either.

Acts 2:41
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

What did Luke mean by "received his word"? Obviously, he meant by "received" that those who had heard Peter's words had done as he had urged them to do and "repented and were baptized" (Acts 2:38). That is, they changed their thinking - repented - about their need of salvation and about who Christ was, trusting in him as Savior and Lord. As a consequence of doing so, in reflection of their belief and resulting "second birth," those who received Peter's Gospel message were baptized, demonstrating (not achieving) their "new creature in Christ" status.

Here, the business of knowing and believing the truth of the Gospel - "receiving his word" - preceded and gave rise to baptism. This "ordo salutis" is always the case in the NT, belief in Christ, not baptism, the first and key step of a person's salvation. And so, we have the instance of the thief on the cross being saved but never water-baptized and the apostle Paul writing about how relieved he was to have not baptized most of the Christians at Corinth, though he preached the Gospel to them - an exceedingly strange thing to say if water-baptism was actually vital to salvation!

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

If water-baptism is integral to salvation, if it is the means of salvation, it's difficult to make sense of Paul's separation of it here from the Gospel. Essentially, if salvation-by-water-baptism is true, Paul was thankful to God that he had withheld salvation from the Corinthian believers!

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Of course, this isn't what Paul meant because he didn't think water-baptism was the key means of a person's salvation. And so, your third Scripture reference from Acts 2 doesn't seem to me to ground your salvation-by-baptism view, either. Instead, it implies what so many other places in Scripture indicate, which is that water-baptism is the result of salvation, a coupling of belief to action, a declaration of one's newfound fidelity to, and life in, Jesus Christ.

4. Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
(Rom 6:3-4)

Here, the "baptism" in view is explicitly and plainly spiritual, referring to one's placement in Christ by the Holy Spirit, to one's union with him in his death, burial and resurrection. Christ himself described this spiritual baptism by the Spirit:

Acts 1:4-5
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

What this actually looked like is described in Acts 2. It occurs without water-baptism, however.

Acts 2:1-4
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Here is the very first occasion of people receiving the "second birth," salvation by baptism into Christ by the Spirit (Romans 8:9-15; 1 John 4:13; Titus 3:5; John 14:16-17). Again, water-baptism is not involved.

So then, the passage you've offered from Romans 6 doesn't establish salvation-by-baptism at all, but refers to a spiritual event, not a physical one.

6. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 6:11)

This is yet another occasion where you've read into a Bible verse a preconceived idea about salvation-by-baptism. What's odd in your doing so here is that the verse explicitly indicates that the "washing, sanctification, and justification" of the Corinthian believers was "in the Spirit of our God." Paul went on to explain in greater detail what he meant, never mentioning water-baptism:

1 Corinthians 6:17-20
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

The washing, sanctification and justification in the Spirit is accomplished by his coming to dwell within the person who has trusted in Christ as Savior and Lord, making of them his "temple," and in himself imparting to them the life of Christ. (See: Romans 8:9-15) 1 Corinthians 6:11, then, has nothing to do with water-baptism.

7. “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)

This is yet a further example of your reading into a verse what isn't there. In context, the meaning of the verse becomes clear:

John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

In verse 5, Jesus described two kinds of birth: the physical kind to which Nicodemus had just referred ("born of water") and the spiritual kind to which he was referring ("and the Spirit"). In clarification of this, Jesus went on, further distinguishing the two kinds of birth from one another by saying, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." He then proceeds to emphasize, not water-baptism, but being "born of the Spirit," which is the sole means of spiritual regeneration, of salvation.

Again, I see no good grounds for a salvation-by-baptism view in the proof-text you've supplied from John 3.

I could go on through every bit of Scripture you cite, demonstrating, as I've just done, that they don't actually support a salvation-by-baptism doctrine but I think it should be clear to an honest seeker of the truth that such a doctrine is the product of eisegesis, not exegesis.

 

[WIP]

John was probably wondering why he had to baptise the one who come after him at that time, whos sandles he was not worthy to tie.

But Jesus was born and raised a Jew and was under the Law given to Moses and he was Israel from the tribe of Judah, so he took Johns baptism. He needed to be baptised himself because he is Israel and Israel needed to repent and John come baptising to and for Israel.

Im not Israel or under the law given to Moses. People are grafted into Israel but thats through Christ and his baptism.

Its just my opinion so bring some scripture if you would like to show me otherwise, im open to being corrected. Its just how i see it.

Jesus said it had to be done to fulfill righteousness. He also commanded that new believers throughout the world, which would include non-jews, be baptized (Matthew 28:19). So, it is only fitting that I follow His command. Even if one doesn't believe baptism can save, it's still commanded by God so....

Something to note. I searched the NKJV for the words baptize, baptism, and baptizing and the only place it shows up is the New Testament.

 

[for_his_glory]

Locking this for some clean up and will be reopened.

 

[Tenchi]

Hey, why was my second post showing salvation-by-baptism is false deleted but those posts contending with my first post and prompting my second post are left undeleted? This shows a distinct bias toward Roman Catholic doctrine that is not made plainly evident by the moderators and admins of this website. If I'd known this bias existed, I wouldn't have taken up posting on this website.

 

[Mungo]

Something to note. I searched the NKJV for the words baptize, baptism, and baptizing and the only place it shows up is the New Testament.

The origins of baptism are the ritual purification of full body washing known in Hebrew as tevilah in a mikvah (ritual bath). Mikvah means a gathering of water and so a river is a mikvah. Since rivers were not commonly available it was any suitable pool of water, but not a free standing bath in the modern sense. It had to be dug into the ground, or built into the structure of a building and should contain rainwater with a minimum of 77 gallons. Bathing should be by total immersion and naked to ensure every part of the body was purified.

When the Jews and Evangelists wrote in Greek they avoided the Greek words for bathe and bath because of the sexual connotations. The Greek communal bathing was a place of gossip (often crude), communal nudity and homosexuality. So they used the word baptizo (and it’s derivatives) instead. The word therefore expresses this ritual purification in water. It is unnecessary to say “water baptism” as water was integral to the process, just as it was unnecessary to say a water mikvar or a water tevilah. That is what baptism was and is.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hey, why was my second post showing salvation-by-baptism is false deleted but those posts contending with my first post and prompting my second post are left undeleted? This shows a distinct bias toward Roman Catholic doctrine that is not made plainly evident by the moderators and admins of this website. If I'd known this bias existed, I wouldn't have taken up posting on this website.

Please take this to TWTS as it will not be discussed here. Also give the forum, thread and post number in question.

 

[donadams]

God requires baptism!
Jn3:5 cannot enter
Mk 16:16 faith and baptism

Thanks

 

[Corn Pop]

I answered your question in post #2 but you just seem to have ignored it.
Also see post #8

I had read your posts and i wasnt ignoring i just had not replied.

There is 2 baptisms i can see. Johns through water and Christ buried and raised, the gospel preached, but im trying to figure out if i can clearly see that water is essential. I just find it hard to believe someone can recieve the gospel and be baptised in Christ through belief and faith, buried with him and raised, thats baptism, and scripture says people had the holy Spirit before water like whenPeter was called and went for a visit, but for some reason they must have water to be complete.

 

[Mungo]

I had read your posts and i wasnt ignoring i just had not replied.

There is 2 baptisms i can see. Johns through water and Christ buried and raised, the gospel preached,

John's "baptism" was OT baptism.That is why Paul had the disciples at Ephesus re-baptised "in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19)

but im trying to figure out if i can clearly see that water is essential. I just find it hard to believe someone can recieve the gospel and be baptised in Christ through belief and faith, buried with him and raised, thats baptism, and scripture says people had the holy Spirit before water like whenPeter was called and went for a visit, but for some reason they must have water to be complete.

Where does scripture say "someone can recieve the gospel and be baptised in Christ through belief and faith, buried with him and raised"?

 

[Corn Pop]

God requires baptism!
Jn3:5 cannot enter
Mk 16:16 faith and baptism

Thanks

What is Jesus talking about being born of the water and spirit and born again?. What does God say in prophecy?. Just my opinion that baptism of water and the spirit is symbolised.

Ezekiel 36:25-27


Obviosly God doesnt literally sprinkle water on people to clean them, and give them a literal heart transplant for people to be born again as Jesus spoke of. Water and spirit through the word.


Ephesians

"..to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,"

 

[donadams]

I had read your posts and i wasnt ignoring i just had not replied.

There is 2 baptisms i can see. Johns through water and Christ buried and raised, the gospel preached, but im trying to figure out if i can clearly see that water is essential. I just find it hard to believe someone can recieve the gospel and be baptised in Christ through belief and faith, buried with him and raised, thats baptism, and scripture says people had the holy Spirit before water like whenPeter was called and went for a visit, but for some reason they must have water to be complete.

Christian baptism is an outward sign of the inward action of grace, or merits of Christ’s passion blood and death applied to our souls!

We cannot see the inward action of grace purifying the soul, so God gave us the outward “sign” of water washing the body to indicate the inward action of grace and connected the two.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

God says baptism! Ez 36:25:27
Jesus Christ says baptism! Mk 16:16
Peter says baptism! Acts 3:38 1 Pet 3:21
Paul say baptism! 1 cor 1:16 1 cor 12:13
The apostles say baptism! Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38
For 2000 yrs the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always taught baptism per matt 28:19

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you…
acts 2:38-39 “this promise”

Thanks

 

[Corn Pop]

I have faith and i wash myself clean in the shower everyday. I will Baptise myself then. Next shower i will wash myself clean in the name of Jesus. Obviously i will just get dirty again.

 

[gordon777]

Look guys, to believe in Jesus rising from the dead, brings us to new life, baptism is by water, as the old world, or old man was and is condemned by being not saved by water, now you believe in being saved by water, or are also condemned with the old world/man.

If you want to talk on, as if it is important, go on.



2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 

[gordon777]

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[donadams]

I have faith and i wash myself clean in the shower everyday. I will Baptise myself then. Next shower i will wash myself clean in the name of Jesus.

No you can’t baptize yourself or enter the kingdom yourself!

Jn 3:5 cannot enter

The apostolic church provides for your initiation

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

By the spirit

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Put on christ

Gal 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Thanks

 

[gordon777]

No you can’t baptize yourself or enter the kingdom yourself!

Jn 3:5 cannot enter

The apostolic church provides for your initiation

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

By the spirit

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Put on christ

Gal 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Thanks

The Apostles church was taken over by wolves.


The entrance to the Kingdom is t believe in the love of Christ dying to save us from sins, washes in HUIs own blood, we do not need the wolves to lead anyone.





Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[Corn Pop]

Christ washes clean, not water. Can clean in water but just get dirty again. Gods clean with Water and Spirit is through Christ.

 

[gordon777]

Jesus did the works of rising from the dead, we believe in the same works, or have a dead faith.


John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.